Zelinsky is on the campaign trail with Kameltoe
I've been a supporter of Ukraine until now
- Thread starter UGAly
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I still have no idea what the end game is here ? Ukraine is basically destroyed. Hundreds of thousands are dead. Culture in ruins. Corrupt leadership.
What’s next?
What’s next?
Follow the money - for Blackrock and JP Morgan, that is. Billions upon billions still to be made and it only cost us taxpayers funding it and of course 1 million Ukrainians who died needlessly. Pure evil.
No telling the amount of $$ politicians from both American parties have received from this funding fiasco......
No secret, Harris says Ukraine must be supported. Trump refused to say Ukraine should win the war. Trump says good things about Putin.
In the interview with Tucker, Putin mentioned Poland 13 times.
Eastern Ukraine and Crimea have tremendous oil and natural reserves,...it's the same reason Russia conquered them,...let's stop pretending that it is about the people there,...it's about the resources,...if east Ukraine and Crimea had no natural resources,.then we would not.be in this predicament
Foreign countries involving themselves in our elections is OK now I guess. Trump will end that war but I am not convinced(now more than ever) that Zelensky actually wants that. He likes being a celebrity and knows he and his family have a billion dollar parachute that will drop them into the US or EU when things go south.
Ok. I am just a simple man. Hot rocks and all. Explain it to me like I'm just really really warm rock: Why should US taxpayers continue to be burdened by a doomed war effort when instead we can simply decide to ask what can be, unburdened by what has been...already lost in Ukraine?
Again. Simple man here, just trying not to catch my rock-ing chair on fire.
Trump said several times that he is in favor of ending the war quickly and stopping the loss of lives. How evil can one man be?
Josh Shapiro signing artillery shells smiling like a focking kid at Disney World was repulsive even by 2024 political standards.
My guess is he refused to say that because everyone knows that Ukraine has zero chance of winning the war. This is not that hard.
Ending wars, preventing further loss of life, and stopping the enrichment of American Oligarchs/War-Mongers is evil.
Also, mean tweets.
The war in Ukraine is lost if we cut off aid and give Putin exactly what he wants. The reason it is in our best interest to prevent that is because Putin is like every other power hungry autocrat who is never satisfied by accommodation. The land isn’t the point, he’ll never be satisfied. He’s said he wants to reconstitute the former USSR. Why wouldn’t we believe him?
Sure, and Britain could have ended WW2 by allowing Hitler to take all of continental Europe unopposed…and that would have e worked right up to the point Hitler decided he wanted more. It wouldn’t have been long.
The GOP used to understand how this all worked far better than the Dems. Now the party is made up of Neville Chamberlains who think accommodating Putin will allow us to make America First. That’s wrong and he’s no different from any other rapacious dictators through history. We can bleed him dry through a proxy war willingly fought by others or we can fight him directly when he goes after Poland.
Y’all should learn more about the accommodationists in this country before WW2. We don’t learn much about that in high school history because it’s shameful how many people in the country strongly opposed our involvement for in WW2 because they thought Hitler no better or worse than any other European power as well as those who were downright enthusiastic about Hitler’s views (Lindbergh being one of the most prominent but far from the only).
For those of you recently praising Reagan’s efforts to end the evil empire of the USSR, if you don’t also support Ukraine against Putin’s invasion, your cognitive dissonance is irreconcilable.
Okay. But, also like every "power hungry autocrat" that has nuclear weapons, at what point do we cross the rubicon? How much of your daily budget are you willing to sacrifice to support a country whose citizens no longer live there? How much of your monthly paycheck are you willing to give up to fund a war that is effectively lost? 20, 40, 60%? Evil cannot win, right?
How about you and your children grab a gun and go fight the evil Russians? He's just as bad as Hitler, right? We should all be signing up.
What is "winning"? How far are you willing to go to "defeat" Russia? Nuclear weapons? US troops on the ground, dying for Ukraine? WWIII? Are you willing to give up your American Dream? What is the upper limit?
I hear lots of platitudes with no actual plan. But I am just a simple man, made of hot rocks. I cannot even write on paper. It just burns.
Again, I'm not complicated in my thinking. But, from my own high-temp and rock-pressured memory, your summary is severely flawed. Even my Magma brothers (who I rarely listen to, since they have never witnessed the surface) think you are twisting your summaries to fit your Ukraine-specific argument. Frankly, it's unconvincing. Their words, not mine.
Putin is evil. Very Bad. But, lacks any actual ability to expand his desires at this point beyond engaging in nuclear war. How would he project power? Towards what country? Without any use of nuclear weapons?
Rocks are easy. Simple. Heat them up, they melt. But, I'm not smart enough to figure out you non-Lava-Men. Plate Tectonics are way easier to understand.
Zelensky owes the US Treasury Secretary some serious oral sex. Show some appreciation. Lap that thang.
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Do you think Ukraine will win a war vs Russia/Putin?
You remind me of Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer. That’s as high a compliment as I can offer.
Now, on to Putin and Ukraine.
Sure, Putin has nukes. If we tried to invade Russia and take Moscow, he just might use some tactical nukes. But that’s not what we are talking about. We are talking about containing Putin within his internationally recognized borders, and forcing him to respect the borders of the other European countries. Putin knows full well that if he were to use nukes under those circumstances we would wipe him and his country from the face of the earth. He’s power-mad but he isn’t a zealot.
All of the dire scenarios you listed are exactly what we are trying to avoid by giving Ukraine what they need to defend themselves. You may have noticed some rather spectacular explosions in the last week as Ukraine blew up huge stores of Russian ammunition. They are doing real damage. Putin is vulnerable and his army is getting weaker every day, which helps us avoid full scale war and all those other things you listed. If that’s what you want, keep arming Ukraine. We can pay now or pay more later.
Now, let’s talk Trump. What do you notice about this speech today? Who is the one person he didn’t bother to blame for the war? The guy who is entirely responable for an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign neighbor.
So thoughtful that he wants to save the Ukrainians from themselves by hanging them out to dry and forcing them to cede territory to a war criminal. The Nobel Peace Prize awaits.
Why is Trump so entirely unwilling to assign any of the blame to Putin? I don’t know, but it’s beyond curious.
It just boggles the mind with how supportive Trump has been to Ukraine in this whole mess that they could actually support Harris.
Zelensky extended a request to meet with Trump and Speaker Johnson and they both refused. And now they are pissed he met with the people who agreed to meet (Dems) with him and toured a munitions plant to thank the workers there for helping his country fight off an invasion by a war criminal.
You sure about that rescinding of support for Ukraine?
Just unbelievable with Trump's full support behind Ukraine during this period. How could Z have betrayed Donnie?
Trump criticizes the US and Ukraine and blames both for the war while refusing to place ANY of the blame with his buddy Putin. It’s beyond amazing and obvious what’s going on.
The war in Ukraine is already lost Will. Ukraine is destroyed.
Seriously asking- when does it end?
Hes become so wealthy as has Russia that it would literally take decades to bleed him dry. At some point there has to be an end game, dont you agree?
If Putin wanted Poland, whats he waiting on? The current us POTUS is out to lunch and his replacement is a foreign policy mental midget. Now would be the perfect time for more invasions.
Europe are a bunch of pansies, what are they gonna do? Strongly worded letters?
Europe are a bunch of pansies, what are they gonna do? Strongly worded letters?
Russia has committed a very small portion of their army to Ukraine. Don't let the media fool you. When I say small, I mean less than 20%. This comes from someone in our own military that knows and is in my family (and yes, he is in intelligence). If they wanted Ukraine, they could have it tomorrow - just like they did with Crimea. We are sending our munitions to Ukraine faster than we can manufacture and replace such in our arsenal. One specific anti-tank missile has been exhausted and we have none. Small ammunition is not the problem. It's larger ammunition and equipment. We are being bled out very slowly. The fall of Ukraine is inevitable. Do we think the Ukrainians will defeat Russia? The real elephant in the room isn't Ukraine. That's the side show. The Chinese are the problem.
JC
JC
So, the US is being "bled out slowly" when Russia has over 500k causalities, faces recruitment problems and has lost over 5000 tanks, 10,000 armored personal carriers and a very meaningful number of planes and other weapons systems.
The Russian economy is approximately 7% of the size of the US economy. But we are getting bled out?
If Russia could end the war tomorrow with all of Ukraine, what's stopping them? This "Three days to Kiev" war is now in its third year and isn't exactly helping Putin at home or abroad.
You are a student of history, which makes you more knowledgeable than probably anyone here on all of these issues. But it also likely provides some bias towards that history, i.e. "history will repeat itself if.....".
I would argue that Adolf Hitler, a man who openly wanted to conquer the world, wipe out the Jewish population, etc.......invading England, France, etc....our biggest Western allies....is a far cry from Putin trying to take back old Soviet territory from Ukraine - a country who most Americans prior to this war likely would not have been able to identify as an ally. And most importantly, is not in NATO. I guarantee you if Putin went into the UK there would be unanimous support in this country to get our own military involved, stop him in his tracks, and wipe his ass out.
I won't argue the merits of Ukraine winning, deterring Putin, etc. The argument is whether or not this war is winnable without endangering American lives? Bottom line is that there is a real chance that the only thing we will have to show for billions being sent to Ukraine is the hundreds of thousands of lives lost for a cause that didn't work out.
Ive never been a supporter of that war. It was created by Joe and Obama by overthrowing the true govt there and then trying to turn them into a member of NATO. Then all the weapons are bought and paid for by American tax dollars its been a money laundering scheme on a grand level by our government.
One of my favorite sayings is that “history doesn’t repeat, but it does rhyme“ and I think that applies here.
Reminder, hindsight is 20/20 and very few people were saying in ‘37 or ‘38 that Hitler wanted to conquer the world or was going to be directly responsible for many millions of deaths. His annexation of Austria was simply a “unification” of German-speaking peoples. The annexation of the Sudetenland, when Chamberlain traded much of Czechoslovakia for “peace in our time” was explained away as Hitler simply needing more land for an overpopulated Germany. Only in hindsight do we see that Hitler attacked Poland despite knowing it would pull the allies into a global war and then was stupid enough to attack Russia when he should have focused on defeating the UK and not opening himself to a two front war.
Putin’s history is clear. Ask the Baltic states or Poland if they think Putin will stop if rewarded with Ukrainian territory. They will say absolutely not, because they remember what Russia has been doing to those countries for hundreds of years. And, Putin has been open about his aims.
As I said above, the idea that a murderous dictator in Europe remaining unposed is going to save US lives doesn’t hold up. That’s exactly what we were saying right up until December 7th, 1941.
The primary reason the last seventy five years has been so prosperous for the planet in general and the US specifically is because we have been able to project enough power abroad to keep people like Putin in check. We shouldn’t stop now, and if we do the dictator is going to do what most dictators do.
Finally, something I can agree with. I wonder which candidate would project the most power? Let's review history and take note of the times Putin and others have taken their shots and under which administrations this was done.
My biggest question in all of this. Why do we foot the majority of cost. If everyone impacted would step up to the plate, it would be much easier to digest. Are we the only country that knows how to print money we don’t have ? I don’t get it
The US has provided about $75b in total funding and Europe is at about $100b.
Also, much of that $75b has been in the form of older weapons systems that we are replacing with new equipment. So while Russia has been degraded, we are actually upgrading.
I assume it's just a typo, but the US total is at $175 Billion at the moment.
Putin knows he is vastly outmatched by NATO even if he had those aims. Hitler had what at the time seemed like an unstoppable military machine given his early success in Poland Russia and France.
Putin wants former Soviet territory and believes he can get away with it because it isn’t NATO.
I just don’t see the parallels between he and Hitler / Germany in the 30’s at all. And I don’t see the end game here.
