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NonDawg So the Big Tech monopolies

Hoffman_rg

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are using the First Amendment as a defense to trample on the First Amendment rights of people whose opinions they don’t like. So 3 far left dudes in California who donated millions to dem candidates and used their companies to interfere with the 2020 election are now the arbiters of truth. Unbelievable yet that is where the marketplace of ideas stands today

Congress is totally useless and at least the lawsuit Trump announced today gives me hope.
 
are using the First Amendment as a defense to trample on the First Amendment rights of people whose opinions they don’t like. So 3 far left dudes in California who donated millions to dem candidates and used their companies to interfere with the 2020 election are now the arbiters of truth. Unbelievable yet that is where the marketplace of ideas stands today

Congress is totally useless and at least the lawsuit Trump announced today gives me hope.
I'll bet you money now the lawsuit doesn't go anywhere
 
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Now that is funny, since Trump has such a good record with frivolous lawsuits.

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Seems like a lot of arrogance in this thread. Most agree with you on the potential success of the lawsuit but who knows for sure. First this is not all about Trump. It is a class action lawsuit which will have thousands joining in the lawsuit.
I am more interested in the necessity for change than predicting the potential outcome of the suit since I am not a lawyer. However you have to admit that It is “unprecedented, for the control of so much speech to be in the hands of a few private parties.” Somehow there must be laws that restrict the platform’s right to exclude. Maybe lawsuits by those affected is one possibility.

In the recent past the media giants have openly helped democrats. They censored the NY Post story on Hunter's laptop which could have flipped the election. There are many other examples in which their censoring interfered in the election. That is unacceptable and something must be done.
 
Seems like a lot of arrogance in this thread. Most agree with you on the potential success of the lawsuit but who knows for sure. First this is not all about Trump. It is a class action lawsuit which will have thousands joining in the lawsuit.
I am more interested in the necessity for change than predicting the potential outcome of the suit since I am not a lawyer. However you have to admit that It is “unprecedented, for the control of so much speech to be in the hands of a few private parties.” Somehow there must be laws that restrict the platform’s right to exclude. Maybe lawsuits by those affected is one possibility.

In the recent past the media giants have openly helped democrats. They censored the NY Post story on Hunter's laptop which could have flipped the election. There are many other examples in which their censoring interfered in the election. That is unacceptable and something must be done.
Seems like a lot of arrogance in this thread. Most agree with you on the potential success of the lawsuit but who knows for sure. First this is not all about Trump. It is a class action lawsuit which will have thousands joining in the lawsuit.
I am more interested in the necessity for change than predicting the potential outcome of the suit since I am not a lawyer. However you have to admit that It is “unprecedented, for the control of so much speech to be in the hands of a few private parties.” Somehow there must be laws that restrict the platform’s right to exclude. Maybe lawsuits by those affected is one possibility.

In the recent past the media giants have openly helped democrats. They censored the NY Post story on Hunter's laptop which could have flipped the election. There are many other examples in which their censoring interfered in the election. That is unacceptable and something must be done.
All people have the right to free speech not just the libs and dems.
 
are using the First Amendment as a defense to trample on the First Amendment rights of people whose opinions they don’t like. So 3 far left dudes in California who donated millions to dem candidates and used their companies to interfere with the 2020 election are now the arbiters of truth. Unbelievable yet that is where the marketplace of ideas stands today

Congress is totally useless and at least the lawsuit Trump announced today gives me hope.
Maybe you should reread the 1st amendment…doesn’t say anything about companies limiting your speech
 
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are using the First Amendment as a defense to trample on the First Amendment rights of people whose opinions they don’t like. So 3 far left dudes in California who donated millions to dem candidates and used their companies to interfere with the 2020 election are now the arbiters of truth. Unbelievable yet that is where the marketplace of ideas stands today

Congress is totally useless and at least the lawsuit Trump announced today gives me hope.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This in no way applies to private corporations, much less private corporations that provide a service free of charge with a very detailed "terms of use". You don't have to be a constitutional scholar to understand this.
 
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This in no way applies to private corporations, much less private corporations that provide a service free of charge with a very detailed "terms of use". You don't have to be a constitutional scholar to understand this.
In general, you are correct. However, regulation of free speech in the modern world is not a done deal. Section 230 is fundamentally flawed IMO because it distinguishes social media companies from telecom companies as far as regulating the speech of users go.

Telecom companies are considered "common carriers" and in a nutshell, they can't monitor and restrict speech but they are also not liable for the speech crossing their wires and waves.

The mistake was designating social media companies as content providers instead of service providers like the telcos. Content providers have their own set of rules which is what is being disputed in the Sec 230 debate. The only way that distinction can be valid is that our posts are considered content and not communication between entities.

Things to consider...

If Facebook arranges a production and streams it for public consumption, that would be considered content in my mind.

When people post information, who does that information belong to, the poster or Facebook? The moment you post are you giving Facebook ownership of your words thereby making it content before delivery to the intended audience? If so, can Facebook sue you for repeating those words as they would be the owners of that content? Same thing with images and video, who owns the content? If the poster owns the content, then Facebook isn't providing content, they are providing a service that allows users to share content. If Facebook owns the content, do they have distribution rights going forward? Does Facebook in effect own everything about you that you've ever posted?

I haven't kept up with the TOS, but Facebook can use your posted content as long as it's up. That said, users still have the ability to purge their posted content and even close their account. Can Facebook continue to use archived information after it has been deleted from their production facing service? Have they tried? Has it ever been challenged in court?

The 40,000' view says the telecom battle of the 90s has shifted to the content providers today. Will the end result be the same that private companies cannot censor individuals or will Sec 230 survive?

Who knows how this will end, but it's not settled yet. Once we get past Trump's involvement, I believe this case will make clear the content provider role just like service providers of the 90s.
 
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This in no way applies to private corporations, much less private corporations that provide a service free of charge with a very detailed "terms of use". You don't have to be a constitutional scholar to understand this.
I understand what you’re saying but when they start going politics It changes things!
 
In general, you are correct. However, regulation of free speech in the modern world is not a done deal. Section 230 is fundamentally flawed IMO because it distinguishes social media companies from telecom companies as far as regulating the speech of users go.

Telecom companies are considered "common carriers" and in a nutshell, they can't monitor and restrict speech but they are also not liable for the speech crossing their wires and waves.

The mistake was designating social media companies as content providers instead of service providers like the telcos. Content providers have their own set of rules which is what is being disputed in the Sec 230 debate. The only way that distinction can be valid is that our posts are considered content and not communication between entities.

Things to consider...

If Facebook arranges a production and streams it for public consumption, that would be considered content in my mind.

When people post information, who does that information belong to, the poster or Facebook? The moment you post are you giving Facebook ownership of your words thereby making it content before delivery to the intended audience? If so, can Facebook sue you for repeating those words as they would be the owners of that content? Same thing with images and video, who owns the content? If the poster owns the content, then Facebook isn't providing content, they are providing a service that allows users to share content. If Facebook owns the content, do they have distribution rights going forward? Does Facebook in effect own everything about you that you've ever posted?

I haven't kept up with the TOS, but Facebook can use your posted content as long as it's up. That said, users still have the ability to purge their posted content and even close their account. Can Facebook continue to use archived information after it has been deleted from their production facing service? Have they tried? Has it ever been challenged in court?

The 40,000' view says the telecom battle of the 90s has shifted to the content providers today. Will the end result be the same that private companies cannot censor individuals or will Sec 230 survive?

Who knows how this will end, but it's not settled yet. Once we get past Trump's involvement, I believe this case will make clear the content provider role just like service providers of the 90s.
Telecom is very different than social media. When you call somebody, 99% of the time you are talking to one person. What is said is between you and the person you are talking to. Unless the NSA is after you.

Popular people on social media can impact a company’s brand. Whether you like it or not, when you sign up on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter you are a content producer for them. Their revenue stream is directly related to users.

I think arguing first speech is completely wrong unless you are tying it into Facebook and Twitter acting like a monopoly (or oligopoly) in the industry. Then you have to ask yourself do people have to look at social media to get info? The tv and radio still reach about 100% of people.
 
Telecom is very different than social media. When you call somebody, 99% of the time you are talking to one person. What is said is between you and the person you are talking to. Unless the NSA is after you.

Popular people on social media can impact a company’s brand. Whether you like it or not, when you sign up on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter you are a content producer for them. Their revenue stream is directly related to users.

I think arguing first speech is completely wrong unless you are tying it into Facebook and Twitter acting like a monopoly (or oligopoly) in the industry. Then you have to ask yourself do people have to look at social media to get info? The tv and radio still reach about 100% of people.
Can you back that position up in legal terms? Where did you come up with that 99% number and how would that look as written in a law?

Three way calling was a thing 30 years ago and highly marketed. Conference calls are a thing too. Can telcos monitor and restrict speech conducted on those?

What's the limit on number of people an individual is allowed to reach? What criteria is used to establish that limit?

I can't see your content on Facebook unless I friend you and even then you control who sees your content. I can also see your comment posted to pages and channels we both subscribe to so it's not forced on you. Everything about the platform gives the poster the power to control their own content for the world to see, thus it suggests that the platform is a service that enables its users to provide content. That's the legal argument I would use arguing that social media platforms provide a service to content providers.

As for brand, associating a famous person's content to the provider is a weak argument. If anything, the notoriety of carrying the content has directly benefited popular social media platforms by welcoming more users wanting to see and respond to future hot button comment.

Wouldn't material damage to the brand of the social media platform have to be proven? Going to have a hard time making that case based on the increased subscriber base and market value of Facebook and the like.

As for the discussion of what people have to use to get info, 100% people don't have to use TV or telephone for all info. Those technologies are ubiquitous, but so is the Internet and specifically social media have become a preferred medium of communication and information dissemination. Just ask the newspaper, TV, and radio industries about the power of the Internet in today's world and how all 3 had to shift their operations to largely include a presence on the Internet to stay relevant. That right there shows how powerful a player social media has become with the Internet becoming the dominant medium over waves and even traditional cable TV.

There's a lot to unpack and it's not going to be as simple as you think.
 
Can you back that position up in legal terms? Where did you come up with that 99% number and how would that look as written in a law?

Three way calling was a thing 30 years ago and highly marketed. Conference calls are a thing too. Can telcos monitor and restrict speech conducted on those?

What's the limit on number of people an individual is allowed to reach? What criteria is used to establish that limit?

I can't see your content on Facebook unless I friend you and even then you control who sees your content. I can also see your comment posted to pages and channels we both subscribe to so it's not forced on you. Everything about the platform gives the poster the power to control their own content for the world to see, thus it suggests that the platform is a service that enables its users to provide content. That's the legal argument I would use arguing that social media platforms provide a service to content providers.

As for brand, associating a famous person's content to the provider is a weak argument. If anything, the notoriety of carrying the content has directly benefited popular social media platforms by welcoming more users wanting to see and respond to future hot button comment.

Wouldn't material damage to the brand of the social media platform have to be proven? Going to have a hard time making that case based on the increased subscriber base and market value of Facebook and the like.

As for the discussion of what people have to use to get info, 100% people don't have to use TV or telephone for all info. Those technologies are ubiquitous, but so is the Internet and specifically social media have become a preferred medium of communication and information dissemination. Just ask the newspaper, TV, and radio industries about the power of the Internet in today's world and how all 3 had to shift their operations to largely include a presence on the Internet to stay relevant. That right there shows how powerful a player social media has become with the Internet becoming the dominant medium over waves and even traditional cable TV.

There's a lot to unpack and it's not going to be as simple as you think.



The digital platforms are manipulating and controlling public debate and hiding behind the first amendment. They collude with each other to provide a united front on major issues,
Government agencies use the vast reach of Big tech to persuade public opinion on certain issues. Dr. Fauci colluded with Zuckerburg and Facebook to persuade publlic opinion the idea that the covid 19 came from the wet market & they censored doctors who said that HCQ was dangerous and shouldn't be used. In each case, lives could have been saved if not for censorship.
By censoring and banning Donald Trump they are banning the leader of the largest party in America, they are essentially limiting the free speech of 75MM Americans.
Dems have also slyly developed a system of left wing fact checkers which give their opinions not necessarily facts. The digital media uses these fact checkers as a pretext to censor other points of view especially Trump's
 
The digital platforms are manipulating and controlling public debate and hiding behind the first amendment. They collude with each other to provide a united front on major issues,
Government agencies use the vast reach of Big tech to persuade public opinion on certain issues. Dr. Fauci colluded with Zuckerburg and Facebook to persuade publlic opinion the idea that the covid 19 came from the wet market & they censored doctors who said that HCQ was dangerous and shouldn't be used. In each case, lives could have been saved if not for censorship. It seems to me that a case could be made that govt is censoring free speech.
By censoring and banning Donald Trump they are banning the leader of the largest party in America, they are essentially limiting the free speech of 75MM Americans.
Dems have also slyly developed a system of left wing fact checkers which give their opinions not necessarily facts. The digital media uses these fact checkers as a pretext to censor other points of view especially Trump's
 
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Seems like a lot of arrogance in this thread. Most agree with you on the potential success of the lawsuit but who knows for sure. First this is not all about Trump. It is a class action lawsuit which will have thousands joining in the lawsuit.
I am more interested in the necessity for change than predicting the potential outcome of the suit since I am not a lawyer. However you have to admit that It is “unprecedented, for the control of so much speech to be in the hands of a few private parties.” Somehow there must be laws that restrict the platform’s right to exclude. Maybe lawsuits by those affected is one possibility.

In the recent past the media giants have openly helped democrats. They censored the NY Post story on Hunter's laptop which could have flipped the election. There are many other examples in which their censoring interfered in the election. That is unacceptable and something must be done.
The censoring of the Hunter Biden story should concern anyone on any side of the political spectrum, if you care about something being more important than your own politics being in power.

Yet... nada. Not a peep.

We have seen this play out repeatedly the last two years. Censoring anti-Biden stories. Censoring Wuhan Virology role in spread of virus. Censoring plainly factual points of view on COVID that did not follow the leftist narrative.

Now Facebook is encouraging you to drop a dime on anyone you think is "becoming extremist".

Better set down that intoxicating jar of government money and Silicon Valley shiny objects long enough to see what is happening right in front of you.

Facebook-Notification.jpg
 
Can you back that position up in legal terms? Where did you come up with that 99% number and how would that look as written in a law?

Three way calling was a thing 30 years ago and highly marketed. Conference calls are a thing too. Can telcos monitor and restrict speech conducted on those?

What's the limit on number of people an individual is allowed to reach? What criteria is used to establish that limit?

I can't see your content on Facebook unless I friend you and even then you control who sees your content. I can also see your comment posted to pages and channels we both subscribe to so it's not forced on you. Everything about the platform gives the poster the power to control their own content for the world to see, thus it suggests that the platform is a service that enables its users to provide content. That's the legal argument I would use arguing that social media platforms provide a service to content providers.

As for brand, associating a famous person's content to the provider is a weak argument. If anything, the notoriety of carrying the content has directly benefited popular social media platforms by welcoming more users wanting to see and respond to future hot button comment.

Wouldn't material damage to the brand of the social media platform have to be proven? Going to have a hard time making that case based on the increased subscriber base and market value of Facebook and the like.

As for the discussion of what people have to use to get info, 100% people don't have to use TV or telephone for all info. Those technologies are ubiquitous, but so is the Internet and specifically social media have become a preferred medium of communication and information dissemination. Just ask the newspaper, TV, and radio industries about the power of the Internet in today's world and how all 3 had to shift their operations to largely include a presence on the Internet to stay relevant. That right there shows how powerful a player social media has become with the Internet becoming the dominant medium over waves and even traditional cable TV.

There's a lot to unpack and it's not going to be as simple as you think.
When the telco laws were put in place the telcos in this country were monopolies. If I lived in the SE and wanted phone service, ATT and then after that was broken up BellSouth was the only option. Also, the reason they were a monopoly is because they owned and maintained the physical infrastructure of lines and switching stations, which made competition virtually impossible until it was required via legislation.

No such dynamic exists in any with with social media. As we have already seen, there are no barriers to launching a competitor to Twitter or Facebook beyond requiring a relatively modest amount of capital to build and maintain the platform and market the offering. There is no user switching cost, simply enter a different url or download a new app.

There is not much of a discussion to have regarding whether FB is subject to anti-monopoly laws. There is no discussion to have regarding applicability of the 1st Amendment.
 
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The digital platforms are manipulating and controlling public debate and hiding behind the first amendment. They collude with each other to provide a united front on major issues,
Government agencies use the vast reach of Big tech to persuade public opinion on certain issues. Dr. Fauci colluded with Zuckerburg and Facebook to persuade publlic opinion the idea that the covid 19 came from the wet market & they censored doctors who said that HCQ was dangerous and shouldn't be used. In each case, lives could have been saved if not for censorship.
By censoring and banning Donald Trump they are banning the leader of the largest party in America, they are essentially limiting the free speech of 75MM Americans.
Dems have also slyly developed a system of left wing fact checkers which give their opinions not necessarily facts. The digital media uses these fact checkers as a pretext to censor other points of view especially Trump's
They are not banning his free speech…he can still say whatever he wants. They just aren’t letting him use their platforms to broadcast his speech to the world. Same thing with any other content platform save Newsmax and Fox News. No one who has a microphone is obligated to let Trump use it.
 
When the telco laws were put in place the telcos in this country were monopolies. If I lived in the SE and wanted phone service, ATT and then after that was broken up BellSouth was the only option. Also, the reason they were a monopoly is because they owned and maintained the physical infrastructure of lines and switching stations, which made competition virtually impossible until it was required via legislation.

No such dynamic exists in any with with social media. As we have already seen, there are no barriers to launching a competitor to Twitter or Facebook beyond requiring a relatively modest amount of capital to build and maintain the platform and market the offering. There is no user switching cost, simply enter a different url or download a new app.

There is not much of a discussion to have regarding whether FB is subject to anti-monopoly laws. There is no discussion to have regarding applicability of the 1st Amendment.
That's when collusion and censorship show their faces in a different light and probably why Google is included in the lawsuit. I'm surprised Apple hasn't been named too, or have they?

Remember when alternative services like Gab launched and both Google and Apple threatened to block their apps from their respective app stores if they didn't comply with certain content monitoring terms (i.e. block Trump and many right leaning people/groups)? Several hosting companies also blocked these alternative social media offerings until they agreed to comply.

These companies have opened the door for there to be a case because it's obvious they were out to silence a large group of people.

How it's decided is up to the arguments and the courts. Of course we wouldn't need to waste time and money on a judicial system if we decided things on message boards.

I have no idea how this is going to end. I'm just saying it's not as open and shut as you folks claim.
 
Current legislation wasn’t designed to address social media platforms.

While these are private companies, they are providing the 21st Century equivalent of a public square where citizens may exercise their 1st Amendment rights for better or worse. Nobody wants to hear the Klan guy yapping at the town square but he absolutely had the right to speak.

For example, If a private business can be sued for not baking a cake for a gay marriage, then it stands to reason that a private company that would censor or remove anti-gay speech from their platform could also be sued for selectively denying those individuals access to a platform specifically design to provide such access. Both acts are selective denial of a service. It’s not illegal to be against gay marriage. It has been shown to be illegal to refuse business to people because they are gay.

Pick your controversial topic, short of breaking laws individuals can say anything they want but there are consequences for what they say that are usually carried out in the court of public opinion.

These tech companies are woefully unprepared to be the arbiters of responsibility for the speech on their platforms. Even though they are private, these service are more aligned to that of communications common carriers and should be treated as such.

The ability for any single common individual to reach and organize large audiences at scale is unprecedented in history. We will see small clusters of fringe groups turn into large ones because they will find each other and dealing with them will be a work in progress but you can’t shut them out of the platform because you disagree with them. Mostly it will be about hitting the ignore button.
 
Current legislation wasn’t designed to address social media platforms.

While these are private companies, they are providing the 21st Century equivalent of a public square where citizens may exercise their 1st Amendment rights for better or worse. Nobody wants to hear the Klan guy yapping at the town square but he absolutely had the right to speak.

For example, If a private business can be sued for not baking a cake for a gay marriage, then it stands to reason that a private company that would censor or remove anti-gay speech from their platform could also be sued for selectively denying those individuals access to a platform specifically design to provide such access. Both acts are selective denial of a service. It’s not illegal to be against gay marriage. It has been shown to be illegal to refuse business to people because they are gay.

Pick your controversial topic, short of breaking laws individuals can say anything they want but there are consequences for what they say that are usually carried out in the court of public opinion.

These tech companies are woefully unprepared to be the arbiters of responsibility for the speech on their platforms. Even though they are private, these service are more aligned to that of communications common carriers and should be treated as such.

The ability for any single common individual to reach and organize large audiences at scale is unprecedented in history. We will see small clusters of fringe groups turn into large ones because they will find each other and dealing with them will be a work in progress but you can’t shut them out of the platform because you disagree with them. Mostly it will be about hitting the ignore button.
I don’t understand how you are equating private companies that receive no direct funding from the government (I could make several comments about our current corporate tax structure but will save that for another thread) with a public space owned and maintained by the government. They are in no way similar and the latter is not the modern version of the former.

I may own a prime piece of real estate that provides access to many people, but I have no requirement to host a klan rally. That’s why the 1st Amendment explicitly identifies the government as the applicable entity.

The gay cake example is an interesting one, but I believe at least part of the difference is that gays are a specifically identified minority class. Personally, my first reaction would be that if a bakery doesn’t want to make my cake I will take my business elsewhere. But if you view this through a historical lens and apply the same thought process to other minorities, like blacks, it gets ugly quickly.

Regardless, all social media companies have exceeding long and detailed terms
of use. There may be an argument regarding whether those agreements that we all accept when we utilize those free platforms are constitutional or not, but the debate has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment.
 
I don’t understand how you are equating private companies that receive no direct funding from the government (I could make several comments about our current corporate tax structure but will save that for another thread) with a public space owned and maintained by the government. They are in no way similar and the latter is not the modern version of the former.

I may own a prime piece of real estate that provides access to many people, but I have no requirement to host a klan rally. That’s why the 1st Amendment explicitly identifies the government as the applicable entity.

The gay cake example is an interesting one, but I believe at least part of the difference is that gays are a specifically identified minority class. Personally, my first reaction would be that if a bakery doesn’t want to make my cake I will take my business elsewhere. But if you view this through a historical lens and apply the same thought process to other minorities, like blacks, it gets ugly quickly.

Regardless, all social media companies have exceeding long and detailed terms
of use. There may be an argument regarding whether those agreements that we all accept when we utilize those free platforms are constitutional or not, but the debate has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment.
These questions aren't resolved though which is why it's best to see how it plays out instead of claiming you know the outcome already.

In the case of the "gay cake", the Colorado Civil Rights Commission ruled against the baker. The Supreme Court overturned that ruling specifically because it felt that the Commission showed anti-religious bias in their ruling against the baker. The SC went on to say that the issue of a private business discriminating based on religious beliefs is unresolved and they'd expect to revisit the topic in the future.

There are 2 conflicting issues. First, a business generally cannot discriminate against a protected class. Second, religious beliefs are a 1A issue. Truth be told, the 3 major Abrahamic religions all have anti-homosexual positions.

Can an individual or a business be forced to create a product that conflicts with their religious beliefs?

Keep in mind there is a big difference between selling a gay couple a cake and the couple specifically asking the baker to put imagery on the cake that is contrary to their beliefs.

To me, the reasonable compromise is to buy the cake and put the homosexual cake topper on yourself...simple. It stands to reason that a religious baker doesn't have a homosexual topper or art pattern in their list of services so the burden of extra should be on the purchaser.

But notice that in that case, neither Colorado or the SC authorized a ban on the gay couple from using the bakery nor did either authority rule that the bakery has to cease operations.

Social media companies have terms of service, but those don't rise to the level of religious doctrine. They pretty much told on themselves by implementing fact checkers because the grounds they are using to justify censorship, suspensions, and bans are to prevent the spread of misinformation. What authority do they have to declare what is factual or not when matters aren't even settled?

Can Facebook ban someone for posting that UGA is the real national champion from 2017? It's misinformation but is it ban worthy? How many people have been banned for discussing the Kennedy assassination, moon landing, or flat Earth conspiracy theories?

Social media companies can easily be exposed for not moderating "misinformation" equally which opens the door wider to point out that they are discriminating against a specific group of people.

Like I've said before, I don't know how this ends, but there's a legal conversation to be had.
 
I don’t understand how you are equating private companies that receive no direct funding from the government (I could make several comments about our current corporate tax structure but will save that for another thread) with a public space owned and maintained by the government. They are in no way similar and the latter is not the modern version of the former.

I may own a prime piece of real estate that provides access to many people, but I have no requirement to host a klan rally. That’s why the 1st Amendment explicitly identifies the government as the applicable entity.

The gay cake example is an interesting one, but I believe at least part of the difference is that gays are a specifically identified minority class. Personally, my first reaction would be that if a bakery doesn’t want to make my cake I will take my business elsewhere. But if you view this through a historical lens and apply the same thought process to other minorities, like blacks, it gets ugly quickly.

Regardless, all social media companies have exceeding long and detailed terms
of use. There may be an argument regarding whether those agreements that we all accept when we utilize those free platforms are constitutional or not, but the debate has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment.
I don’t disagree with anything you say under current law but believe social media platforms need to be addressed as a unique regulated service. The Bell System originated in 1877 and didn’t go under regulation until 1913. That was monopoly driven but the social media carriers are starting to enter that territory.

Of course you don’t have host a Klan meeting on private property but the social media providers are in effect letting them have a virtual offsite meeting. If a Bell Company can’t deny them the right to conference calling, then it’s a short walk to modern multimedia communications. If there are initiatives to make internet access a basic service, then to deny access to groups of people because the private entity doesn’t like them is a slippery slope. Texted hate speech or voice hate speech is still hate speech. The fact that it’s published and becomes content is really just an artifact of how people communicate In modern society.

I’d rather not see the Klan on the net but arbitrary suppression of their right to access to what is basically a public platform by a private entity and is running over common carrier infrastructure needs to be addresses and codified by law. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and currently we’re letting private companies define beauty. Let the government define basic safeguards and don’t make the providers make those decisions. Otherwise I see a longer term risk of mob rule and suppression of free thought.

I don’t agree with a lot of crap on social media but the right to freedom of expression is more important. Allow free flow and access to ideas and information and let the citizenry sort it out.
 
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I don’t disagree with anything you say under current law but believe social media platforms need to be addressed as a unique regulated service. The Bell System originated in 1877 and didn’t go under regulation until 1913. That was monopoly driven but the social media carriers are starting to enter that territory.

Of course you don’t have host a Klan meeting on private property but the social media providers are in effect letting them have a virtual offsite meeting. If a Bell Company can’t deny them the right to conference calling, then it’s a short walk to modern multimedia communications. If there are initiatives to make internet access a basic service, then to deny access to groups of people because the private entity doesn’t like them is a slippery slope. Texted hate speech or voice hate speech is still hate speech. The fact that it’s published and becomes content is really just an artifact of how people communicate In modern society.

I’d rather not see the Klan on the net but arbitrary suppression of their right to access to what is basically a public platform by a private entity and is running over common carrier infrastructure needs to be addresses and codified by law. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and currently we’re letting private companies define beauty. Let the government define basic safeguards and don’t make the providers make those decisions. Otherwise I see a longer term risk of mob rule and suppression of free thought.

I don’t agree with a lot of crap on social media but the right to freedom of expression is more important. Allow free flow and access to ideas and information and let the citizenry sort it out.
I think there is some confusion between the ISPs, for whom the telcos are a relevant comparison, and the content/product providers. To the best of my knowledge, no ISP has attempted to constrain Trump or anyone else's access to the internet. In fact, Trump until recently had his own blog, that anyone on the internet was free the access at any time. Thus, FB or twitter's decision to expel Trump from their privately funded and run platforms has not denied him access to anyone. Those companies, based on their Terms of Service and not "arbitrary suppression", have expelled Trump and denied him access to the large, concentrated user base that they, through their own ingenuity and investment, were able to amass over their years of operations. Even though I can't find Trump on Twitter, I was certainly able to (and did) read his blog updates.

I believe that this is their right as a business and i suspect the courts will agree with me.

As always, people are free to fund whatever court cases they chose to pursue. But as Sydney Powell and Lin Wood are finding out today in their sanction hearings in MI, even that pursuit may have consequences of not conducted appropriately.
 
Speaking of censorship on the basis of "misinformation", why is the Left planning on talking to SMS carriers about our private conversations?

Biden allied groups, including the Democratic National Committee, are also planning to engage fact-checkers more aggressively and work with SMS carriers to dispel misinformation about vaccines that is sent over social media and text messages.


There's a reason this is a class action lawsuit and it's not just a Trump issue. There has been coordination between Big Tech and certain political entities in the 2020 election as well as with Covid-19 response. Now they are being up front about it with this plan to involve themselves in our text messages about vaccines.
 
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I think there is some confusion between the ISPs, for whom the telcos are a relevant comparison, and the content/product providers. To the best of my knowledge, no ISP has attempted to constrain Trump or anyone else's access to the internet. In fact, Trump until recently had his own blog, that anyone on the internet was free the access at any time. Thus, FB or twitter's decision to expel Trump from their privately funded and run platforms has not denied him access to anyone. Those companies, based on their Terms of Service and not "arbitrary suppression", have expelled Trump and denied him access to the large, concentrated user base that they, through their own ingenuity and investment, were able to amass over their years of operations. Even though I can't find Trump on Twitter, I was certainly able to (and did) read his blog updates.

I believe that this is their right as a business and i suspect the courts will agree with me.

As always, people are free to fund whatever court cases they chose to pursue. But as Sydney Powell and Lin Wood are finding out today in their sanction hearings in MI, even that pursuit may have consequences of not conducted appropriately.
I'm clearly not getting my reasoning across here and that's my bad.

Just to be clear, I would be perfectly content to never see Donald tweet again. He's like a whack-a-mole. It's been gloriously quiet without him although I'm not a fan of the current government either.

I agree with you that current legal precedent would side with the social media platforms

What I don't believe is that current law addresses the fact that social media is becoming as common as a telephone call, the US Mail, or the roads people drive on to those that use it. I believe that the ubiquitous nature of the service being provided and the growing outdated nature of the traditional common carrier phone system bring it under specialized regulation with similar rights. When certain services reach critical mass in scale, they should be treated differently. These are the common carriers of the modern era regardless of ownership and Government has never been shy about stepping on the toes of private companies where it collides with public interest. Let the government codify a social media rights act or whatever grandiose name they can come up with and be done with this nonsense but don't let a handful of corporations decide free speech on the thin rationale of being a private entity. Private entities are only selective with who they do business with to the the extent it benefits their own best interest and their investors. You're letting the fox be in charge of the hen house.
 
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I'm clearly not getting my reasoning across here and that's my bad.

Just to be clear, I would be perfectly content to never see Donald tweet again. He's like a whack=a=mole. It's been gloriously quiet without him although I'm not a fan of the current government either.

I agree with you that current legal precedent would side with the social media platforms

What I don't believe is that current law addresses the fact that social media has as common as a telephone call, the US Mail, or the roads people drive on to those that use it. I believe that the ubiquitous nature of the service being provided and the growing outdated nature of the traditional common carrier phone system bring it under specialized regulation with similar rights. When certain services reach critical mass in scale, they should be treated differently. These are the common carriers of the modern era regardless of ownership and Government has never been shy about stepping on the toes of private companies where it collides with public interest. Let the government codify a social media rights act or whatever grandiose name they can come up with and be done with this nonsense but don't let a handful of corporations free speech on the thin rationale of being private entity. Private entities are only selective with who they do business with to the the extent it benefits their own best interest and their investors. You're letting the fox be in charge of the hen house.
This.

IMO, the social media companies messed up by introducing being arbiters of truth to the issue of moderating their services.

Terms of service agreements are everywhere and constantly enforced with nukes, suspensions, and bans. We see it all the time here. It's never strictly about misinformation though. Usually it's about more specific violations like inappropriate words and direct personal attacks against people beyond harmless banter. Even then there's typically warnings before extreme actions.

Conspiracy theories about referee motives, recruit motives, and coaching motives aren't subject to moderator action unless they extend to poor word choice or personal attacks as previously mentioned.

The grounds of stopping the flow of misinformation that Big Tech is using adds an element of subjectivity that simply referring to terms of service doesn't require and thus opens the door for them to be accused of selective enforcement and therefore censorship.
 
It does if they are working for the fascist dem party! They contributed millions to help the vote cheaters to take over our country!
unfortunately, thanks to the GOP, corporations are people. they can contribute pretty much whatever they want with impunity.
 
unfortunately, thanks to the GOP, corporations are people. they can contribute pretty much whatever they want with impunity.
I don’t know what you mean , thanks to the GOP. Yeah I guess these billionaires can buy whatever government they want. Especially when they can buy votes with the help of your gap toothed buddy!
 
are using the First Amendment as a defense to trample on the First Amendment rights of people whose opinions they don’t like. So 3 far left dudes in California who donated millions to dem candidates and used their companies to interfere with the 2020 election are now the arbiters of truth. Unbelievable yet that is where the marketplace of ideas stands today

Congress is totally useless and at least the lawsuit Trump announced today gives me hope.
Just shut up and love America! /s
 
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This.

IMO, the social media companies messed up by introducing being arbiters of truth to the issue of moderating their services.

Terms of service agreements are everywhere and constantly enforced with nukes, suspensions, and bans. We see it all the time here. It's never strictly about misinformation though. Usually it's about more specific violations like inappropriate words and direct personal attacks against people beyond harmless banter. Even then there's typically warnings before extreme actions.

Conspiracy theories about referee motives, recruit motives, and coaching motives aren't subject to moderator action unless they extend to poor word choice or personal attacks as previously mentioned.

The grounds of stopping the flow of misinformation that Big Tech is using adds an element of subjectivity that simply referring to terms of service doesn't require and thus opens the door for them to be accused of selective enforcement and therefore censorship.
Referee motives are not a conspiracy theory! Follow the $$$$.🙈
 
Why would someone like yourself care about Trump's blog updates?
Because he is the de facto head of one of our two political parties and millions of people still believe he won the election. As such, his influence is diminished but still significant.

I'm clearly not getting my reasoning across here and that's my bad.

Just to be clear, I would be perfectly content to never see Donald tweet again. He's like a whack-a-mole. It's been gloriously quiet without him although I'm not a fan of the current government either.

I agree with you that current legal precedent would side with the social media platforms

What I don't believe is that current law addresses the fact that social media is becoming as common as a telephone call, the US Mail, or the roads people drive on to those that use it. I believe that the ubiquitous nature of the service being provided and the growing outdated nature of the traditional common carrier phone system bring it under specialized regulation with similar rights. When certain services reach critical mass in scale, they should be treated differently. These are the common carriers of the modern era regardless of ownership and Government has never been shy about stepping on the toes of private companies where it collides with public interest. Let the government codify a social media rights act or whatever grandiose name they can come up with and be done with this nonsense but don't let a handful of corporations decide free speech on the thin rationale of being a private entity. Private entities are only selective with who they do business with to the the extent it benefits their own best interest and their investors. You're letting the fox be in charge of the hen house.
Thank you for the respectful exchange. That can be rare around these parts...

You have been clear in making your point, we just disagree. I think there are two considerations where our thoughts diverge.

1) Public versus private entities
I understand your thought processes, and agree that private entities can reach a size and scale that require some consideration of additional regulation. Utilities are the best example of this because they provide an essential service and barriers to entry are onerous. In my analysis, current social media platforms do not meet either of these requirements for additional regulation as they do not provide an essential service and barriers to entry as measured by requirement for capital and access to potential customers is actually relatively low. But regardless of this, the larger issue is item two.

2) Protected speech
Even where the 1st Amendment applies, not all speech is protected.

"Categories of speech that are given lesser or no protection by the First Amendment (and therefore may be restricted) include obscenity, fraud, child pornography, speech integral to illegal conduct, speech that incites imminent lawless action, speech that violates intellectual property law, true threats, and commercial speech such as advertising. Defamation that causes harm to reputation is a tort and also an exception to free speech."

While it is inexplicable to me how there is still a debate on this topic, I would hope that everyone can at least agree that a case can be made (whether you agree with that case or not) that DJT's statements on social media contributed to the environment that led to the violence of January 6th. Trump was free for years to make a multitude of statements via social media that were objectively lies and subjectively could be considered inflammatory and inciting lawless action. He was not banned until after the events of Jan. 6th.

There is no doubt that conservatives will be exploring this topic via the court system. Ironically, the current makeup of the SCOTUS seems unlikely to provide the outcomes desired by DJT and his supporters.

Cheers.
 
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This.

IMO, the social media companies messed up by introducing being arbiters of truth to the issue of moderating their services.

Terms of service agreements are everywhere and constantly enforced with nukes, suspensions, and bans. We see it all the time here. It's never strictly about misinformation though. Usually it's about more specific violations like inappropriate words and direct personal attacks against people beyond harmless banter. Even then there's typically warnings before extreme actions.

Conspiracy theories about referee motives, recruit motives, and coaching motives aren't subject to moderator action unless they extend to poor word choice or personal attacks as previously mentioned.

The grounds of stopping the flow of misinformation that Big Tech is using adds an element of subjectivity that simply referring to terms of service doesn't require and thus opens the door for them to be accused of selective enforcement and therefore censorship.

I'm not an attorney but the terms of service/use is where I think the abuses will focus. Imo, you can't expect protections due to not being an editor and then editing content based on one political view point when groups with another view point are demonstrably allowed to ignore those same terms of use. For example, if you suspend the NYP for a column about a lab leak but allow multiple outlets to run the mostly peaceful protest stories when talking about riots, I would think you are opening yourself up to liability.
 
I'm not an attorney but the terms of service/use is where I think the abuses will focus. Imo, you can't expect protections due to not being an editor and then editing content based on one political view point when groups with another view point are demonstrably allowed to ignore those same terms of use. For example, if you suspend the NYP for a column about a lab leak but allow multiple outlets to run the mostly peaceful protest stories when talking about riots, I would think you are opening yourself up to liability.


I am not an attorney either but you don't have to be one to understand what the left is trying to do. I think about what they are doing and it is obvious they will lead us into communism or socialism if they get their way. Their tactics are textbook marxist such as:

Eliminate our history,
divide us by race and/or class,
media censorship,
control the people thru govt mandates (Think Dem blue state govs),
brainwash children in schools,
Closing our economy to provoke unrest among the masses,
Election corruption,
and a private paramilitary to intimidate opponents.
 
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