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So the “innocent” “Maryland Dad” is an MS-13 member.

Still no proof that Garcia is a gang member.

Bull crap. "No proof"?

The immigration judge found the government's gang-affilication evidence persuasive enough to deny Garcia bond, labeling him a "danger to the community". The Board of Immigration Appeals upheld the immigration judge’s determination that he was a danger to the community, affirming the gang membership allegation based on the informant’s claim and other unspecified evidence. Lack of public evidentiary support does not mean it doesn't exist. The court did find him a likely gang member in 2019, and he did appeal that finding to the BIA, which affirmed it.

There is nuance in immigration rulings. Gang allegations and persecution risks are weighed separately. You can't logically dismiss the "gang affiliation", yet hang your hat on "El Salvador was a danger to him". That's some epic cognitive dissonance at work there.

P.S. We know all of this because he DID have due process.
 
Bull crap. "No proof"?

The immigration judge found the government's gang-affilication evidence persuasive enough to deny Garcia bond, labeling him a "danger to the community". The Board of Immigration Appeals upheld the immigration judge’s determination that he was a danger to the community, affirming the gang membership allegation based on the informant’s claim and other unspecified evidence. Lack of public evidentiary support does not mean it doesn't exist. The court did find him a likely gang member in 2019, and he did appeal that finding to the BIA, which affirmed it.

There is nuance in immigration rulings. Gang allegations and persecution risks are weighed separately. You can't logically dismiss the "gang affiliation", yet hang your hat on "El Salvador was a danger to him". That's some epic cognitive dissonance at work there.

P.S. We know all of this because he DID have due process.
Are you intentionally ending your recounting of his 2019 court case before it was completed or do you really not know what happened after the hearing you cite? Either way it’s a really bad look.

Yes, based solely off of ICE testimony, a judge initially determined that Garcia could be a threat to the community and ordered that he remain detained. That’s correct.

But what happened after that? Garcia and his lawyer made his case before a judge, who found him credible enough to grant the protective order against deportation and then release him back into the community. ICE did not object to his release.

Once Garcia was afforded due process (yes, I keep coming back to that), the court rendered a different finding. What you are suggesting is the equivalent of insisting that anyone who is indicted by a grand jury is guilty of the charged crime, which is of course nonsense.
 
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This issue is actually as simple as the SCOTUS 9-0 decision suggests. Due process is a constitutionally protected right, period.

What is detailed in this 60 Minutes segment is foundationally unamerican and the SCOTUS agrees. If either of you are OK with this, I respectfully suggest you should think long and hard about what you actually mean when you say you are a proud American. This is the kind of activity we fought in WW2 to defeat.



EDIT: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/photoj...n-migrants-arrival-in-el-salvador-60-minutes/
This is a hellacious deterrent to keep these thugs out of our country though. Most Dems want them to stay in our country so that they can maintain their power over the people. They don’t care who or what they are as long as they can vote.
 
Why does he fear for his life from gang retaliation if he’s not associated with a gang ?
I asked will this exact question. He said it could be a multitude of things. Which I guess is true, it could be. But the most logical conclusion is he has had some affiliation with them. One thing is for certain. He isn’t on the gang’s radar for being a good citizen over there or here. It is just a talking point where he can claim Trump is running all over the constitution. So he can say see. I told you so. He wouldn’t let this guy within ten miles of his own family. Trump halted the deportations and waited for the court to end up in his favor. Seems like this should be quite the deterrent going forward.
 
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I asked will this exact question. He said it could be a multitude of things. Which I guess is true, it could be. But the most logical conclusion is he has had some affiliation with them. One thing is for certain. He isn’t on the gang’s radar for being a good citizen over there or here. It is just a talking point where he can claim Trump is running all over the constitution. So he can say see. I told you so. He wouldn’t let this guy within ten miles of his own family. Trump halted the deportations and waited for the court to end up in his favor. Seems like this should be quite the deterrent going forward.
I think he was a member of a competing gang from what I heard on the news.
 
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I think he was a member of a competing gang from what I heard on the news.
For me hearing that he could have been involved in human trafficking is where my sympathy stopped for him. He had an order not to be deported. That part was certainly a mistake. An admitted mistake, but the more you hear about this guy it sounds like karma. If you are a shit bird, you have shit bird things happen to you.
 
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I asked will this exact question. He said it could be a multitude of things. Which I guess is true, it could be. But the most logical conclusion is he has had some affiliation with them. One thing is for certain. He isn’t on the gang’s radar for being a good citizen over there or here. It is just a talking point where he can claim Trump is running all over the constitution. So he can say see. I told you so. He wouldn’t let this guy within ten miles of his own family. Trump halted the deportations and waited for the court to end up in his favor. Seems like this should be quite the deterrent going forward.
Are you guys really that clueless about how gangs work? Do you think gangs only shakedown and steal from other gangs? And no, your one thing that is certain is anything but.

There are at least as many reasons why someone could face threats from a gang by not being a member than by being a member. Intimidating, threatening and extorting money from the general public is kind of core for most gangs.

Your obvious lack of knowledge of how gangs work is a great illustration for why due process is a guaranteed right. It’s why we appoint judges trained in the law and not random ICE officials to analyze cases, hear arguments and render judgements.
 
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For me hearing that he could have been involved in human trafficking is where my sympathy stopped for him. He had an order not to be deported. That part was certainly a mistake. An admitted mistake, but the more you hear about this guy it sounds like karma. If you are a shit bird, you have shit bird things happen to you.
Thankfully our legal system isn’t organized around hearsay such as the feelings of random citizens “hearing he could have been involved in human trafficking”.
 
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I could not disagree more. The right of due process is one of the most important and foundational rights we have in this country. Any erosion risks further erosion. We have to hold the line here.

The difference between the two of us is I believes Trump aspires to authoritarianism and you don't. I feel I could lay out a very convincing and detailed case (as I have in the past) and it still wouldn't impact your view. You don't think Trump has it in him and I think he's already proven that he does.

As such, our perspective on these types of issues will never align.

EDIT: Case in point regarding the ongoing erosion of our rights.

There are other foundational truths that are being ignored and outright denied. They are more far reaching in that denying them undermines all truth. That is why we have people justifying murder and other heinous crimes. Emotion and feelings have replaced truth and this has been going on for quite some time. When you deny truths and discount the affects of these policies and stances you undermine our legal system and norms.
 
The 5th and 14th Amendments afford all persons in the United States due process, and he had a court-issued protective order preventing his deportation. Maybe he shouldn't have had that protection, maybe the judge is a commie, I can't say, and it doesn't matter. Go get the protective order overturned in court if you want to deport him.
Well I think the Supreme Court also ruled that the hearings should be somewhere outside of DC. Which will failed to mention.
 
Thankfully our legal system isn’t organized around hearsay such as the feelings of random citizens “hearing he could have been involved in human trafficking”.
I agree with you there. I didn’t say I thought he was guilty of it or even know if he is guilty of it. Just my sympathy for his situation went away. I agree he never should have been on any list to be deported. It also isn’t clear he should not have been deported in the first place. Which is also why we shouldn’t buy into random citizen’s bleeding heart opinions either. You don’t have a clue what he was involved in either.
 
There are other foundational truths that are being ignored and outright denied. They are more far reaching in that denying them undermines all truth. That is why we have people justifying murder and other heinous crimes. Emotion and feelings have replaced truth and this has been going on for quite some time. When you deny truths and discount the affects of these policies and stances you undermine our legal system and norms.
If I had any idea what point you are making, I would attempt to respond. But I don't, so I can't.

Well I think the Supreme Court also ruled that the hearings should be somewhere outside of DC. Which will failed to mention.
That's correct. SCOTUS determined that any hearing should take place in the jurisdiction where the person is detained.
 
Are you intentionally ending your recounting of his 2019 court case before it was completed or do you really not know what happened after the hearing you cite? Either was it’s a really bad look.

Yes, based solely off of ICE testimony, a judge initially determined that Garcia could be a threat to the community and ordered that he remain detained. That’s correct.

But what happened after that? Garcia and his lawyer made his case before a judge, who found him credible enough to grant the protective order against deportation and then release him back into the community. ICE did not object to his release.

Once Garcia was afforded due process (yes, I keep coming back to that), the court rendered a different finding. What you are suggesting is the equivalent of insisting that anyone who is indicted by a grand jury is guilty of the charged crime, which is of course nonsense.
  • Do you really not know what "happened after that"? Or are you intentionally being misleading? Either way it's a really bad look.
  • The Board of Immigration Appeals dismissed Garcia’s appeal and “affirmed the immigration judge’s findings on dangerousness.”
  • Six months later, Garcia filed a new claim, this time for asylum, “withholding of removal to El Salvador.”
  • Garcia was granted a withholding of removal to El Salvador. But that’s not the same as a legal right to stay in the United States, it just means that he has a legal right not to be removed to one specific country. That does not negate the any of the prior court findings...it merely restricted where he could be deported to.
  • Whether Garcia shouldn’t have been deported specifically to El Salvador doesn’t change the fact that he should have been removed from this country years ago.
 
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  • Do you really not know what "happened after that"? Or are you intentionally being misleading? Either way it's a really bad look.
  • The Board of Immigration Appeals dismissed Abrego Garcia’s appeal and “affirmed the immigration judge’s findings on dangerousness.”
  • Six months later, Abrego Garcia filed a new claim, this time for asylum, “withholding of removal to El Salvador.”
  • Garcia was granted a withholding of removal to El Salvador. But that’s not the same as a legal right to stay in the United States, it just means that he has a legal right not to be removed to one specific country. That does not negate the any of the prior court findings...it merely restricted where he could be deported to.
  • Whether Garcia shouldn’t have been deported specifically to El Salvador doesn’t change the fact that he should have been removed from this country years ago.
Curious that the immigration court released this supposedly dangerous gang member back into the public and ICE didn't even bother to object.

There is no evidence that I can find that the Board of Immigration Appeals dismissed Garcia's appeal or affirmed findings on "dangerousness." Instead, the case history indicates that Garcia was granted withholding of removal in 2019 due to the danger he faced in El Salvador, particularly from gang violence, and not because of any criminal or dangerous behavior on his part. You can correct me if I am wrong.

He initially sought asylum but was denied due to missing the one-year filing deadline. So he was granted withholding of removal, which is a more limited form of protection than asylum. Withholding of removal does not grant a legal right to stay permanently in the United States but prevents deportation to a specific country where the individual faces a significant risk of persecution or torture.

While withholding of removal does not provide a path to permanent residency or citizenship, it does allow individuals to remain in the U.S. legally and obtain work authorization as long as their status is maintained. This means Garcia was legally present in the U.S. under this status for several years before his wrongful deportation.

As much as you want it to be the case, the suggestion that Garcia "should have been removed from this country years ago" is hyperbole and it's not supported by the facts of his case.
 
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Curious that the immigration court released this supposedly dangerous gang member back into the public and ICE didn't even bother to object.

There is no evidence that I can find that the Board of Immigration Appeals dismissed Garcia's appeal or affirmed findings on "dangerousness." Instead, the case history indicates that Garcia was granted withholding of removal in 2019 due to the danger he faced in El Salvador, particularly from gang violence, and not because of any criminal or dangerous behavior on his part. You can correct me if I am wrong.

He initially sought asylum but was denied due to missing the one-year filing deadline. So he was granted withholding of removal, which is a more limited form of protection than asylum. Withholding of removal does not grant a legal right to stay permanently in the United States but prevents deportation to a specific country where the individual faces a significant risk of persecution or torture.

While withholding of removal does not provide a path to permanent residency or citizenship, it does allow individuals to remain in the U.S. legally and obtain work authorization as long as their status is maintained. This means Garcia was legally present in the U.S. under this status for several years before his wrongful deportation.

As much as you want it to be the case, the suggestion that Garcia "should have been removed from this country years ago" is hyperbole and it's not supported by the facts of his case.
Wonder who was President and who was the judge that heard the case back then. That would make it a lot clearer why he was released.
 
Wonder who was President and who was the judge that heard the case back then. That would make it a lot clearer why he was released.
2019, which means Trump was the president and ICE, which did not object to his release, was serving under DJT.
 
You misrepresent Garcia's legal standing and the proceedings. Your argument is factually incorrect.

Curious that the immigration court released this supposedly dangerous gang member back into the public and ICE didn't even bother to object.

Well, it really helps is you know the law if you're going to try to wield this in your argument the way you have.

There was a legal obligation to release him, once he was granted a withholding of removal to El Salvador. Since ICE did not immediately pursue deportation to a third country (there could be several viable reasons for this), they had no legal basis to continue detaining him. Withholding of removal effectively stalled his deportation to El Salvador, forcing his release.

ICE’s earlier objections were centered on the bond proceedings, where they successfully argued that he was a danger and a flight risk. However, the withholding of removal decision was a separate process that focused on the risk to Garcia in El Salvador, not his risk to others here. ICE’s "lack of objection" to his release after withholding was granted is irrelevant. They were bound by the judge’s ruling.

Why nothing more until recently? My guess is that soon after this there was this little thing called COVID, followed by the Biden administration.



There is no evidence that I can find that the Board of Immigration Appeals dismissed Garcia's appeal or affirmed findings on "dangerousness."

Your claim that there is "no evidence" is demonstrably false. Garcia appealed the immigration judge’s bond denial to the BIA, and the BIA "affirmed the immigration judge’s findings on dangerousness, and thus dismissed the appeal."

Here's your evidence:


Gnd6La-WcAA9JXI

The immigration judge’s determination of dangerousness was based on evidence of Garcia’s MS-13 membership, which was deemed sufficient to deny bond.

The finding that he was a member of MS-13 only came up because he asked for bond. The immigration judge reviewed the evidence and found that it "showed he is a verified member of MS-13." and that Garcia did not demonstrate "that his release from custody would not pose a danger to others."

More evidence:

Gnd5ZAXXkAEKTGq




Instead, the case history indicates that Garcia was granted withholding of removal in 2019 due to the danger he faced in El Salvador, particularly from gang violence, and not because of any criminal or dangerous behavior on his part. You can correct me if I am wrong.

The withholding of removal was a separate proceeding from the bond determination, and the two findings are not mutually exclusive. The dangerousness finding was upheld by the BIA, independent of the withholding decision.

He initially sought asylum but was denied due to missing the one-year filing deadline. So he was granted withholding of removal, which is a more limited form of protection than asylum. Withholding of removal does not grant a legal right to stay permanently in the United States but prevents deportation to a specific country where the individual faces a significant risk of persecution or torture.

While withholding of removal does not provide a path to permanent residency or citizenship, it does allow individuals to remain in the U.S. legally and obtain work authorization as long as their status is maintained. This means Garcia was legally present in the U.S. under this status for several years before his wrongful deportation.

You overstate the legal status conferred by withholding of removal, which does not confer legal status. Withholding of removal is not a legal right to stay in the United States, it's only a legal right to not be removed to one specific country.

Under 8 U.S.C. § 1231(b)(3) it prevents deportation to a specific country where the individual faces persecution, but it does not grant lawful presence or a path to permanent residency (unlike asylum).

Your "legally present" is technically incorrect. He was permitted to remain here without being deported to El Salvador, but he remained a removable alien subject to deportation to a third country.

Work authorization (8 C.F.R. § 274a.12(a)(10)), is a discretionary benefit and does not confer legal status. Garcia may have had work authorization, but he had NO LEGAL STATUS and only a temporary right not to be removed to El Salvador.


As much as you want it to be the case, the suggestion that Garcia "should have been removed from this country years ago" is hyperbole and it's not supported by the facts of his case.

He crossed the border illegally in 2012 by his own admission. He never gained legal status. He was finally detained in 2019, and found removable. He came up with a sob story to delay his deportation. He has no right to be in this country, he crossed our border illegally, and he has been residing in this country illegally for almost twelve years and was thus removable, totally independent of whether he was in MS-13.

His removability was determined in 2019, independent of any gang affiliation. The withholding of removal only prevented his deportation to El Salvador, not to a third country. As an illegal immigrant with no legal right to be here, he lacked any lawful status for over a decade.

The immigration judge and BIA’s findings that he was a verified MS-13 member provided grounds for his detention and removal, even without a criminal conviction.

The withholding of removal could have been terminated as early as 2022 due to a "fundamental change in circumstances" in El Salvador. President Bukele’s crackdown on gangs there, including the 18th Street Gang that Garcia claimed to fear, significantly reduced the threat. If that gang no longer posed a threat, his withholding of removal could have been legally terminated (8 C.F.R. § 1208.24(b)(1)), and he could have been deported to El Salvador years ago.

One other note on his "fear" of that gang: his story about the pupusa business and 18th Street Gang threats only emerged after his bond was denied in 2019. This was clearly a tactical move to delay deportation, especially since the claims lacked any corroborating evidence beyond family affidavits.

Remember the situation Garcia is in: He is facing imminent removal, given the ruling of the first immigration judge. He has two brothers who have green cards. His fiancé is a citizen, and has just given birth to his child. He clearly wants to stay.

He only came up with this story about his mom's pupusa business AFTER HE HAD BEEN DENIED BAIL.

As much as you want it to be the case, the suggestion that Garcia "should have been removed from this country years ago" is not hyperbole and your assertions are not supported by the facts of his case.
 
You misrepresent Garcia's legal standing and the proceedings. Your argument is factually incorrect.



Well, it really helps is you know the law if you're going to try to wield this in your argument the way you have.

There was a legal obligation to release him, once he was granted a withholding of removal to El Salvador. Since ICE did not immediately pursue deportation to a third country (there could be several viable reasons for this), they had no legal basis to continue detaining him. Withholding of removal effectively stalled his deportation to El Salvador, forcing his release.

ICE’s earlier objections were centered on the bond proceedings, where they successfully argued that he was a danger and a flight risk. However, the withholding of removal decision was a separate process that focused on the risk to Garcia in El Salvador, not his risk to others here. ICE’s "lack of objection" to his release after withholding was granted is irrelevant. They were bound by the judge’s ruling.

Why nothing more until recently? My guess is that soon after this there was this little thing called COVID, followed by the Biden administration.





Your claim that there is "no evidence" is demonstrably false. Garcia appealed the immigration judge’s bond denial to the BIA, and the BIA "affirmed the immigration judge’s findings on dangerousness, and thus dismissed the appeal."

Here's your evidence:


Gnd6La-WcAA9JXI

The immigration judge’s determination of dangerousness was based on evidence of Garcia’s MS-13 membership, which was deemed sufficient to deny bond.

The finding that he was a member of MS-13 only came up because he asked for bond. The immigration judge reviewed the evidence and found that it "showed he is a verified member of MS-13." and that Garcia did not demonstrate "that his release from custody would not pose a danger to others."

More evidence:

Gnd5ZAXXkAEKTGq






The withholding of removal was a separate proceeding from the bond determination, and the two findings are not mutually exclusive. The dangerousness finding was upheld by the BIA, independent of the withholding decision.



You overstate the legal status conferred by withholding of removal, which does not confer legal status. Withholding of removal is not a legal right to stay in the United States, it's only a legal right to not be removed to one specific country.

Under 8 U.S.C. § 1231(b)(3) it prevents deportation to a specific country where the individual faces persecution, but it does not grant lawful presence or a path to permanent residency (unlike asylum).

Your "legally present" is technically incorrect. He was permitted to remain here without being deported to El Salvador, but he remained a removable alien subject to deportation to a third country.

Work authorization (8 C.F.R. § 274a.12(a)(10)), is a discretionary benefit and does not confer legal status. Garcia may have had work authorization, but he had NO LEGAL STATUS and only a temporary right not to be removed to El Salvador.




He crossed the border illegally in 2012 by his own admission. He never gained legal status. He was finally detained in 2019, and found removable. He came up with a sob story to delay his deportation. He has no right to be in this country, he crossed our border illegally, and he has been residing in this country illegally for almost twelve years and was thus removable, totally independent of whether he was in MS-13.

His removability was determined in 2019, independent of any gang affiliation. The withholding of removal only prevented his deportation to El Salvador, not to a third country. As an illegal immigrant with no legal right to be here, he lacked any lawful status for over a decade.

The immigration judge and BIA’s findings that he was a verified MS-13 member provided grounds for his detention and removal, even without a criminal conviction.

The withholding of removal could have been terminated as early as 2022 due to a "fundamental change in circumstances" in El Salvador. President Bukele’s crackdown on gangs there, including the 18th Street Gang that Garcia claimed to fear, significantly reduced the threat. If that gang no longer posed a threat, his withholding of removal could have been legally terminated (8 C.F.R. § 1208.24(b)(1)), and he could have been deported to El Salvador years ago.

One other note on his "fear" of that gang: his story about the pupusa business and 18th Street Gang threats only emerged after his bond was denied in 2019. This was clearly a tactical move to delay deportation, especially since the claims lacked any corroborating evidence beyond family affidavits.

Remember the situation Garcia is in: He is facing imminent removal, given the ruling of the first immigration judge. He has two brothers who have green cards. His fiancé is a citizen, and has just given birth to his child. He clearly wants to stay.

He only came up with this story about his mom's pupusa business AFTER HE HAD BEEN DENIED BAIL.

As much as you want it to be the case, the suggestion that Garcia "should have been removed from this country years ago" is not hyperbole and your assertions are not supported by the facts of his case.
The bond hearing is a civil proceeding, not a criminal proceeding. A finding in a civil proceeding is not legally considered “proof” of an allegation.

The two pieces of evidence presented in the bond hearing was the word of one anonymous source and the fact Garcia was wearing a Bulls hat and jacket. No additional evidence was ever presented in the bond hearing or any other hearing.

Garcia was released from custody in 2019 and has complied with all ICE requirements (annual meetings and keeping them aware of his location) since then.

He has never been charged with or found guilty of a crime.

You pulled passages from the governments motions to dismiss their obvious screwup of deporting Garcia to El Salvador. Even they have admitted they screwed up.

If you think that constitutes “proof” of gang membership, I’ll continue to disagree. I believe the law is on my side.

When you characterize his case as a “sob story”, you clearly demonstrate your bias. You want Garcia to be a proven gang member as much as the prosecutors who screwed up his case want him to be a gang member because you don’t want Trump’s policy to look as capricious as it clearly is.

Well less than half the people sent off to the prison in El Salvador have criminal records. So much for the “most violent people”. That’s unconscionable.

The SCOTUS just determined 9-0 that these people deserve due process despite the fact that the administration was insisting that they didn’t.

Now the administration refuses to return the person they have admitted was illegally deported, because of course.

SCOTUS owes us a ruling on this and the administration is going to keep them very busy with similar cases in the future.
 
The bond hearing is a civil proceeding, not a criminal proceeding. A finding in a civil proceeding is not legally considered “proof” of an allegation. The two pieces of evidence presented in the bond hearing was the word of one anonymous source and the fact Garcia was wearing a Bulls hat and jacket. No additional evidence was ever presented in the bond hearing or any other hearing.


Again, you are incorrect.

The finding of MS-13 membership in the bond hearing was legally sufficient under civil standards, and the evidence was more substantial than just an anonymous source and a Bulls hat/jacket, which the BIA affirmed.

Bond hearings in immigration court are civil proceedings, but the standard for denying bond is a “preponderance of the evidence” showing the individual poses a danger to the community or a flight risk. The immigration judge found Garcia to be a danger due to MS-13 membership , and the BIA affirmed this finding as not “clearly erroneous”. This meets the civil standard of proof, contrary to your claim that such a finding isn’t “legally considered proof.”

The bond memorandum states the judge found Garcia to be a “verified member of MS-13” based on evidence presented. The BIA document notes the judge’s finding was supported by “information… in the record,” suggesting more than just an informant and clothing. Additionally, you are glossing over the reliability of the source, which was detailed in the court documents.

Additionally, the WH has cited “multiple pieces of proof” of MS-13 ties, including alleged human trafficking involvement, which ICE and DHS had access to. Although you dismisses this, the court’s relied on the evidence (upheld by the BIA) which indicates it met the legal threshold for a bond denial.


Garcia was released from custody in 2019 and has complied with all ICE requirements (annual meetings and keeping them aware of his location) since then.


He has never been charged with or found guilty of a crime.

This does not negate the findings of dangerousness or his removability and compliance did not legitimize his presence.
The bond denial was based on MS-13 affiliation, not a criminal conviction. Immigration law allows bond denial based on dangerousness without a criminal record, and the BIA upheld this. His lack of convictions does not erase the court’s finding of gang membership.


You pulled passages from the governments motions to dismiss their obvious screwup of deporting Garcia to El Salvador. Even they have admitted they screwed up.

If you think that constitutes “proof” of gang membership, I’ll continue to disagree. I believe the law is on my side.

It was a screw up. But, the government’s admission of an administrative error in deporting Garcia does not negate the earlier MS-13 finding, which was legally established.
The error was in the deportation process, not the MS-13 finding from 2019.
Again, he MS-13 finding was made during the 2019 bond hearing and affirmed by the BIA. The government’s later error does not retroactively invalidate this finding, which was based on evidence the court deemed sufficient. Thus, it which remains legally valid proof of gang membership in the context of the bond hearing


When you characterize his case as a “sob story”, you clearly demonstrate your bias. You want Garcia to be a proven gang member as much as the prosecutors who screwed up his case want him to be a gang member because you don’t want Trump’s policy to look as capricious as it clearly is.

No, I believe that he lied to avoid deportation, as I outlined in the previous post by the timing and lack of corroboration, and my argument is grounded in legal facts. I'm not going to get into your obvious bias on this subject, so there's no need to project on to me what you believe my thought process is.
Again, the story about the 18th Street Gang targeting his family’s pupusa business only emerged after his bond was denied. There is a complete lack of corroborating evidence beyond family affidavits (who clearly have reasons to want him to avoid deportation) and an eight-year delay in raising this claim.

This clearly suggests the story may have been a tactical move to delay deportation, a reasonable inference given the timing which I can hope you can at least acknowledge.
My argument is not about defending Trump’s policy but about the legal merits of Garcia’s case. I show how Garcia had no legal status, was found to be an MS-13 member, and could have had his withholding terminated after 2022 due to changed circumstances in El Salvador. My critique is rooted in court documents and immigration law, not a desire to justify Trump’s policy.
My "sob story" label is a reasonable interpretation of the evidence, not bias.


Well less than half the people sent off to the prison in El Salvador have criminal records. So much for the “most violent people”. That’s unconscionable.

This does not disprove Garcia’s MS-13 finding and justifies his classification as a dangerous individual under US policy.

The SCOTUS just determined 9-0 that these people deserve due process despite the fact that the administration was insisting that they didn’t.

Now the administration refuses to return the person they have admitted was illegally deported, because of course.

SCOTUS temporarily allowed them to continue keeping him in El Salvador pending further proceedings.

The administration may be leveraging the SCOTUS ruling’s jurisdictional finding to delay his return while arguing that his withholding should be terminated (likely for the reasons I addressed earlier). The SCOTUS decision allows for such a process, as it requires only an opportunity to contest, not a guaranteed return.


SCOTUS owes us a ruling on this and the administration is going to keep them very busy with similar cases in the future.

Here, we agree.
 
If I had any idea what point you are making, I would attempt to respond. But I don't, so I can't.


That's correct. SCOTUS determined that any hearing should take place in the jurisdiction where the person is detained.
Exactly. That is why it is not worth trying to discuss. You have no idea just like you had no idea Biden was suffering mentally. You do not want to know or acknowledge certain things when they do not fit your narrative. There has been an assault on truth for many years and both parties have been complicit. The left is in the drivers seat now and the right has been quiet mostly. There are things that are more important than either party and we the people need to stand together and call out these lies. That is why young people are so confused and suffering. The truths, norms and boundaries have been distorted and perverted to the point feelings trump truth.
 
Again, you are incorrect.

The finding of MS-13 membership in the bond hearing was legally sufficient under civil standards, and the evidence was more substantial than just an anonymous source and a Bulls hat/jacket, which the BIA affirmed.

Bond hearings in immigration court are civil proceedings, but the standard for denying bond is a “preponderance of the evidence” showing the individual poses a danger to the community or a flight risk. The immigration judge found Garcia to be a danger due to MS-13 membership , and the BIA affirmed this finding as not “clearly erroneous”. This meets the civil standard of proof, contrary to your claim that such a finding isn’t “legally considered proof.”

The bond memorandum states the judge found Garcia to be a “verified member of MS-13” based on evidence presented. The BIA document notes the judge’s finding was supported by “information… in the record,” suggesting more than just an informant and clothing. Additionally, you are glossing over the reliability of the source, which was detailed in the court documents.

Additionally, the WH has cited “multiple pieces of proof” of MS-13 ties, including alleged human trafficking involvement, which ICE and DHS had access to. Although you dismisses this, the court’s relied on the evidence (upheld by the BIA) which indicates it met the legal threshold for a bond denial.



This does not negate the findings of dangerousness or his removability and compliance did not legitimize his presence.
The bond denial was based on MS-13 affiliation, not a criminal conviction. Immigration law allows bond denial based on dangerousness without a criminal record, and the BIA upheld this. His lack of convictions does not erase the court’s finding of gang membership.




It was a screw up. But, the government’s admission of an administrative error in deporting Garcia does not negate the earlier MS-13 finding, which was legally established.
The error was in the deportation process, not the MS-13 finding from 2019.
Again, he MS-13 finding was made during the 2019 bond hearing and affirmed by the BIA. The government’s later error does not retroactively invalidate this finding, which was based on evidence the court deemed sufficient. Thus, it which remains legally valid proof of gang membership in the context of the bond hearing



No, I believe that he lied to avoid deportation, as I outlined in the previous post by the timing and lack of corroboration, and my argument is grounded in legal facts. I'm not going to get into your obvious bias on this subject, so there's no need to project on to me what you believe my thought process is.
Again, the story about the 18th Street Gang targeting his family’s pupusa business only emerged after his bond was denied. There is a complete lack of corroborating evidence beyond family affidavits (who clearly have reasons to want him to avoid deportation) and an eight-year delay in raising this claim.

This clearly suggests the story may have been a tactical move to delay deportation, a reasonable inference given the timing which I can hope you can at least acknowledge.
My argument is not about defending Trump’s policy but about the legal merits of Garcia’s case. I show how Garcia had no legal status, was found to be an MS-13 member, and could have had his withholding terminated after 2022 due to changed circumstances in El Salvador. My critique is rooted in court documents and immigration law, not a desire to justify Trump’s policy.
My "sob story" label is a reasonable interpretation of the evidence, not bias.




This does not disprove Garcia’s MS-13 finding and justifies his classification as a dangerous individual under US policy.



SCOTUS temporarily allowed them to continue keeping him in El Salvador pending further proceedings.

The administration may be leveraging the SCOTUS ruling’s jurisdictional finding to delay his return while arguing that his withholding should be terminated (likely for the reasons I addressed earlier). The SCOTUS decision allows for such a process, as it requires only an opportunity to contest, not a guaranteed return.



Here, we agree.
The bond hearing finding is not a final adjudication of gang membership, nor does it carry the same weight as a full merits hearing.

The same IJ later granted Garcia the withholding of removal in a merits hearing after reviewing the full case. That judge found Garcia credible and at risk of persecution if returned.

The bond hearing finding that Garcia was a gang member was made under a lower evidentiary threshold and for detention purposes only.

In the merits hearing, the same judge found Garcia credible and granted him relief — a much stronger legal protection, suggesting the gang allegations didn’t hold up under closer scrutiny.

Bottom line, a merits hearing is more complete, comprehensive, and legally consequential than a bond hearing. While bond decisions can involve serious allegations, they are preliminary and do not carry the same weight as findings made after a full evidentiary hearing. In the merits hearing, Garcia was granted the protective order and released. His sob story must have resonated with the judge.

Done at this point. I’ll read wherever more you care to post, but I have no more to offer.
 
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