Since this religious conversation is going more civilly than expected...

[BaronVonHeinsteidel]

What about this? Many believers consider me a paradox. I just think I'm acting naturally. Starting with my knowledge of the Bible (which is rooted in theology classes I've taken) is deep enough, that when discussing the Bible with older people (and out of respect, I never reveal my beliefs one way or another) they never suspect that I'm not a believer.

In real life, I treat people almost exactly the way Jesus taught us to (without fear of what happens in the afterlife). In fact, some say I'm more Christian than actual Christians.

What do you make of me? I do nearly everything I'm 'supposed to do' (including giving of myself that I can't even afford), out of the goodness of my heart (it's not even motivated by politics).

Knowing that I do the things God asks, but will still burn and suffer for eternity, and an opportunitist who doesn't do anything but 'accept and confess' (likely out of fear of eternal consequences) will be rewarded for eternity (on what seems like a technicality to me, steeped in self preservation, not love). How does that sit with you? (All of this being based on contemporary Christian ideas of course. And from my personal experiences that suggest these ideas are widely believed by the majority of Christians).


To me, if I were a believer, I would think that a man's heart and actions shouldn't take a back seat to a something that takes so little effort, and is arguably on the level of a loophole. I have to believe that a benevolent God, doesn't delve into a lot of the pettiness that many of the flock believe he does. I wouldn't think he would want to be portrayed as a 13 year old girl, with all the smiting, rebuking, foot stomping and vengeful acts because someone doesn't worship him properly. BTW, that's not a swipe at God or believers, I'm just letting you know how the message is often perceived.

I think there is a strong argument made for the Church (who I'm not particularly a big fan of) during the Great Reformation. They believed the average person wasn't qualified to read and interpret the Bible (and those who did at the time, knew Hebrew, Greek and Latin). I think a lot of their fears are justified (btw, as an enlightenment guy, and Libertarian, I really struggle with that one).

 

[Boost Assendahm]

What about this? Many believers consider me a paradox. I just think I'm acting naturally. Starting with my knowledge of the Bible (which is rooted in theology classes I've taken) is deep enough, that when discussing the Bible with older people (and out of respect, I never reveal my beliefs one way or another) they never suspect that I'm not a believer.

In real life, I treat people almost exactly the way Jesus taught us to (without fear of what happens in the afterlife). In fact, some say I'm more Christian than actual Christians.

What do you make of me? I do nearly everything I'm 'supposed to do' (including giving of myself that I can't even afford), out of the goodness of my heart (it's not even motivated by politics).

Knowing that I do the things God asks, but will still burn and suffer for eternity, and an opportunitist who doesn't do anything but 'accept and confess' (likely out of fear of eternal consequences) will be rewarded for eternity (on what seems like a technicality to me, steeped in self preservation, not love). How does that sit with you?

To me, if I were a believer, I would think that a man's heart and actions shouldn't take a back seat to a something that takes so little effort, and is arguably on the level of a loophole. I have to believe that a benevolent God, doesn't delve into a lot of the pettiness that many of the flock believe he does. I wouldn't think he would want to be portrayed as a 13 year old girl, with all the smiting, rebuking, foot stomping and vengeful acts because someone doesn't worship him properly. BTW, that's not a swipe at God or believers, I'm just letting you know how the message is often perceived.

I think there is a strong argument made for the Church (who I'm not particularly a big fan of) during the Great Reformation. They believed the average person wasn't qualified to read and interpret the Bible (and those who did at the time, knew Hebrew, Greek and Latin). I think a lot of their fears are justified (btw, as an enlightenment guy, and Libertarian, I really struggle with that one).

I applaud your honesty and introspection. I do consider myself a Christian, but do not allow myself to be burdened by much of man's various interpretations of "the word of God." Much of what is written and repeated and misquoted and edited for content is man's spin on spirituality. That exceptionally flawed spin is replete with all of our frailties, misgivings, fears, insecurities, jealousies, hatred, dreams, greed, love, selfishness, passions, curiosity and so on and on and on. But equal to our spin on books of faith is our spin on worship of one's self. We human beings surely do seem "hell bent" (sorry couldn't resist) on worshiping something if not someone in the heavens, in nature, in the abyss or in the looking glass. Why is it in our nature to worship? We do not need a country church or a palatial cathedral to worship at all. We are pretty much so pitiful in the grand scheme (and that is what little we know of the grand scheme) of things, our wonderment of things unknown, unseen, untested and unrealized will continue to assure us that we are NOT at the top of the totem pole in any solar system or any universe. We have to know at least that much. Whatever or whomever that higher force/being/entity/God may be, we are certainly not it.

 

[FeralDawg]

I still don't think the vast majority of us can carry on a conversation about a football game without arguments erupting
much less expecting a middle age serf to understand divinity and the Holy Trinity.

 

[Fivehade]

What about this? Many believers consider me a paradox. I just think I'm acting naturally. Starting with my knowledge of the Bible (which is rooted in theology classes I've taken) is deep enough, that when discussing the Bible with older people (and out of respect, I never reveal my beliefs one way or another) they never suspect that I'm not a believer.

In real life, I treat people almost exactly the way Jesus taught us to (without fear of what happens in the afterlife). In fact, some say I'm more Christian than actual Christians.

What do you make of me? I do nearly everything I'm 'supposed to do' (including giving of myself that I can't even afford), out of the goodness of my heart (it's not even motivated by politics).

Knowing that I do the things God asks, but will still burn and suffer for eternity, and an opportunitist who doesn't do anything but 'accept and confess' (likely out of fear of eternal consequences) will be rewarded for eternity (on what seems like a technicality to me, steeped in self preservation, not love). How does that sit with you? (All of this being based on contemporary Christian ideas of course. And from my personal experiences that suggest these ideas are widely believed by the majority of Christians).


To me, if I were a believer, I would think that a man's heart and actions shouldn't take a back seat to a something that takes so little effort, and is arguably on the level of a loophole. I have to believe that a benevolent God, doesn't delve into a lot of the pettiness that many of the flock believe he does. I wouldn't think he would want to be portrayed as a 13 year old girl, with all the smiting, rebuking, foot stomping and vengeful acts because someone doesn't worship him properly. BTW, that's not a swipe at God or believers, I'm just letting you know how the message is often perceived.

I think there is a strong argument made for the Church (who I'm not particularly a big fan of) during the Great Reformation. They believed the average person wasn't qualified to read and interpret the Bible (and those who did at the time, knew Hebrew, Greek and Latin). I think a lot of their fears are justified (btw, as an enlightenment guy, and Libertarian, I really struggle with that one).

seems to me you're OK, whatever comes next....if what you're saying is true. i'm a christian too, but i dont really spend a whole lot of time thinking about what some other spanker thinks i need to be doing, or what some other guy needs to be doing.

i made similar statements as yours in past, sans non Christianity, to some primitive baptist types in Northeast GA. they told me it wasn't enough to just live a good and moral life......the bible tells you to do more, etc etc etc....i really didn't listen a whole lot more, but nodded politely and waited for them to finish their spiel in my living room , and shook their hands before they left....and didn't answer the door the next monday they came over to proseltyze ....i quit going to that baptist church after that, and an 'Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve' sermon that me and my wife walked out on. F em, no need to let small minded rednecks define your faith

 

[dieharddawg62]

I applaud your honesty and introspection. I do consider myself a Christian, but do not allow myself to be burdened by much of man's various interpretations of "the word of God." Much of what is written and repeated and misquoted and edited for content is man's spin on spirituality. That exceptionally flawed spin is replete with all of our frailties, misgivings, fears, insecurities, jealousies, hatred, dreams, greed, love, selfishness, passions, curiosity and so on and on and on. But equal to our spin on books of faith is our spin on worship of one's self. We human beings surely do seem "hell bent" (sorry couldn't resist) on worshiping something if not someone in the heavens, in nature, in the abyss or in the looking glass. Why is it in our nature to worship? We do not need a country church or a palatial cathedral to worship at all. We are pretty much so pitiful in the grand scheme (and that is what little we know of the grand scheme) of things, our wonderment of things unknown, unseen, untested and unrealized will continue to assure us that we are NOT at the top of the totem pole in any solar system or any universe. We have to know at least that much. Whatever or whomever that higher force/being/entity/God may be, we are certainly not it.

I'm with you on that. Very well written...you have gift.

 

[BaronVonHeinsteidel]

I applaud your honesty and introspection. I do consider myself a Christian, but do not allow myself to be burdened by much of man's various interpretations of "the word of God." Much of what is written and repeated and misquoted and edited for content is man's spin on spirituality. That exceptionally flawed spin is replete with all of our frailties, misgivings, fears, insecurities, jealousies, hatred, dreams, greed, love, selfishness, passions, curiosity and so on and on and on. But equal to our spin on books of faith is our spin on worship of one's self. We human beings surely do seem "hell bent" (sorry couldn't resist) on worshiping something if not someone in the heavens, in nature, in the abyss or in the looking glass. Why is it in our nature to worship? We do not need a country church or a palatial cathedral to worship at all. We are pretty much so pitiful in the grand scheme (and that is what little we know of the grand scheme) of things, our wonderment of things unknown, unseen, untested and unrealized will continue to assure us that we are NOT at the top of the totem pole in any solar system or any universe. We have to know at least that much. Whatever or whomever that higher force/being/entity/God may be, we are certainly not it.

I think I've said this before, but I think a lot of people should look to people like you, to see what a witness for Christ should talk and act like.

 

[NavyDawg22]

I like how you presented it Boost. I like to think it is something deeply rooted in our psyche to believe in something greater than ourselves. It exists in cultures throughout the world. Why?

 

[HeulenHund2]

What about this? Many believers consider me a paradox. I just think I'm acting naturally. Starting with my knowledge of the Bible (which is rooted in theology classes I've taken) is deep enough, that when discussing the Bible with older people (and out of respect, I never reveal my beliefs one way or another) they never suspect that I'm not a believer.

In real life, I treat people almost exactly the way Jesus taught us to (without fear of what happens in the afterlife). In fact, some say I'm more Christian than actual Christians.

What do you make of me? I do nearly everything I'm 'supposed to do' (including giving of myself that I can't even afford), out of the goodness of my heart (it's not even motivated by politics).

Knowing that I do the things God asks, but will still burn and suffer for eternity, and an opportunitist who doesn't do anything but 'accept and confess' (likely out of fear of eternal consequences) will be rewarded for eternity (on what seems like a technicality to me, steeped in self preservation, not love). How does that sit with you? (All of this being based on contemporary Christian ideas of course. And from my personal experiences that suggest these ideas are widely believed by the majority of Christians).


To me, if I were a believer, I would think that a man's heart and actions shouldn't take a back seat to a something that takes so little effort, and is arguably on the level of a loophole. I have to believe that a benevolent God, doesn't delve into a lot of the pettiness that many of the flock believe he does. I wouldn't think he would want to be portrayed as a 13 year old girl, with all the smiting, rebuking, foot stomping and vengeful acts because someone doesn't worship him properly. BTW, that's not a swipe at God or believers, I'm just letting you know how the message is often perceived.

I think there is a strong argument made for the Church (who I'm not particularly a big fan of) during the Great Reformation. They believed the average person wasn't qualified to read and interpret the Bible (and those who did at the time, knew Hebrew, Greek and Latin). I think a lot of their fears are justified (btw, as an enlightenment guy, and Libertarian, I really struggle with that one).

I agree with you that it's what's in your heart and your actions that matter, not some academic test of faith.
I'm agnostic, but my gut and desire tell me there is something beyond this life, what the particulars are I don't know. I don't act to be in good with God. At my best I act and think as my conscious guides me. I think empathy is too often overlooked when We form our opinions. If We try to put ourselves in others' shoes, it opens up the mind and heart.

 

[BaronVonHeinsteidel]

I still don't think the vast majority of us can carry on a conversation about a football game without arguments erupting
much less expecting a middle age serf to understand divinity and the Holy Trinity.

True, but I think we do a disservice to ourselves, when we pass on an opportunity to discuss these things civily.

 

[HeulenHund2]

What about this? Many believers consider me a paradox. I just think I'm acting naturally. Starting with my knowledge of the Bible (which is rooted in theology classes I've taken) is deep enough, that when discussing the Bible with older people (and out of respect, I never reveal my beliefs one way or another) they never suspect that I'm not a believer.

In real life, I treat people almost exactly the way Jesus taught us to (without fear of what happens in the afterlife). In fact, some say I'm more Christian than actual Christians.

What do you make of me? I do nearly everything I'm 'supposed to do' (including giving of myself that I can't even afford), out of the goodness of my heart (it's not even motivated by politics).

Knowing that I do the things God asks, but will still burn and suffer for eternity, and an opportunitist who doesn't do anything but 'accept and confess' (likely out of fear of eternal consequences) will be rewarded for eternity (on what seems like a technicality to me, steeped in self preservation, not love). How does that sit with you? (All of this being based on contemporary Christian ideas of course. And from my personal experiences that suggest these ideas are widely believed by the majority of Christians).


To me, if I were a believer, I would think that a man's heart and actions shouldn't take a back seat to a something that takes so little effort, and is arguably on the level of a loophole. I have to believe that a benevolent God, doesn't delve into a lot of the pettiness that many of the flock believe he does. I wouldn't think he would want to be portrayed as a 13 year old girl, with all the smiting, rebuking, foot stomping and vengeful acts because someone doesn't worship him properly. BTW, that's not a swipe at God or believers, I'm just letting you know how the message is often perceived.

I think there is a strong argument made for the Church (who I'm not particularly a big fan of) during the Great Reformation. They believed the average person wasn't qualified to read and interpret the Bible (and those who did at the time, knew Hebrew, Greek and Latin). I think a lot of their fears are justified (btw, as an enlightenment guy, and Libertarian, I really struggle with that one).

Conscience, empathy and intellect are my guides, at least at my best they are. I never act to abide ''the will of God'', I'm an agnostic.
My gut and hope lead me to think there is SOMETHING worthwhile past this physical existence, what it might be is the great open question.
I do know many people need to feel some external guidance. I also know rigid belief combined with intolerance has resulted in many of the worst crimes in our history.
I lived outside of Asheville NC between 2001 and 2009. I met quite a few ''new age'' types who believed in anything from crystal power to wiccan. Many of them were great people, some were not. I believe in respecting what people believe, as long as they are benevolent and respectful to others, I'm good.

 

[NavyDawg22]

True, but I think we do a disservice to ourselves, when we pass on an opportunity to discuss these things civily.

This is what we have really lost in modern times. Disagreeing without objectifying or degrading others. Blatant put downs and blog shouting have destroyed civilized conversation.

 

[BaronVonHeinsteidel]

I like how you presented it Boost. I like to think it is something deeply rooted in our psyche to believe in something greater than ourselves. It exists in cultures throughout the world. Why?

That's a deeply complex question. And in my opinion, it's a question that's deeply tied to our understanding of things and our surroundings. The more primitive (and that's strictly a theological based term) the religion, the the more it entails a lack of understanding or understanding in the world. From a primitive trait (like worshipping an inanimate object for luck, food or rain) to dualities (which definitely illustrates a real human struggle) in Zoroastrianism (which along with The Egyptian religion, are the foundations of the Abrahamic religions). It's also tied to our propensity to want to be governed or be curious (needing to know the answer to all of life's great questions). I think worship or praise of something is tied to seeing something so big, so intimidating, that you look to it so that it provides for you, blesses you or doesn't kill you. With greater knowledge, the need itself to worship, certainly evolves.

 

[PotimusWillie]

What about this? Many believers consider me a paradox. I just think I'm acting naturally. Starting with my knowledge of the Bible (which is rooted in theology classes I've taken) is deep enough, that when discussing the Bible with older people (and out of respect, I never reveal my beliefs one way or another) they never suspect that I'm not a believer.

In real life, I treat people almost exactly the way Jesus taught us to (without fear of what happens in the afterlife). In fact, some say I'm more Christian than actual Christians.

What do you make of me? I do nearly everything I'm 'supposed to do' (including giving of myself that I can't even afford), out of the goodness of my heart (it's not even motivated by politics).

Knowing that I do the things God asks, but will still burn and suffer for eternity, and an opportunitist who doesn't do anything but 'accept and confess' (likely out of fear of eternal consequences) will be rewarded for eternity (on what seems like a technicality to me, steeped in self preservation, not love). How does that sit with you? (All of this being based on contemporary Christian ideas of course. And from my personal experiences that suggest these ideas are widely believed by the majority of Christians).


To me, if I were a believer, I would think that a man's heart and actions shouldn't take a back seat to a something that takes so little effort, and is arguably on the level of a loophole. I have to believe that a benevolent God, doesn't delve into a lot of the pettiness that many of the flock believe he does. I wouldn't think he would want to be portrayed as a 13 year old girl, with all the smiting, rebuking, foot stomping and vengeful acts because someone doesn't worship him properly. BTW, that's not a swipe at God or believers, I'm just letting you know how the message is often perceived.

I think there is a strong argument made for the Church (who I'm not particularly a big fan of) during the Great Reformation. They believed the average person wasn't qualified to read and interpret the Bible (and those who did at the time, knew Hebrew, Greek and Latin). I think a lot of their fears are justified (btw, as an enlightenment guy, and Libertarian, I really struggle with that one).

I think that is a very honest and real feeling that many have.

The gun I would bring to this fight is what Christianity is.

Christianity is not like every other religion of the world. It is not based on works, but on acceptance of Christ. To say that is a loophole is rather naive, and is actually insulting to God as God gave his Son to be brutally beaten and killed for us. All he asked of us was to believe, ask him for forgiveness of our sins and repent. That single point and single act is what separates Christianity from other religions and is why most who fight Christianity grossly misinterpret it based on how other religions work or how they see Church.

What we see as Church isn't what the Church was in its inception. Man corrupts. The soul is willing, but the soul is weak. Christ's Church is the body of believers, not a brick sanctuary in Snellville.

I appreciate your point and respect it. But God created us to worship him. The problem with all the "stuff" we get involved in is sin. Sin and God cannot exist in the same place. So many "good" people have gone to hell because they separated themselves from God and held sin. Good works are not what God asked of us. It is something that can be a manifestation of faith, but he only asks us for belief, request for forgiveness through his Son and worship.

Christ himself said that the only way to the Father is through him. It doesn't say that if I work at the soup kitchen, I can live with God forever. I can't make that fit my lifestyle or personal preference. I can put God through my human filter, but it doesn't change what his Word says.

I think one of the biggest gambles in life is to tell God what he meant and how he should approach my soul.

Just saying. You always bring sound discussion on here. You have always sounded like a logical thinker and you treat people here fairly.

But I do disagree with you on the issue of good works, being a good person, and leaving out Christ. Christ is the central part of salvation. The only point is that he died for us and he was resurrected. In that, he took the sins of the world away. All we have to do is ask. It isn't a loophole, it is the whole story.

That is how I see it. Have a good day Baron.

 

[NavyDawg22]

That's a deeply complex question. And in my opinion, it's a question that's deeply tied to our understanding of things and our surroundings. The more primitive (and that's strictly a theological based term) the religion, the the more it entails a lack of understanding or understanding in the world. From a primitive trait (like worshipping an inanimate object for luck, food or rain) to dualities (which definitely illustrates a real human struggle) in Zoroastrianism (which along with The Egyptian religion, are the foundations of the Abrahamic religions). It's also tied to our propensity to want to be governed or be curious (needing to know the answer to all of life's great questions). I think worship or praise of something is tied to seeing something so big, so intimidating, that you look to it so that it provides for you, blesses you or doesn't kill you. With greater knowledge, the need itself to worship, certainly evolves.

Alright I know this is a blog but I'm going to temporarily entertain what is called the Ancient Alien Theory of the origination of humankind on Earth as an alternative to evolutionary theory. Since we are entertaining ideas and not committing to anything here how might this fit in with ancient cultures and texts, curious examples of the Nephilim, ruins on several continents, etc. I am not claiming this as my own but it does beg some questions and provides in some respects (not all but some) better explanations for why mankind is so much more evolved and intelligent then other animals.

 

[BaronVonHeinsteidel]

I like how you presented it Boost. I like to think it is something deeply rooted in our psyche to believe in something greater than ourselves. It exists in cultures throughout the world. Why?

In fact, I'll rephrase this in a far more simpler way. I think when we see something bigger than us (the sun, the Earth, nature or even a creature) that we don't understand, but has the ability to provide for us or kill us, the intimidation and awe inspires us to worship it. Even man made things like governments (e.g. the dynamic in North Korea).

 

[NavyDawg22]

In fact, I'll rephrase this in a far more simpler way. I think when we see something bigger than us (the sun, the Earth, nature or even a creature) that we don't understand, but has the ability to provide for us or kill us, the intimidation and awe inspires us to worship it, even man made things like governments (e.g. the dynamic in North Korea).

I think this is very reasonable.

 

[HeulenHund2]

That's a deeply complex question. And in my opinion, it's a question that's deeply tied to our understanding of things and our surroundings. The more primitive (and that's strictly a theological based term) the religion, the the more it entails a lack of understanding or understanding in the world. From a primitive trait (like worshipping an inanimate object for luck, food or rain) to dualities (which definitely illustrates a real human struggle) in Zoroastrianism (which along with The Egyptian religion, are the foundations of the Abrahamic religions). It's also tied to our propensity to want to be governed or be curious (needing to know the answer to all of life's great questions). I think worship or praise of something is tied to seeing something so big, so intimidating, that you look to it so that it provides for you, blesses you or doesn't kill you. With greater knowledge, the need itself to worship, certainly evolves.

I think the complexity is in us. There is a certain drive toward understanding that has been very impatient over the millennia.
The powerlessness our ancestors must have felt when the rain didn't come but sickness did would have led them to overwhelming need and desire to understand why these things occurred, and ultimately, what to do about them.
I recommend the book On Human Nature by Edward O Wilson to those open to the idea that much of what we've come to believe MAY have roots in the human experiences of those who came before us.

 

[BaronVonHeinsteidel]

I think that is a very honest and real feeling that many have.

The gun I would bring to this fight is what Christianity is.

Christianity is not like every other religion of the world. It is not based on works, but on acceptance of Christ. To say that is a loophole is rather naive, and is actually insulting to God as God gave his Son to be brutally beaten and killed for us. All he asked of us was to believe, ask him for forgiveness of our sins and repent. That single point and single act is what separates Christianity from other religions and is why most who fight Christianity grossly misinterpret it based on how other religions work or how they see Church.

What we see as Church isn't what the Church was in its inception. Man corrupts. The soul is willing, but the soul is weak. Christ's Church is the body of believers, not a brick sanctuary in Snellville.

I appreciate your point and respect it. But God created us to worship him. The problem with all the "stuff" we get involved in is sin. Sin and God cannot exist in the same place. So many "good" people have gone to hell because they separated themselves from God and held sin. Good works are not what God asked of us. It is something that can be a manifestation of faith, but he only asks us for belief, request for forgiveness through his Son and worship.

Christ himself said that the only way to the Father is through him. It doesn't say that if I work at the soup kitchen, I can live with God forever. I can't make that fit my lifestyle or personal preference. I can put God through my human filter, but it doesn't change what his Word says.

I think one of the biggest gambles in life is to tell God what he meant and how he should approach my soul.

Just saying. You always bring sound discussion on here. You have always sounded like a logical thinker and you treat people here fairly.

But I do disagree with you on the issue of good works, being a good person, and leaving out Christ. Christ is the central part of salvation. The only point is that he died for us and he was resurrected. In that, he took the sins of the world away. All we have to do is ask. It isn't a loophole, it is the whole story.

That is how I see it. Have a good day Baron.

I didn't imply it's loophole. I'm saying when you just look at it from the outside, when paired with personal good works, love and sacrifice, it could be equated to a loophole by appearance, especially when the accept/confess act involves no hard work or even good behavior. I choose my words very carefully regarding this subject. And I have to believe that actually being 'Christ like' should be weighed heavier than it apparently is.

Personally, I just can't become compelled to believe. It's not something I can will myself to do. I can't control that, trust me. And if I'm condemned to Hell to burn for eternity for that, that's unfortunate. But that will never deter me from giving and loving people unconditionally (the way God would want it). Believe it or not, I love you and everyone here, regardless of whether or not I have spiritual skin in the game. I hope, if God exists, he will have mercy on me for somethng that I can't change and don't think is moral or fair. And if God is benevolent, I have to believe he's more fair than modern Christian dogma suggests. You have a good day too Willie.

 

[dieharddawg62]

This is hurting my brain.

 

[PotimusWillie]

I didn't imply it's loophole. I'm saying when you just look at it from the outside, when paired with personal good works, love and sacrifice, it could be equated to a loophole by appearance, especially when the accept/confess act involves no hard work or even good behavior. I choose my words very carefully regarding this subject. And I have to believe that actually being 'Christ like' should be weighed heavier than it apparently is.

Personally, I just can't become compelled to believe. It's not something I can will myself to do. I can't control that, trust me. And if I'm condemned to Hell to burn for eternity for that, that's unfortunate. But that will never deter me from giving and loving people unconditionally (the way God would want it). Believe it or not, I love you and everyone here, regardless of whether or not I have spiritual skin in the game. I hope, if God exists, he will have mercy on me for somethng that I can't change and don't think is moral or fair. And if God is, benevolent, I have to believe he's more fair than modern Christian dogma suggests. You have a good day too Willie.

Go Dawgs Baron!

 

[HeulenHund2]

This is hurting my brain.

Ice cream hurts my brain, but at least it taste good.

 

[dieharddawg62]

Ice cream hurts my brain, but at least it taste good.

Blue Bell is the best. I'm willing to risk listeria or whatever you call it.

 

[Dawg 'n IT]

What about this? Many believers consider me a paradox. I just think I'm acting naturally. Starting with my knowledge of the Bible (which is rooted in theology classes I've taken) is deep enough, that when discussing the Bible with older people (and out of respect, I never reveal my beliefs one way or another) they never suspect that I'm not a believer.

In real life, I treat people almost exactly the way Jesus taught us to (without fear of what happens in the afterlife). In fact, some say I'm more Christian than actual Christians.

What do you make of me? I do nearly everything I'm 'supposed to do' (including giving of myself that I can't even afford), out of the goodness of my heart (it's not even motivated by politics).

Knowing that I do the things God asks, but will still burn and suffer for eternity, and an opportunitist who doesn't do anything but 'accept and confess' (likely out of fear of eternal consequences) will be rewarded for eternity (on what seems like a technicality to me, steeped in self preservation, not love). How does that sit with you? (All of this being based on contemporary Christian ideas of course. And from my personal experiences that suggest these ideas are widely believed by the majority of Christians).


To me, if I were a believer, I would think that a man's heart and actions shouldn't take a back seat to a something that takes so little effort, and is arguably on the level of a loophole. I have to believe that a benevolent God, doesn't delve into a lot of the pettiness that many of the flock believe he does. I wouldn't think he would want to be portrayed as a 13 year old girl, with all the smiting, rebuking, foot stomping and vengeful acts because someone doesn't worship him properly. BTW, that's not a swipe at God or believers, I'm just letting you know how the message is often perceived.

I think there is a strong argument made for the Church (who I'm not particularly a big fan of) during the Great Reformation. They believed the average person wasn't qualified to read and interpret the Bible (and those who did at the time, knew Hebrew, Greek and Latin). I think a lot of their fears are justified (btw, as an enlightenment guy, and Libertarian, I really struggle with that one).

Going with the assumption that there is a God, don't take anything man says at face value to heart. Man reads the Word, interprets the Word, then naturally tries to manipulate the Word including controlling understanding of the Word such that we arrive at the litigious "confess and be saved" mentality on Judgement Day.

The one item from the Bible that trumps our understanding of passage into Heaven is that God will judge. I personally believe that means God would judge a person's heart and not their rhetoric. After all, if the plan is to sin for life then repent and enjoy eternal salvation, surely an omnipotent God would be wise to that being the ultimate lies straight to the Creator's face. We won't have a lawyer present to argue against an unfavorable judgement. Simply saying the words "I believe" does not make one a believer, even if said person sees proof. We deny truth all the time even when it's right in front of us. Salvation is simply up to God to decide.

My personal belief is that a person such as yourself would have a great chance of being saved (if what you say is true) because it sounds like you live a Christian life even though you are not a Christian. You see, Christianity is not a membership to flash and wave at the world. It is about the way you live your life. So unlike the chronic sinner who plans to confess before God, if you met God your immediate belief in God's reality would likely be validated based on the way you lived. It would be genuine and not some con. But that's MY belief.

My belief is rooted in the fact that during my college years my circle of friends included Jews, Catholics, Baptists, Muslims, and atheists. Everyone got along just fine and we even had some deep discussions while sinning over the bottle (the Muslims did stay away from booze). The one thought we collectively circled around to is that no matter who is "right", we went with the assumption that if there is a God, it's a solo one and with that, why would God create souls damned to Hell based on the fact that they never accepted the "right" religion either out of choice for another path (not including being an evil person) or out of the lack of opportunity never being directly exposed to the correct religion. We all agreed that no real God who loves people would predestine someone for Hell considering our lives are supposed to involve "earning" our way into Heaven.

Anyway, go Dawgs. Time to beat some Cocks!

 

[FSUATT]

Going with the assumption that there is a God, don't take anything man says at face value to heart. Man reads the Word, interprets the Word, then naturally tries to manipulate the Word including controlling understanding of the Word such that we arrive at the litigious "confess and be saved" mentality on Judgement Day.

The one item from the Bible that trumps our understanding of passage into Heaven is that God will judge. I personally believe that means God would judge a person's heart and not their rhetoric. After all, if the plan is to sin for life then repent and enjoy eternal salvation, surely an omnipotent God would be wise to that being the ultimate lies straight to the Creator's face. We won't have a lawyer present to argue against an unfavorable judgement. Simply saying the words "I believe" does not make one a believer, even if said person sees proof. We deny truth all the time even when it's right in front of us. Salvation is simply up to God to decide.

My personal belief is that a person such as yourself would have a great chance of being saved (if what you say is true) because it sounds like you live a Christian life even though you are not a Christian. You see, Christianity is not a membership to flash and wave at the world. It is about the way you live your life. So unlike the chronic sinner who plans to confess before God, if you met God your immediate belief in God's reality would likely be validated based on the way you lived. It would be genuine and not some con. But that's MY belief.

My belief is rooted in the fact that during my college years my circle of friends included Jews, Catholics, Baptists, Muslims, and atheists. Everyone got along just fine and we even had some deep discussions while sinning over the bottle (the Muslims did stay away from booze). The one thought we collectively circled around to is that no matter who is "right", we went with the assumption that if there is a God, it's a solo one and with that, why would God create souls damned to Hell based on the fact that they never accepted the "right" religion either out of choice for another path (not including being an evil person) or out of the lack of opportunity never being directly exposed to the correct religion. We all agreed that no real God who loves people would predestine someone for Hell considering our lives are supposed to involve "earning" our way into Heaven.

Anyway, go Dawgs. Time to beat some Cocks!

You very well summed up how I feel. Thank you.

 

[NavyDawg22]

Going with the assumption that there is a God, don't take anything man says at face value to heart. Man reads the Word, interprets the Word, then naturally tries to manipulate the Word including controlling understanding of the Word such that we arrive at the litigious "confess and be saved" mentality on Judgement Day.

The one item from the Bible that trumps our understanding of passage into Heaven is that God will judge. I personally believe that means God would judge a person's heart and not their rhetoric. After all, if the plan is to sin for life then repent and enjoy eternal salvation, surely an omnipotent God would be wise to that being the ultimate lies straight to the Creator's face. We won't have a lawyer present to argue against an unfavorable judgement. Simply saying the words "I believe" does not make one a believer, even if said person sees proof. We deny truth all the time even when it's right in front of us. Salvation is simply up to God to decide.

My personal belief is that a person such as yourself would have a great chance of being saved (if what you say is true) because it sounds like you live a Christian life even though you are not a Christian. You see, Christianity is not a membership to flash and wave at the world. It is about the way you live your life. So unlike the chronic sinner who plans to confess before God, if you met God your immediate belief in God's reality would likely be validated based on the way you lived. It would be genuine and not some con. But that's MY belief.

My belief is rooted in the fact that during my college years my circle of friends included Jews, Catholics, Baptists, Muslims, and atheists. Everyone got along just fine and we even had some deep discussions while sinning over the bottle (the Muslims did stay away from booze). The one thought we collectively circled around to is that no matter who is "right", we went with the assumption that if there is a God, it's a solo one and with that, why would God create souls damned to Hell based on the fact that they never accepted the "right" religion either out of choice for another path (not including being an evil person) or out of the lack of opportunity never being directly exposed to the correct religion. We all agreed that no real God who loves people would predestine someone for Hell considering our lives are supposed to involve "earning" our way into Heaven.

Anyway, go Dawgs. Time to beat some Cocks!

If you believe in God then the above sounds reasonable. Who knows the mind of God? Only thing I'm not sure of is that if you believe in Jesus and that is your narrative then a loving God and just God who ignores your rejection of such a sacrifice says what about God? Does it mean that God didn't give us a pass when he sent his Son to make a sacrifice for those that believe in Him? Does it mean that he would really really like you to believe in Him but if you don't then you still get another pass because you have a good heart? So for those that believe in Jesus it is a tough one to reconcile. I personally leave all the judging up to God as long as what you believe in doesn't effect me or my family or my country (see radical Islam or radical anything for that matter). So who knows the mind of God? If you believe in the part of the Bible that says God is just then does just mean you ignore those that reject him? even those with a good heart? Good stuff...

 

[BaronVonHeinsteidel]

A

If you believe in God then the above sounds reasonable. Who knows the mind of God? Only thing I'm not sure of is that if you believe in Jesus and that is your narrative then a loving God and just God who ignores your rejection of such a sacrifice says what about God? Does it mean that God didn't give us a pass when he sent his Son to make a sacrifice for those that believe in Him? Does it mean that he would really really like you to believe in Him but if you don't then you still get another pass because you have a good heart? So for those that believe in Jesus it is a tough one to reconcile. I personally leave all the judging up to God as long as what you believe in doesn't effect me or my family or my country (see radical Islam or radical anything for that matter). So who knows the mind of God? If you believe in the part of the Bible that says God is just then does just mean you ignore those that reject him? even those with a good heart? Good stuff...

BTW, much of this stems back to what I said about the average person running with interpretations of the Bible that he doesn't understand. There was a reason the Bible was restricted from people who weren't trained to interpret it... not to mention the fact that they had to understand Biblical Greek, Latin and Hebrew. We've seen the dangers of people running with loose interpretations of the Bible every day. Just to stress the matter, my Theology professor had to take an entire semester just on how to interpret Genesis alone. I can give you two classic examples of how the average person's understanding of the Bible, has corrupted our thinking. 1. The word prophet itself, in its original context, meant poet, not soothsayer. Imagine if we mistook the works of Chaucer or Poe as prophecy (in the modern context). 2. Revelation itself was nothing more than lettere to persecuted Christians. But you see how that narrative has been perverted.

 

[HeulenHund2]

If you believe in God then the above sounds reasonable. Who knows the mind of God? Only thing I'm not sure of is that if you believe in Jesus and that is your narrative then a loving God and just God who ignores your rejection of such a sacrifice says what about God? Does it mean that God didn't give us a pass when he sent his Son to make a sacrifice for those that believe in Him? Does it mean that he would really really like you to believe in Him but if you don't then you still get another pass because you have a good heart? So for those that believe in Jesus it is a tough one to reconcile. I personally leave all the judging up to God as long as what you believe in doesn't effect me or my family or my country (see radical Islam or radical anything for that matter). So who knows the mind of God? If you believe in the part of the Bible that says God is just then does just mean you ignore those that reject him? even those with a good heart? Good stuff...

It makes no sense to me that ''GOD'' would demand we believe in him. Regardless of how many get out of hell free cards you say he's extended, it still reeks of petty human emotion, or an egotistical ruler.

I can imagine Donald Trump playing the part of GOD. ''I'm huge, I do good things, now you should do your part and worship me. I can put you in hell.. like that ( snaps his finger)''.

 

[NavyDawg22]

A

BTW, much of this stems back to what I said about the average person running with interpretations of the Bible that he doesn't understand. There was a reason the Bible was restricted from people who weren't trained to interpret it... not to mention the fact that they had to understand Biblical Greek, Latin and Hebrew. We've seen the dangers of people running with loose interpretations of the Bible every day. Just to stress the matter, my Theology professor had to take an entire semester just on how to interpret Genesis alone. I can give you two classic examples of how the average person's understanding of the Bible, has corrupted our thinking. 1. The word prophet itself, in its original context, meant poet, not soothsayer. Imagine if we mistook the works of Chaucer or Poe as prophecy (in the modern context). 2. Revelation itself was nothing more than lettere to persecuted Christians. But you see how that narrative has been perverted.

I spent 2 years studying Genesis and another 2 years studying Revelation among other things. Regardless, I have spent a lifetime studying this stuff but I am always learning. I don't claim to be an expert just a seeker of knowledge. I like to discuss things but not with people who have agendas to change my mind or who are rude or mean. I like to pose the questions and let them discover their own truth.

 

[BaronVonHeinsteidel]

I spent 2 years studying Genesis and another 2 years studying Revelation among other things. Regardless, I have spent a lifetime studying this stuff but I am always learning. I don't claim to be an expert just a seeker of knowledge. I like to discuss things but not with people who have agendas to change my mind or who are rude or mean. I like to pose the questions and let them discover their own truth.

Do you think I'm doing that? I don't think you're suggesting such a thing, but I just want to be sure.

 

[NavyDawg22]

Do you think I'm doing that? I don't think you're suggesting such a thing, but I just want to be sure.

No not you. I despise that since it seems so few people can reasonably disagree or discuss anything of consequence. It is a sad world we live in where the most important things in life cannot be discussed civilly. Never thought that about you.

 

[HeulenHund2]

I spent 2 years studying Genesis and another 2 years studying Revelation among other things. Regardless, I have spent a lifetime studying this stuff but I am always learning. I don't claim to be an expert just a seeker of knowledge. I like to discuss things but not with people who have agendas to change my mind or who are rude or mean. I like to pose the questions and let them discover their own truth.

''Rude or mean'', you must have a very short memory when it comes to your own words. Did you baptize your earlier words away in the past 20 hours or so ?

 

[NavyDawg22]

''Rude or mean'', you must have a very short memory when it comes to your own words. Did you baptize your earlier words away in the past 20 hours or so ?

I don't have to be nice to you. You are a moron and an anti-Christian Hater. You hate the American soldier and all your blogs are either anti-Christian or pro-Islamic Radicalism or pro-liberalism or pro-socialism. Not only that but you have been very ugly in the past in your blogs to me. So when you throw down the gauntlet like you did I will come after you every chance I have. I roll that way...deal with it.

 

[HeulenHund2]

I don't have to be nice to you. You are a moron and an anti-Christian Hater. You hate the American soldier and all your blogs are either anti-Christian or pro-Islamic Radicalism or pro-liberalism or pro-socialism. Not only that but you have been very ugly in the past in your blogs to me. So when you throw down the gauntlet like you did I will come after you every chance I have. I roll that way...deal with it.

Oh no, not the gauntlet, did God give you permission to play with his gauntlet ?

 

[NavyDawg22]

Oh no, not the gauntlet, did God give you permission to play with his gauntlet ?

You are awful. At least try to start respecting the threads and other posters and just go away. We were having nice conversations before you started trolling. You really are bad.

 

[HeulenHund2]

I don't have to be nice to you. You are a moron and an anti-Christian Hater. You hate the American soldier and all your blogs are either anti-Christian or pro-Islamic Radicalism or pro-liberalism or pro-socialism. Not only that but you have been very ugly in the past in your blogs to me. So when you throw down the gauntlet like you did I will come after you every chance I have. I roll that way...deal with it.

Oh no, not the gauntlet, did God give you permission to play with his gauntlet ?

You are awful. At least try to start respecting the threads and other posters and just go away. We were having nice conversations before you started trolling. You really are bad.

I respect everybody worthy of my respect. That means everybody but you.

 

[NavyDawg22]

Oh no, not the gauntlet, did God give you permission to play with his gauntlet ?


I respect everybody worthy of my respect. That means everybody but you.

Now that's the Helen I'm used to...good job Pig Lover.

 

[dieharddawg62]

Children

 

[gawga_dawg]

More useless political talk, even on game day. Why don't the mods create a politics section so all of this crap can get put in there and this section can be used to talk about what it was meant for, which is UGA and football.

 

[HeulenHund2]

More useless political talk, even on game day. Why don't the mods create a politics section so all of this crap can get put in there and this section can be used to talk about what it was meant for, which is UGA and football.

You could have used the time it took to post for football, instead you go on about politics.