Rejecting the liberal view of history

[OriginalGatorHator]

One of my biggest pet peeves with Conservatives is they completely buy the liberal view of the world and of history. Do your own research. Slavery is not original sin, was not evil, and they way America ended slavery was disgraceful. If you feel ashamed of your ancestory because of some lefty history professor who wants to exterminate you and your family you may want to stop and think if they actually know more about the confederacy than every original source and historian up until 1967.

Likewise go read about Weimar Germany. Mustache Man did some bad things but he’s not evil incarnate, is not the end result of nationalism, and is far less dangerous than Mao, Stalin, Lenin (pick a communist). What we’ve done to the German people is shameful.

 

[mitchelldawg]

This should be fun......smdh

 

[shonuff253]

Someone is feeling saucy today.

 

[OriginalGatorHator]

Someone is feeling saucy today.

I frequently get lost in the sauce

 

[wwforest]

One of my biggest pet peeves with Conservatives is they completely buy the liberal view of the world and of history. Do your own research. Slavery is not original sin, was not evil, and they way America ended slavery was disgraceful. If you feel ashamed of your ancestory because of some lefty history professor who wants to exterminate you and your family you may want to stop and think if they actually know more about the confederacy than every original source and historian up until 1967.

Likewise go read about Weimar Germany. Mustache Man did some bad things but he’s not evil incarnate, is not the end result of nationalism, and is far less dangerous than Mao, Stalin, Lenin (pick a communist). What we’ve done to the German people is shameful.

I think this the second time in the last month or two you have come in here to defend Hitler. Is this what you are really trying to do? Or am I misreading your comments?

 

[OriginalGatorHator]

I think this the second time in the last month or two you have come in here to defend Hitler. Is this what you are really trying to do? Or am I misreading your comments?

Obviously I’m not defending him.

My issue is with how Hitler is portrayed in western civilization has built him into an almost mythical status. He’s replaced the Devil or has become synonymous with the Devil.

This mythical status allows other characteristics that hitler had such as nationalism and putting his people’s welfare first to be denigrated as being evil.

Hitler wasn’t a bad dude because he loved the Germans and wanted to fight for them. He was a bad dude because he started murdering Jews, Gypsies, etc.

Edit. I’ll add as more of a broader point I enjoy discussing history and currently there is only one tolerable viewpoint to hold about Nazi Germany I.e. everything they did was bad and evil. This annoys me as you can’t even discuss the reasons why the Nazis came to power.

 

[wwforest]

Obviously I’m not defending him.

My issue is with how Hitler is portrayed in western civilization has built him into an almost mythical status. He’s replaced the Devil or has become synonymous with the Devil.

This mythical status allows other characteristics that hitler had such as nationalism and putting his people’s welfare first to be denigrated as being evil.

Hitler wasn’t a bad dude because he loved the Germans and wanted to fight for them. He was a bad dude because he started murdering Jews, Gypsies, etc.

Edit. I’ll add as more of a broader point I enjoy discussing history and currently there is only one tolerable viewpoint to hold about Nazi Germany I.e. everything they did was bad and evil. This annoys me as you can’t even discuss the reasons why the Nazis came to power.

Hitler did bring Germany out of a terrible depression. He initially was good for Germany. He also initially said no one should hate the Jews because of their religion (in the 20s), believe it or not. But is atrocities during the war and his final solution of killing of 6 million Jews make him as evil as any other mad man in history. Granted he did not kill 100 million people. But you do have to put many World War II deaths as his fault.

The following teaching/podcast by David Pawson is actually an excellent lead up and history of Hitler and what he did for Germany and why Germany followed him. The first 30 minutes or so explain his rise to power. Overall it is an incredible 3 hour teaching on Lessons from the Holocaust for Jews and Christians.

But this podcast actually does illustrate the beginning of Hitler's power and why it was initially good for Germany, as you mention in your last paragraph.

David Pawson - Lessons of the Holocaust for Jews and Christians

 

[OriginalGatorHator]

Hitler did bring Germany out of a terrible depression. He initially was good for Germany. He also initially said no one should hate the Jews because of their religion (in the 20s), believe it or not. But is atrocities during the war and his final solution of killing of 6 million Jews make him as evil as any other mad man in history. Granted he did not kill 100 million people. But you do have to put many World War II deaths as his fault.

The following teaching/podcast by David Pawson is actually an excellent lead up and history of Hitler and what he did for Germany and why Germany followed him. The first 30 minutes or so explain his rise to power. Overall it is an incredible 3 hour teaching on Lessons from the Holocaust for Jews and Christians. But this actually does illustrate, in the beginning of Hitler's power, your last paragraph.

David Pawson - Lessons of the Holocaust for Jews and Christians

Appreciate the response will give it a listen.

 

[atlanta cock#]

Obviously I’m not defending him.

My issue is with how Hitler is portrayed in western civilization has built him into an almost mythical status. He’s replaced the Devil or has become synonymous with the Devil.

This mythical status allows other characteristics that hitler had such as nationalism and putting his people’s welfare first to be denigrated as being evil.

Hitler wasn’t a bad dude because he loved the Germans and wanted to fight for them. He was a bad dude because he started murdering Jews, Gypsies, etc.

Edit. I’ll add as more of a broader point I enjoy discussing history and currently there is only one tolerable viewpoint to hold about Nazi Germany I.e. everything they did was bad and evil. This annoys me as you can’t even discuss the reasons why the Nazis came to power.

Have you lost whatever is left of your mind? Hitler is not evil incarnate? WTF? Dude I'm putting you on block before I say something that gets me banned.

 

[shonuff253]

This is the natural evolution for those arguing there's nothing wrong with nationalism...that Hitler and is idea, other than the Final Solution, weren't that bad.

 

[OriginalGatorHator]

This is the natural evolution for those arguing there's nothing wrong with nationalism...that Hitler and is idea, other than the Final Solution, weren't that bad.

This is actually illustrative of the issue with the liberal view of history. America first naturally leads to another final solution is consistent with a liberal world view, I think it's nonsense and incredibly damaging but it is consistent.

 

[nice marmot]

This should be fun......smdh

putting his people’s welfare first to be denigrated as being evil.

"putting his people’s welfare first"

it shouldn't need to be said, but there were over 500,000 German Jews. either emigrated or exterminated or nearly so.

under no circumstances can Hitler be said to have put his people's welfare first. It can't even be said that he put his soldiers' welfare first. etc

this not to mention the quelling effect on those who might have cared for or loved the many (not just Jews) that the reich persecuted.

 

[OriginalGatorHator]

"putting his people’s welfare first"

it shouldn't need to be said, but there were over 500,000 German Jews. either emigrated or exterminated or nearly so.

under no circumstances can Hitler be said to have put his people's welfare first. It can't even be said that he put his soldiers' welfare first. etc

I think it’s a little naive to pretend like Hitler did not love the Germans. He invaded the Rhineland and Poland, in part because of the Germans living there.

Looking backwards through time with lens of 2023 we consider the Jews living in Germany during the 30s Germans but the belief that Jews were Germans was not widely held at the time.

As to Hitler caring about the welfare of the German soldiers he certainly callously and carelessly sent them into the meat grinder of Stalingrad and made an insane attack at the battle of the bulge. But he certainly believed in that the German people were extraordinary and the heirs of Rome.

 

[wwforest]

Trivia question. Who spoke this:

“What shall we do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? First, their synagogues should be set on fire. … Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. …We ought to drive the rascally lazy bones out of our system. … Therefore away with them. … so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden – the Jews.”

 

[OriginalGatorHator]

Trivia question. Who spoke this:

“What shall we do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? First, their synagogues should be set on fire. … Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. …We ought to drive the rascally lazy bones out of our system. … Therefore away with them. … so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden – the Jews.”

I believe Martin Luther

 

[wwforest]

I believe Martin Luther

Correct. And Hitler just repeated Luther. Kristallnacht occurred on Luther's Birthday.

 

[atlanta cock#]

This is the natural evolution for those arguing there's nothing wrong with nationalism...that Hitler and is idea, other than the Final Solution, weren't that bad.

I don't agree that nationalism is to blame. This deflects from the true problem. For if so, being a fan of UGA, USC and any other school, state or institution could be falsely blamed for a host of issues. The poster is badly misguided or anti-Semitic, or both.

 

[SLC_Dawg]

Obviously I’m not defending him.

My issue is with how Hitler is portrayed in western civilization has built him into an almost mythical status. He’s replaced the Devil or has become synonymous with the Devil.

This mythical status allows other characteristics that hitler had such as nationalism and putting his people’s welfare first to be denigrated as being evil.

Hitler wasn’t a bad dude because he loved the Germans and wanted to fight for them. He was a bad dude because he started murdering Jews, Gypsies, etc.

Edit. I’ll add as more of a broader point I enjoy discussing history and currently there is only one tolerable viewpoint to hold about Nazi Germany I.e. everything they did was bad and evil. This annoys me as you can’t even discuss the reasons why the Nazis came to power.

The Fuhrer was a wonderful dancer.

 

[SLC_Dawg]

He and his ilk killed over 16,000,000 Jews and his own people, and various others. Somewhere between 35,000,000 and 60,000,000 civilians died in WWII, in additional to about 15,000,000 military. To say he wasn’t a bad guy clearly shows lack of critical thinking skills. I don’t know, I was born shortly afterward. My uncles fought in the war, one a captain, one a sergeant. I knew a lot of men that fought in the war, mostly as Marines in the Pacific. I worked with many too. Nobody I knew back then would describe him less than a stupid butcher.

 

[OriginalGatorHator]

He and his ilk killed over 16,000,000 Jews and his own people. Somewhere between 35,000,000 and 60,000,000 died in WWII, in additional to about 15,000,000 military. To say he wasn’t a bad guy clearly shows lack of critical thinking skills.

can you point out where I said he wasn't a bad guy?

 

[SLC_Dawg]

can you point out where I said he wasn't a bad guy?

You said straight out that he wasn’t all bad.

 

[WyoDawg307]

If we want to talk about "whitewashed history", let's talk about how IBM, Prescott Bush (W's grandfather) and the bank he worked for -Brown Brothers Harriman, all profited from 1930's Germany. Since most will doubt this, some source linked material for perusal.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

"War is a racket", Smedley Butler

 

[OriginalGatorHator]

You said straight out that he wasn’t all bad.

I said he wasn't evil incarnate

 

[OriginalGatorHator]

If we want to talk about "whitewashed history", let's talk about how IBM, Prescott Bush (W's grandfather) and the bank he worked for -Brown Brothers Harriman, all profited from 1930's Germany. Since most will doubt this, some source linked material for perusal.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar

"War is a racket", Smedley Butler

iirc Henry Ford (maybe his son) had very close relationships with the third reich as well

 

[SLC_Dawg]

This is the natural evolution for those arguing there's nothing wrong with nationalism...that Hitler and is idea, other than the Final Solution, weren't that bad.

 

[nice marmot]

I think it’s a little naive to pretend like Hitler did not love the Germans. He invaded the Rhineland and Poland, in part because of the Germans living there.

Looking backwards through time with lens of 2023 we consider the Jews living in Germany during the 30s Germans but the belief that Jews were Germans was not widely held at the time.

As to Hitler caring about the welfare of the German soldiers he certainly callously and carelessly sent them into the meat grinder of Stalingrad and made an insane attack at the battle of the bulge. But he certainly believed in that the German people were extraordinary and the heirs of Rome.

Jewish life/settlement in what is now Germany long predated even the idea of a "Germany."

 

[OriginalGatorHator]

Jewish life/settlement in what is now Germany long predated even the idea of a "Germany."

You seem to be making the argument that Hitler and other Germans in the early 20th century were incorrect as to how they viewed the jews being separate and distinct from germans. That is a seperate argument that gets into the question of "what makes some x".

The point here is that Germans, those of austrian, prussian etc descent saw themselves as being a separate people than the jews. And it was these Germans that Hitler unquestionably cared about.

 

[nice marmot]

The point here is that Germans, those of austrian, prussian etc descent saw themselves as being a separate people than the jews. And it was these Germans that Hitler unquestionably cared about.

he had one ball

if you blamed all his crimes on that, it would be a more trenchant political/historical analysis than anything you have provided thusfar.

 

[poorpreacher]

One of my biggest pet peeves with Conservatives is they completely buy the liberal view of the world and of history. Do your own research. Slavery is not original sin, was not evil, and they way America ended slavery was disgraceful. If you feel ashamed of your ancestory because of some lefty history professor who wants to exterminate you and your family you may want to stop and think if they actually know more about the confederacy than every original source and historian up until 1967.

Likewise go read about Weimar Germany. Mustache Man did some bad things but he’s not evil incarnate, is not the end result of nationalism, and is far less dangerous than Mao, Stalin, Lenin (pick a communist). What we’ve done to the German people is shameful.

Slavery was not evil?

And I thought your Isreal Replacement Theology post was bad.

 

[willdup]

One of my biggest pet peeves with Conservatives is they completely buy the liberal view of the world and of history. Do your own research. Slavery is not original sin, was not evil, and they way America ended slavery was disgraceful. If you feel ashamed of your ancestory because of some lefty history professor who wants to exterminate you and your family you may want to stop and think if they actually know more about the confederacy than every original source and historian up until 1967.

Likewise go read about Weimar Germany. Mustache Man did some bad things but he’s not evil incarnate, is not the end result of nationalism, and is far less dangerous than Mao, Stalin, Lenin (pick a communist). What we’ve done to the German people is shameful.

When I first read this I thought it might be trolling, but given your post history I was not surprised to see that it wasn’t.

If you don’t believe that Hitler was evil and that the institution of slavery was evil then you don’t believe in the concept of evil, full stop.

Unfortunately, I believe there are a growing number of people in this country who think exactly as you do. The ends justify the means and the rule of law is secondary to preferred political outcomes.

Hitler was evil. Stalin was evil. Mao was evil. They were all authoritarians who were willing to commit any crime against humanity to further their goals. When your reach that level of evil, any ranking exercise is a waste of time. Suggesting that Hitler’s economic impact on his country somehow makes him better than the other two is a level of moral relativism that is as horrifying as it is idiotic.

 

[jpzd33]

One of my biggest pet peeves with Conservatives is they completely buy the liberal view of the world and of history. Do your own research. Slavery is not original sin, was not evil, and they way America ended slavery was disgraceful. If you feel ashamed of your ancestory because of some lefty history professor who wants to exterminate you and your family you may want to stop and think if they actually know more about the confederacy than every original source and historian up until 1967.

Likewise go read about Weimar Germany. Mustache Man did some bad things but he’s not evil incarnate, is not the end result of nationalism, and is far less dangerous than Mao, Stalin, Lenin (pick a communist). What we’ve done to the German people is shameful.

adolf hitler is the worst scum POS C*nt to ever walk the face of this earth. hitler was as evil and vile as it got. Saying otherwise reserves a very special place in hell.

Claims that he "cared about German people" are complete horse shit. Slaughtering over 165k members of your population because of their religion is NOT caring about your people. Add in Austria and it jumps to over 230k innocent humans. Bullshit claim they were not viewed as true Germans. Germany had no problem sending 100k+ Jewish soldiers to the battle field in WWI. He cared about his people? 500k non Jewish German civilians died because of hitler. He had orders to shoot and kill any German citizen who would try and protect their Jewish neighbors. What a gold standard hitler was. Nothing

There are dumb libtards, and then there are dumb redneck aholes. This has nothing to do with "Liberal education" THis has everything to do with being a human being with a brain vs being an antisemitic racist dumbass redneck

 

[nice marmot]

adolf hitler is the worst scum POS C*nt to ever walk the face of this earth. hitler was as evil and vile as it got. Saying otherwise reserves a very special place in hell.

Claims that he "cared about German people" are complete horse shit. Slaughtering over 165k members of your population because of their religion is NOT caring about your people. Add in Austria and it jumps to over 230k innocent humans. Bullshit claim they were not viewed as true Germans. Germany had no problem sending 100k+ Jewish soldiers to the battle field in WWI. He cared about his people? 500k non Jewish German civilians died because of hitler. He had orders to shoot and kill any German citizen who would try and protect their Jewish neighbors. What a gold standard hitler was. Nothing

There are dumb libtards, and then there are dumb redneck aholes. This has nothing to do with "Liberal education" THis has everything to do with being a human being with a brain vs being an antisemitic racist dumbass redneck

wait til you read his views on slavery

 

[ugaboz]

must be a slow day for libs
bathrooms check
trans check
war check
billions to Iran check
white middle-aged men speaking for minorities on the vent double-check
trump living rent free triple check
all star game back in atlanta oh shat libs are mad as hell lol
ok with babies being killed check
slow day for you crazies I see