Andrew Jackson said it best about secession and treason...

[whitepug6]

This is what he said to the people of South Carolina in 1832. He accurately predicted, in an unimagined future, the outcome of the Civil War:

"Disunion by armed force is treason," he declared. "Are you really ready to incur its guilt? If you are, on the heads of the instigators of the act be the dreadful consequences; on their heads be the dishonor, but on yours may fall the punishment. ... The consequence must be fearful for you, distressing to your fellow-citizens here and to the friends of good government throughout the world."

During the Nullification Crisis that year, Congress gave President Jackson approval to deal with the state government of South Carolina when it threatened to secede. Jackson informed Congress, "if so, I will meet at the threshold and have the leaders [of the South Carolina insurrection] arrested and arraigned for treason."

In his Second Inaugural Address of 1833, President Jackson insisted that the rights of the states, and the "integrity of the Union," depended upon "the duty of all to yield a ready and patriotic submission to the laws constitutionally enacted". He would remind them of the advice and solicitude of President George Washington:

You have been wisely admonished to "accustom yourselves to think and speak of the Union as of the palladium of your political safety and prosperity, watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety, discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion that it can in any event be abandoned, and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of any attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts." Without union our independence and liberty would never have been achieved; without union they never can be maintained.

 

[Thenumber34]

This is what he said to the people of South Carolina in 1832. He accurately predicted, in an unimagined future, the outcome of the Civil War:

"Disunion by armed force is treason," he declared. "Are you really ready to incur its guilt? If you are, on the heads of the instigators of the act be the dreadful consequences; on their heads be the dishonor, but on yours may fall the punishment. ... The consequence must be fearful for you, distressing to your fellow-citizens here and to the friends of good government throughout the world."

During the Nullification Crisis that year, Congress gave President Jackson approval to deal with the state government of South Carolina when it threatened to secede. Jackson informed Congress, "if so, I will meet at the threshold and have the leaders [of the South Carolina insurrection] arrested and arraigned for treason."

In his Second Inaugural Address of 1833, President Jackson insisted that the rights of the states, and the "integrity of the Union," depended upon "the duty of all to yield a ready and patriotic submission to the laws constitutionally enacted". He would remind them of the advice and solicitude of President George Washington:

You have been wisely admonished to "accustom yourselves to think and speak of the Union as of the palladium of your political safety and prosperity, watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety, discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion that it can in any event be abandoned, and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of any attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts." Without union our independence and liberty would never have been achieved; without union they never can be maintained.

Andrew Jackson was a drunk.

 

[FeralDawg]

And introduced wholesale slaughter to very people he signed treaties of peace with. That man killed more Indians than all the white mans diseases combined.
Whitepug, you never cease to amaze me when you choose 'sources'.
Yes, indeed, you are an academic type. Next you'll be quoting Sherman on
gentle treatment of opponents in war. Or Grant on methods of sobriety.

 

[wayx]

It was well known that states had the right to leave a union that they had voluntarily joined. In the early part of our country's history several Northern states seriously considered leaving the union for various reasons. Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island had threatened secession as far back as James Madison's administration. Also, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Delaware were threatening secession at different points during the first half of the nineteenth century.....long before South Carolina looked at it in the early 1n 1828 and 1832.

The ONLY reason Lincoln wanted to preserve the union was for the high tariffs they were extorting from the South. The south had about 30%
of the population but was paying over 70% of the tariffs being collected by the federal government. And that was the only tax revenue the feds had back then

As Lincoln said in a letter to Alexander Stephens....he would NEVER try to abolish the practice of slavery IF the Southern states would agree to stay in the union.

 

[UgaTom]

It was well known that states had the right to leave a union that they had voluntarily joined. In the early part of our country's history several Northern states seriously considered leaving the union for various reasons. Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island had threatened secession as far back as James Madison's administration. Also, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Delaware were threatening secession at different points during the first half of the nineteenth century.....long before South Carolina looked at it in the early 1n 1828 and 1832.

The ONLY reason Lincoln wanted to preserve the union was for the high tariffs they were extorting from the South. The south had about 30%
of the population but was paying over 70% of the tariffs being collected by the federal government. And that was the only tax revenue the feds had back then

As Lincoln said in a letter to Alexander Stephens....he would NEVER try to abolish the practice of slavery IF the Southern states would agree to stay in the union.

If states had a right to leave the union, then the union had the right to attempt to preserve it.

 

[ClyoDawg]

If states had a right to leave the union, then the union had the right to attempt to preserve it.

Kinda reminds me of the dawgvents and the 10 message boards it's spawned .... All of them end up coming back eventually though

 

[special]

This is what he said to the people of South Carolina in 1832. He accurately predicted, in an unimagined future, the outcome of the Civil War:

"Disunion by armed force is treason," he declared. "Are you really ready to incur its guilt? If you are, on the heads of the instigators of the act be the dreadful consequences; on their heads be the dishonor, but on yours may fall the punishment. ... The consequence must be fearful for you, distressing to your fellow-citizens here and to the friends of good government throughout the world."

During the Nullification Crisis that year, Congress gave President Jackson approval to deal with the state government of South Carolina when it threatened to secede. Jackson informed Congress, "if so, I will meet at the threshold and have the leaders [of the South Carolina insurrection] arrested and arraigned for treason."

In his Second Inaugural Address of 1833, President Jackson insisted that the rights of the states, and the "integrity of the Union," depended upon "the duty of all to yield a ready and patriotic submission to the laws constitutionally enacted". He would remind them of the advice and solicitude of President George Washington:

You have been wisely admonished to "accustom yourselves to think and speak of the Union as of the palladium of your political safety and prosperity, watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety, discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion that it can in any event be abandoned, and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of any attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts." Without union our independence and liberty would never have been achieved; without union they never can be maintained.

LOL. I gots you covered.

 

[StoneColdKillerDawg]

If states had a right to leave the union, then the union had the right to attempt to preserve it.

Sounds like an abusive relationship to me...

 

[whitepug6]

Andrew Jackson was a drunk.

What's your excuse?

 

[Thenumber34]

What's your excuse?

Excuse for what?

I'm not a maniacal killer of native Americans

 

[whitepug6]

And introduced wholesale slaughter to very people he signed treaties of peace with. That man killed more Indians than all the white mans diseases combined.
Whitepug, you never cease to amaze me when you choose 'sources'.
Yes, indeed, you are an academic type. Next you'll be quoting Sherman on
gentle treatment of opponents in war. Or Grant on methods of sobriety.

Nice attempt to change the subject, but this topic is SECESSION and TREASON.

No historical figure, particularly a politician, is perfect. As an army general and President of the United States, Jackson was insensitive and brutal toward native Americans. He was also a slave owner and murdered several men in personal duels.

You are like many on this message board who engage in black/white reasoning and judgement with regard to issues and personalities. Jackson's treatment of native Americans is but one of many facets of his career.

 

[whitepug6]

Excuse for what?

I'm not a maniacal killer of native Americans

You're also not a successful general in the United States Army or a two-term President of the United States. You are not depicted on the twenty-dollar bill, you are not defined by an era in American history (the Jacksonian Era), you are not the subject of hundreds of histories and biographies, and you are not remembered as one of the founders of the Democratic Party.

If you are a native Georgian and not descended from Cherokee ancestors, you can thank Jackson for making it possible for your forebears to settle in Georgia.

 

[Thenumber34]

Nice attempt to change the subject, but this topic is SECESSION and TREASON.

No historical figure, particularly a politician, is perfect. As an army general and President of the United States, Jackson was insensitive and brutal toward native Americans. He was also a slave owner and murdered several men in personal duels.

You are like many on this message board who engage in black/white reasoning and judgement with regard to issues and personalities. Jackson's treatment of native Americans is but one of many facets of his career.

'What's your excuse '....how is that reasoning?

 

[whitepug6]

'What's your excuse '....how is that reasoning?

It's the same kind of reasoning as throwing out a stupid comment like, "He was a drunk."

 

[whitepug6]

In April 1830, a visitor to the White House from South Carolina asked President Jackson if he had any message he wanted relayed to his friends in the state.

Jackson replied, "Yes I have; please give my compliments to my friends in your State and say to them, that if a single drop of blood shall be shed there in opposition to the laws of the United States, I will hang the first man I can lay my hand on engaged in such treasonable conduct, upon the first tree I can reach."

In some ways, it might have been better for the United States if President Jackson had called South Carolina's bluff.

 

[FeralDawg]

Not changing the topic at all, BUT if you want to quote an authority
on being faithful and respectful to agreements among people please pick a better figure than a lightning rod( that's soon to be replaced on our currency by a woman if the PC crowd has it's way).

 

[FeralDawg]

Like having OCD give a discourse in posting with perfect grammer.
You still absconded from the discourse of all the best minds of that age to
the "Your people are traitors" finger pointing with a new post on the same level
as the last.
Way to win the hearts and minds. You may be educated, but you are what
the English call Too clever by half.

 

[whitepug6]

Not changing the topic at all, BUT if you want to quote an authority
on being faithful and respectful to agreements among people please pick a better figure than a lightning rod( that's soon to be replaced on our currency by a woman if the PC crowd has it's way).

Well, that's your opinion. I happen to admire some aspects of Andrew Jackson's life, particularly the fact that he was a self-made man. He was a fighter on the battlefield, volunteering for service at the age of 13 during the Revolutionary War and suffering torture at the hands of British and loyalist troops. He was a winner on the battlefield against a diversity of adversaries, including native Americans, British, and Spanish troops. I do believe Jackson is unfairly singled out for the Indian Removal Act, since Congress originated and passed the legislation. He was a staunch believer in the United States of America.

On the negative side, Jackson defied the ruling of the Supreme Court, he opposed the Bank of the United States, and his naive banking policies contributed to the Panic of 1837.

 

[whitepug6]

Like having OCD give a discourse in posting with perfect grammer.
You still absconded from the discourse of all the best minds of that age to
the "Your people are traitors" finger pointing with a new post on the same level
as the last.
Way to win the hearts and minds. You may be educated, but you are what
the English call Too clever by half.

I don't claim to be clever. I do understand Article III, Section 3 of the US Constitution. Treason is defined as making war against the United States. Every confederate, from Jefferson Davis to the lowliest private soldier, was guilty of treason against their country. The people of the United States do not honor Benedict Arnold for his actions, nor should they honor any confederate soldier. They committed the same crime.

 

[FeralDawg]

If you went to West Point you would see that they do indeed honor
the field commanders of our Confederate soldiers. The reverence for
the tactics and actions they took are honored worldwide.
Just because YOU see this in ONLY black and white is your problem.
If your logic is sound, then by definition we are all descended from Traitors for our actions against England.
It only stands to reason. We had pieces of paper that stated we would remain loyal as her colony.

 

[whitepug6]

If you went to West Point you would see that they do indeed honor
the field commanders of our Confederate soldiers. The reverence for
the tactics and actions they took are honored worldwide.
Just because YOU see this in ONLY black and white is your problem.
If your logic is sound, then by definition we are all descended from Traitors for our actions against England.
It only stands to reason. We had pieces of paper that stated we would remain loyal as her colony.

I did not go to West Point, but I did get a BA in history from UGA, an MMAS from the US Army Command and General Staff College, and an MA in military history from UNC. I am a professional military historian so I know whereof I speak.
You are apparently not a professional military historian so let me explain to you that there is a huge difference between studying strategy and tactics and honoring or revering strategy and tactics. Amateurs "honor" and "revere" the past; professionals see beyond such a one-sided view and take a balanced approach that acknowledges both the good and the bad.

The matter of treason is very straightforward in the US Constitution. It does not require a constitutional lawyer to understand that the act of taking up arms against the United States constitutes treason. Every confederate was a traitor.

The founders of this country did indeed commit high treason against the King in his realm. Had they failed in their revolution, every founder from John Hancock to George Washington would have been drawn and quartered and their families hung. Here is the key difference between the founders and the confederates: the founders took up arms against the British empire and won. The confederates took up arms against the United States and lost. Successful revolutionaries earn the right to call themselves whatever they want; unsuccessful revolutionaries are lighted down as traitors to their country to the latest generation.

 

[whitepug6]

It was well known that states had the right to leave a union that they had voluntarily joined. In the early part of our country's history several Northern states seriously considered leaving the union for various reasons. Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island had threatened secession as far back as James Madison's administration. Also, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Delaware were threatening secession at different points during the first half of the nineteenth century.....long before South Carolina looked at it in the early 1n 1828 and 1832.

The ONLY reason Lincoln wanted to preserve the union was for the high tariffs they were extorting from the South. The south had about 30%
of the population but was paying over 70% of the tariffs being collected by the federal government. And that was the only tax revenue the feds had back then

As Lincoln said in a letter to Alexander Stephens....he would NEVER try to abolish the practice of slavery IF the Southern states would agree to stay in the union.

If it is so "well known" that states have a right to leave the union, perhaps you could provide some supporting evidence! George Washington, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton would disagree with you, but what do they know?

And if it is true that Lincoln promised to never abolish slavery if southern states stayed in the union, then why did they leave? Perhaps you could provide some supporting evidence?

 

[doofusdawg]

If it is so "well known" that states have a right to leave the union, perhaps you could provide some supporting evidence! George Washington, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton would disagree with you, but what do they know?

And if it is true that Lincoln promised to never abolish slavery if southern states stayed in the union, then why did they leave? Perhaps you could provide some supporting evidence?

you should get your own blog.

 

[whitepug6]

you should get your own blog.

I have my own blog about the Vietnam War, and I contribute to several military history blogs.

 

[DeafDawg.]

I have my own blog about the Vietnam War, and I contribute to several military history blogs.

Post up ass dragger so we can continue this unabated.

 

[whitepug6]

Post up ass dragger so we can continue this unabated.

YAYYY! You learned to use a new word! "Unabated." And you used it correctly in a sentence! YOU DID GOOD.

 

[DeafDawg.]

YAYYY! You learned to use a new word! "Unabated." And you used it correctly in a sentence! YOU DID GOOD.

Your mother just told me that. Thanks!

 

[whitepug6]

Your mother just told me that. Thanks!

Nothing substantial to offer? Figures.

 

[DeafDawg.]

Nothing substantial to offer? Figures.

Substantial? Like your blog that you won't link? Oh, OK. I bet it's awesome.

 

[FeralDawg]

If you haven't read Lincolns famous quotes on slavery then you don't even need to post here. I am starting to doubt you more and more. You are merely
an interested party of quasi-liberal nature.
And people gave you the proof that at least 3 Northern states had clauses for succession but you are so busy trying to BE right that you don't care to see anything but black and white. You aren't trying to do anything but stir.
And traitors down to the latest generation? I am the first of my line not to serve.
And we have fought in every war for this soil from the time we arrived. YOU
don't get to decide who is a traitor. My kind paid their dues, professor.
Good luck with your pot.

 

[whitepug6]

If you haven't read Lincolns famous quotes on slavery then you don't even need to post here. I am starting to doubt you more and more. You are merely
an interested party of quasi-liberal nature.
And people gave you the proof that at least 3 Northern states had clauses for succession but you are so busy trying to BE right that you don't care to see anything but black and white. You aren't trying to do anything but stir.
And traitors down to the latest generation? I am the first of my line not to serve.
And we have fought in every war for this soil from the time we arrived. YOU
don't get to decide who is a traitor. My kind paid their dues, professor.
Good luck with your pot.

I have read plenty of Lincoln's quotes on slavery and they represent accurately his viewpoint. What do you want me to say about them?

I have already addressed your point regarding the northern states that attempted to conditionally ratify the US Constitution with clauses providing for secession if the conditions were not met. In the case of New York, anti-Federalists dominated the constitutional convention and attempted to insert language in their ratification message to Congress that " "there should be reserved to the state of New York a right to withdraw herself from the union after a certain number of years." Alexander Hamilton, a delegate to the convention, then produced a letter from Congressman James Madison who replied, "the Constitution requires an adoption in toto, and for ever" [emphasis added]. Hamilton then told the Convention that in Congress' view, reserving "a right to withdraw [was] inconsistent with the Constitution, and was no ratification."
The New York convention, as the other states ultimately did, ratified the Constitution without the right to withdraw language.

You do not understand language very well, so I will simplify my writing so that you can plainly understand what I meant in an earlier post:

Revolutionaries who lose their bid for independence will be branded as traitors, and history will record them as such so that every successive generation will know what they did.

Finally, I do not decide who is and isn't a traitor. The US Constitution does.

 

[wayx]

If it is so "well known" that states have a right to leave the union, perhaps you could provide some supporting evidence! George Washington, James Madison, and Alexander Hamilton would disagree with you, but what do they know?

And if it is true that Lincoln promised to never abolish slavery if southern states stayed in the union, then why did they leave? Perhaps you could provide some supporting evidence?

Guess you missed the part about the South wanting to leave the union because of the unfair tariffs put on the South. You know the thing about the South having about 30% of the population but paying over 70 of the taxes the North ...all from unreasonably high tariffs.

 

[UgaTom]

The matter of treason is very straightforward in the US Constitution. It does not require a constitutional lawyer to understand that the act of taking up arms against the United States constitutes treason. Every confederate was a traitor.

Technically, the Southern states did not take up arms against the United States. They wanted to leave peacefully. When it became clear that they would not be allowed to do so, they did fire the first shot, but as a separate country.

The founders of this country did indeed commit high treason against the King in his realm. Had they failed in their revolution, every founder from John Hancock to George Washington would have been drawn and quartered and their families hung. Here is the key difference between the founders and the confederates: the founders took up arms against the British empire and won. The confederates took up arms against the United States and lost. Successful revolutionaries earn the right to call themselves whatever they want; unsuccessful revolutionaries are lighted down as traitors to their country to the latest generation.

Again, the Southern states were not technically revolutionaries. They did not want to overthrow the United States government. Since the victorious side in the Civil War welcomed the Southern states back into the union, citizens and soldiers alike, without penalty, they were not considered traitors then and should not be considered such now.

 

[FeralDawg]

I understand language very well. I understand the conditions you choose to
understand it as well. It's easy to simply dismiss what you don't care to notice
as I see from your posts. It's black and whitepug only from where you sit.
That's cool. Easier to process I guess.

 

[Rolodawg2011]

This is what he said to the people of South Carolina in 1832. He accurately predicted, in an unimagined future, the outcome of the Civil War:

"Disunion by armed force is treason," he declared. "Are you really ready to incur its guilt? If you are, on the heads of the instigators of the act be the dreadful consequences; on their heads be the dishonor, but on yours may fall the punishment. ... The consequence must be fearful for you, distressing to your fellow-citizens here and to the friends of good government throughout the world."

During the Nullification Crisis that year, Congress gave President Jackson approval to deal with the state government of South Carolina when it threatened to secede. Jackson informed Congress, "if so, I will meet at the threshold and have the leaders [of the South Carolina insurrection] arrested and arraigned for treason."

In his Second Inaugural Address of 1833, President Jackson insisted that the rights of the states, and the "integrity of the Union," depended upon "the duty of all to yield a ready and patriotic submission to the laws constitutionally enacted". He would remind them of the advice and solicitude of President George Washington:

You have been wisely admonished to "accustom yourselves to think and speak of the Union as of the palladium of your political safety and prosperity, watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety, discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion that it can in any event be abandoned, and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of any attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts." Without union our independence and liberty would never have been achieved; without union they never can be maintained.

WGAS?

 

[whitepug6]

Guess you missed the part about the South wanting to leave the union because of the unfair tariffs put on the South. You know the thing about the South having about 30% of the population but paying over 70 of the taxes the North ...all from unreasonably high tariffs.

If that were true, then how do you explain the Tariff of 1857, which passed Congress with support from Republicans, Democrats, northerners and southerners?

 

[whitepug6]

WGAS?

The response of a willfully ignorant person.

 

[whitepug6]

Technically, the Southern states did not take up arms against the United States. They wanted to leave peacefully. When it became clear that they would not be allowed to do so, they did fire the first shot, but as a separate country.


Again, the Southern states were not technically revolutionaries. They did not want to overthrow the United States government. Since the victorious side in the Civil War welcomed the Southern states back into the union, citizens and soldiers alike, without penalty, they were not considered traitors then and should not be considered such now.

LOL, "technically". Robert E. Lee disagrees with you. This is from a letter he wrote to his son Custis Lee on 23 Jan 1861:

"As an American citizen, I take great pride in my country, her prosperity and her institutions, and would defend any State if her rights were invaded. But I can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than the dissolution of the Union. It would be an accumulation of all the evils we complain of, and I am willing to sacrifice everything but honor for its preservation. I hope, therefore, that all constitutional means will be exhausted before there is a resort to force. Secession is nothing but revolution."

 

[UgaTom]

LOL, "technically". Robert E. Lee disagrees with you. This is from a letter he wrote to his son Custis Lee on 23 Jan 1861:

"As an American citizen, I take great pride in my country, her prosperity and her institutions, and would defend any State if her rights were invaded. But I can anticipate no greater calamity for the country than the dissolution of the Union. It would be an accumulation of all the evils we complain of, and I am willing to sacrifice everything but honor for its preservation. I hope, therefore, that all constitutional means will be exhausted before there is a resort to force. Secession is nothing but revolution."

I was mistaken. Like the American Revolution, the Southern states wanted to get out from under their "rulers" and establish their own government. That still does not rise to the level of treason. The Southern states did not want to overthrow the United States government. The Southern states did not want to make war against the United States. My point about the Southern states being welcomed back into the Union and not looked upon as having committed treason still stands.

 

[Rolodawg2011]

The response of a willfully ignorant person.

The best response to a woefully stupid person