State department report on Ukraine

[Bells76]

No mention of this on CNN, Fox, MSNBC, etc.

Pretty much what is expected, US finding of significant human rights issues involving Ukrainian government officials, enforced disappearance; torture and cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment; harsh and life-threatening prison conditions; arbitrary arrest or detention; serious problems with the independence of the judiciary; restrictions on freedom of expression, including for members of the media, including violence or threats of violence against journalists, unjustified arrests or prosecutions of journalists, and censorship; serious restrictions on internet freedom; substantial interference with the freedoms of peaceful assembly and association; restrictions on freedom of movement; serious government corruption; extensive gender-based violence; systematic restrictions on workers’ freedom of association; and the existence of the worst forms of child labor.

Of course biden’s dept had to spin it and blame it all on Russia and use the report as an editorial on Russia instead to its purpose, which was to monitor and audit UKR and its govt. LOL, who saw that coming. But nevertheless, a pretty damning document upon UKR behavior.

Who do you support when 2 devils are in conflict?

Technical Difficulties

www.state.gov

 

[ugaboz]

So sad
Dems really love Ukraine lol

 

[Bells76]

So sad
Dems really love Ukraine lol

And a surprising number of repubs too

 

[OriginalGatorHator]

And a surprising number of repubs too

 

[Athens is Heaven]

And a surprising number of repubs too

Looks like all the power hungry Republicans love them. They are all getting a kick back from Ukraine.

 

[TivoliDawg]

No mention of this on CNN, Fox, MSNBC, etc.

Pretty much what is expected, US finding of significant human rights issues involving Ukrainian government officials, enforced disappearance; torture and cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment; harsh and life-threatening prison conditions; arbitrary arrest or detention; serious problems with the independence of the judiciary; restrictions on freedom of expression, including for members of the media, including violence or threats of violence against journalists, unjustified arrests or prosecutions of journalists, and censorship; serious restrictions on internet freedom; substantial interference with the freedoms of peaceful assembly and association; restrictions on freedom of movement; serious government corruption; extensive gender-based violence; systematic restrictions on workers’ freedom of association; and the existence of the worst forms of child labor.

Of course biden’s dept had to spin it and blame it all on Russia and use the report as an editorial on Russia instead to its purpose, which was to monitor and audit UKR and its govt. LOL, who saw that coming. But nevertheless, a pretty damning document upon UKR behavior.

Who do you support when 2 devils are in conflict?

Technical Difficulties

www.state.gov

This whole thread is so weird.

 

[Whosyodawgy]

No mention of this on CNN, Fox, MSNBC, etc.

Pretty much what is expected, US finding of significant human rights issues involving Ukrainian government officials, enforced disappearance; torture and cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment; harsh and life-threatening prison conditions; arbitrary arrest or detention; serious problems with the independence of the judiciary; restrictions on freedom of expression, including for members of the media, including violence or threats of violence against journalists, unjustified arrests or prosecutions of journalists, and censorship; serious restrictions on internet freedom; substantial interference with the freedoms of peaceful assembly and association; restrictions on freedom of movement; serious government corruption; extensive gender-based violence; systematic restrictions on workers’ freedom of association; and the existence of the worst forms of child labor.

Of course biden’s dept had to spin it and blame it all on Russia and use the report as an editorial on Russia instead to its purpose, which was to monitor and audit UKR and its govt. LOL, who saw that coming. But nevertheless, a pretty damning document upon UKR behavior.

Who do you support when 2 devils are in conflict?

Technical Difficulties

www.state.gov

There is a very simple and practical reason for supporting the Ukraine. You might give it some thought.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Wearing Russia down is a good thing, no matter how it ultimately turns out.
I'm not excusing the Biden administration, they are devastating to this country. But this war and the border failure are lumped together for partisan, political reasons. They are not the same. Ukraine is a net positive in terms of money versus weakening Russia, possibly destabilizing them and collecting massive intelligence on so many fronts I can't begin to name them all.

 

[Bells76]

There is a very simple and practical reason for supporting the Ukraine. You might give it some thought.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Wearing Russia down is a good thing, no matter how it ultimately turns out.
I'm not excusing the Biden administration, they are devastating to this country. But this war and the border failure are lumped together for partisan, political reasons. They are not the same. Ukraine is a net positive in terms of money versus weakening Russia, possibly destabilizing them and collecting massive intelligence on so many fronts I can't begin to name them all.

To your points. Who is our enemy? The Russian people or its government? There is no difference in the two govt’s. Both are commies and run tyrannical policies.

UKR has no path to victory. None. If you see how they win this, please detail their steps. Our sanctions have backfired and the Russian people overwhelmingly support Putin, even by western polls. Russia has upgraded their industrial structure to the point where they are outproducing all of NATO combined in military equipment by all metrics. They can end this anytime they please. UKR is already short on men and have conscripted about the whole supply. The military trainers we sent over have been reporting there is nobody to train, and yet we draw closer to WW3. Russia is obtaining free wartime experience and creating military vets who are honing their craft against western equipment and tactics.

How is it a net positive if we rack up even more debt? Every taxpayer is on the hook for every dime spent there. We’ve already lost credibility in the world’s court of opinion. When you seize currency from a sovereign country, others no longer trust you with theirs, which we see playing out. How in the F is that a net positive. Now we see Russia threatening to flood England with radioactive waves and destroying France in an instant as they put it which means one thing. Nukes.

Before this regional conflict, Russia offered UKR a ton of money and almost free oil, and in return they asked them to keep nato out. Almost had peace until the English PM stepped in and screwed it up. Russia can outlast, outproduce, outmaneuver, out-tech UKR and it’s not even close. So we just get to sit back and watch all these people die while Russia creeps towards a smothering victory.

Finally, if you and all these others are so for UKR, what the F are you doing here? Shouldn’t you have your hands around an AK firing off 7.62x39 rounds at Russians while laying in Ukrainian mud? I guess you’re satisfied at lecturing us and waving your mini UKR flag instead.

 

[ugadoc]

No mention of this on CNN, Fox, MSNBC, etc.

Pretty much what is expected, US finding of significant human rights issues involving Ukrainian government officials, enforced disappearance; torture and cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment; harsh and life-threatening prison conditions; arbitrary arrest or detention; serious problems with the independence of the judiciary; restrictions on freedom of expression, including for members of the media, including violence or threats of violence against journalists, unjustified arrests or prosecutions of journalists, and censorship; serious restrictions on internet freedom; substantial interference with the freedoms of peaceful assembly and association; restrictions on freedom of movement; serious government corruption; extensive gender-based violence; systematic restrictions on workers’ freedom of association; and the existence of the worst forms of child labor.

Of course biden’s dept had to spin it and blame it all on Russia and use the report as an editorial on Russia instead to its purpose, which was to monitor and audit UKR and its govt. LOL, who saw that coming. But nevertheless, a pretty damning document upon UKR behavior.

Who do you support when 2 devils are in conflict?

Technical Difficulties

www.state.gov

Let Europe deal with them

 

[Pine_Tree1]

One of the most corrupt sleazebag countries on earth invades perhaps any even more corrupt albeit smaller nation. Is anyone surprised if this is true?

 

[Whosyodawgy]

To your points. Who is our enemy? The Russian people or its government? There is no difference in the two govt’s. Both are commies and run tyrannical policies.

UKR has no path to victory. None. If you see how they win this, please detail their steps. Our sanctions have backfired and the Russian people overwhelmingly support Putin, even by western polls. Russia has upgraded their industrial structure to the point where they are outproducing all of NATO combined in military equipment by all metrics. They can end this anytime they please. UKR is already short on men and have conscripted about the whole supply. The military trainers we sent over have been reporting there is nobody to train, and yet we draw closer to WW3. Russia is obtaining free wartime experience and creating military vets who are honing their craft against western equipment and tactics.

How is it a net positive if we rack up even more debt? Every taxpayer is on the hook for every dime spent there. We’ve already lost credibility in the world’s court of opinion. When you seize currency from a sovereign country, others no longer trust you with theirs, which we see playing out. How in the F is that a net positive. Now we see Russia threatening to flood England with radioactive waves and destroying France in an instant as they put it which means one thing. Nukes.

Before this regional conflict, Russia offered UKR a ton of money and almost free oil, and in return they asked them to keep nato out. Almost had peace until the English PM stepped in and screwed it up. Russia can outlast, outproduce, outmaneuver, out-tech UKR and it’s not even close. So we just get to sit back and watch all these people die while Russia creeps towards a smothering victory.

Finally, if you and all these others are so for UKR, what the F are you doing here? Shouldn’t you have your hands around an AK firing off 7.62x39 rounds at Russians while laying in Ukrainian mud? I guess you’re satisfied at lecturing us and waving your mini UKR flag instead.

I enjoyed your impassioned post. You make several points which I'll try to address.
I assume you mean complete defeat of the Russians when you say victory. I agree that UKR has little or no path to "victory" under that unrealistic definition.
Our sanctions were nothing but a PR stunt by a criminal in the white house. The idea that they would do any more than piss off Putin is ridiculous and merely propaganda for the democRAT party mouthpiece media to broadcast for their ignorant barn animals who never research anything and lap up whatever slop is poured into the trough.
That Russia is outproducing all of NATO combined might be true at this very moment. But it is not nearly as concerning as you try to make it sound. That's because of two good reasons.
1) What they are producing is still far, far behind what NATO can/could put in the field if necessary. The larger numbers don't offset the difference in capability.
2) The ability of NATO to respond quickly is a matter of economic reality. Some claim Russia to be as large as the 5th largest economy but a more accurate estimation is about 8th. Russia has a smaller economy that Germany, France, UK, Japan and the US (which, on its own has three states with larger economies that Russia).

Your claim that Russia, "can end this anytime they please" is simply not correct short of using nukes and that would start a whole lot more than it ends. Do you think Putin likes losing nearly 120,000 men? If Russia could have ended it quickly, they would have. That was their initial intent and it was a miserable failure.

I'm not sure of the manpower crunch UKR is under. Don't believe everything you read. What I can tell you is UKR has a population of 44M and they have lost ±31k. You do the math.

Yes, Russia is gaining some field experience among those military men who still survive. And that experience is coming almost exclusively against our 2nd and 3rd tier equipment; equipment which is being phased out by the US and our NATO partners or is a less capable version of our equipment.

I explained the net positive before. You simply don't like it or disagree. That is your perogative. Every taxpayer is on the hook for every single action of the federal megamonster.
The portion of that paragraph, following your comments about my "net positive" statement, trails off into absurdity which leaves me shaking my head. Other than to say the "court of world opinion" worries me less than a hole in my sock, I can't make rational rebuttal to the irrational.

Maybe UKR should have taken Russia's offer to begin with. I don't know the inside of that and for damn sure you don't. But for all the, "not quite on the mark" of your reasons why UKR has no shot, I agree that Russia is likely to eventually "win" (definition tbd). And I don't give a shit. UKR is a hell hole which globalist pigs used as a money laundering center. Now, on the way out, we are using it to gain far more advantage and information than Russia is gaining by blowing up a few old MI Abrams tanks.

I don't mind your semi-personal insults. I hope the great deleter in the sky won't interfere with this thread. Because, I'm going to try to explain something to you, very simply, about warfare which you cannot bring into focus through an ideological lens.

This battlefield is not the war. It is the tip of the spear. The war is about knowing what the hand that throws that spear is doing and how he does it. That is the cash you can quietly take to the bank and put in a savings account for later. Only if push came to shove would that cash be spent. But it sure is nice to know you have money for a blade to cut off a couple of fingers and disable that hand.

 

[Section220Dawg]

There is a very simple and practical reason for supporting the Ukraine. You might give it some thought.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Wearing Russia down is a good thing, no matter how it ultimately turns out.
I'm not excusing the Biden administration, they are devastating to this country. But this war and the border failure are lumped together for partisan, political reasons. They are not the same. Ukraine is a net positive in terms of money versus weakening Russia, possibly destabilizing them and collecting massive intelligence on so many fronts I can't begin to name them all.

Weakening Russia? I’d suggest spending billions we don’t have on an unwinnable war weakens the United States. If you haven’t noticed we have a deficit of 35 trillion and aren’t in a position to fund anyone else’s war. Especially one that’s not in our own security interests. But someone, somewhere is getting rich off of this “blood money” which is always the case.

 

[Section220Dawg]

I enjoyed your impassioned post. You make several points which I'll try to address.
I assume you mean complete defeat of the Russians when you say victory. I agree that UKR has little or no path to "victory" under that unrealistic definition.
Our sanctions were nothing but a PR stunt by a criminal in the white house. The idea that they would do any more than piss off Putin is ridiculous and merely propaganda for the democRAT party mouthpiece media to broadcast for their ignorant barn animals who never research anything and lap up whatever slop is poured into the trough.
That Russia is outproducing all of NATO combined might be true at this very moment. But it is not nearly as concerning as you try to make it sound. That's because of two good reasons.
1) What they are producing is still far, far behind what NATO can/could put in the field if necessary. The larger numbers don't offset the difference in capability.
2) The ability of NATO to respond quickly is a matter of economic reality. Some claim Russia to be as large as the 5th largest economy but a more accurate estimation is about 8th. Russia has a smaller economy that Germany, France, UK, Japan and the US (which, on its own has three states with larger economies that Russia).

Your claim that Russia, "can end this anytime they please" is simply not correct short of using nukes and that would start a whole lot more than it ends. Do you think Putin likes losing nearly 120,000 men? If Russia could have ended it quickly, they would have. That was their initial intent and it was a miserable failure.

I'm not sure of the manpower crunch UKR is under. Don't believe everything you read. What I can tell you is UKR has a population of 44M and they have lost ±31k. You do the math.

Yes, Russia is gaining some field experience among those military men who still survive. And that experience is coming almost exclusively against our 2nd and 3rd tier equipment; equipment which is being phased out by the US and our NATO partners or is a less capable version of our equipment.

I explained the net positive before. You simply don't like it or disagree. That is your perogative. Every taxpayer is on the hook for every single action of the federal megamonster.
The portion of that paragraph, following your comments about my "net positive" statement, trails off into absurdity which leaves me shaking my head. Other than to say the "court of world opinion" worries me less than a hole in my sock, I can't make rational rebuttal to the irrational.

Maybe UKR should have taken Russia's offer to begin with. I don't know the inside of that and for damn sure you don't. But for all the, "not quite on the mark" of your reasons why UKR has no shot, I agree that Russia is likely to eventually "win" (definition tbd). And I don't give a shit. UKR is a hell hole which globalist pigs used as a money laundering center. Now, on the way out, we are using it to gain far more advantage and information than Russia is gaining by blowing up a few old MI Abrams tanks.

I don't mind your semi-personal insults. I hope the great deleter in the sky won't interfere with this thread. Because, I'm going to try to explain something to you, very simply, about warfare which you cannot bring into focus through an ideological lens.

This battlefield is not the war. It is the tip of the spear. The war is about knowing what the hand that throws that spear is doing and how he does it. That is the cash you can quietly take to the bank and put in a savings account for later. Only if push came to shove would that cash be spent. But it sure is nice to know you have money for a blade to cut off a couple of fingers and disable that hand.

You said a lot. But nothing that would suggest we should continue sending billions to Ukraine. Not withstanding the thousands who are dying needlessly on both sides. This isn’t a damn “video game”. The “hand that throws the spear”.. WTF would knowing that matter. Besides our own military has become another political “social experiment” and it’s a good thing we don’t have to fight an actual war ourselves. It wouldn’t work out very well and this is coming from someone who previously spent 8 years in the Army.

 

[Athens is Heaven]

You said a lot. But nothing that would suggest we should continue sending billions to Ukraine. Not withstanding the thousands who are dying needlessly on both sides. This isn’t a damn “video game”. The “hand that throws the spear”.. WTF would knowing that matter. Besides our own military has become another political “social experiment” and it’s a good thing we don’t have to fight an actual war ourselves. It wouldn’t work out very well and this is coming from someone who previously spent 8 years in the Army.

Our Army will scare the hell out of our enemies dressed in their tutus and spiked heels!

 

[Bells76]

I enjoyed your impassioned post. You make several points which I'll try to address.
I assume you mean complete defeat of the Russians when you say victory. I agree that UKR has little or no path to "victory" under that unrealistic definition.
Our sanctions were nothing but a PR stunt by a criminal in the white house. The idea that they would do any more than piss off Putin is ridiculous and merely propaganda for the democRAT party mouthpiece media to broadcast for their ignorant barn animals who never research anything and lap up whatever slop is poured into the trough.
That Russia is outproducing all of NATO combined might be true at this very moment. But it is not nearly as concerning as you try to make it sound. That's because of two good reasons.
1) What they are producing is still far, far behind what NATO can/could put in the field if necessary. The larger numbers don't offset the difference in capability.
2) The ability of NATO to respond quickly is a matter of economic reality. Some claim Russia to be as large as the 5th largest economy but a more accurate estimation is about 8th. Russia has a smaller economy that Germany, France, UK, Japan and the US (which, on its own has three states with larger economies that Russia).

Your claim that Russia, "can end this anytime they please" is simply not correct short of using nukes and that would start a whole lot more than it ends. Do you think Putin likes losing nearly 120,000 men? If Russia could have ended it quickly, they would have. That was their initial intent and it was a miserable failure.

I'm not sure of the manpower crunch UKR is under. Don't believe everything you read. What I can tell you is UKR has a population of 44M and they have lost ±31k. You do the math.

Yes, Russia is gaining some field experience among those military men who still survive. And that experience is coming almost exclusively against our 2nd and 3rd tier equipment; equipment which is being phased out by the US and our NATO partners or is a less capable version of our equipment.

I explained the net positive before. You simply don't like it or disagree. That is your perogative. Every taxpayer is on the hook for every single action of the federal megamonster.
The portion of that paragraph, following your comments about my "net positive" statement, trails off into absurdity which leaves me shaking my head. Other than to say the "court of world opinion" worries me less than a hole in my sock, I can't make rational rebuttal to the irrational.

Maybe UKR should have taken Russia's offer to begin with. I don't know the inside of that and for damn sure you don't. But for all the, "not quite on the mark" of your reasons why UKR has no shot, I agree that Russia is likely to eventually "win" (definition tbd). And I don't give a shit. UKR is a hell hole which globalist pigs used as a money laundering center. Now, on the way out, we are using it to gain far more advantage and information than Russia is gaining by blowing up a few old MI Abrams tanks.

I don't mind your semi-personal insults. I hope the great deleter in the sky won't interfere with this thread. Because, I'm going to try to explain something to you, very simply, about warfare which you cannot bring into focus through an ideological lens.

This battlefield is not the war. It is the tip of the spear. The war is about knowing what the hand that throws that spear is doing and how he does it. That is the cash you can quietly take to the bank and put in a savings account for later. Only if push came to shove would that cash be spent. But it sure is nice to know you have money for a blade to cut off a couple of fingers and disable that hand.

I don’t have time to respond in depth, (surgery tomorrow which I dread) except to say you are full of shit. Sound like a government man. That’s fine we can both claim each other are as we do agree on some things.

I do know and history has shown us when things go to hell, they take us to war. Things in this country are going to hell, maybe by design, I don’t think anybody in govt is so stupid not to see the eventual outcome of what their actions have been.

I will say this. I don’t know how you and others can just flippantly throw off the opinion of other countries on our actions. All of our economies are related. All of our economies are linked. Our dollar is going to hell and other countries are dumping it by the day. It’s a big deal and much more concerning than what is happening in UKR. Joe took 3 bil, 30 bil hell I can’t remember from Russia. Money that another sovereign placed on our system in good faith. Why would any other country invest a dime here if we just take it. Our leaders have weaponized our dollar for too long and take advantage too much. There will be major consequences showing up this year, maybe next OR hundreds of years of macro will have proven to be false.

And real people are dying over there as in any war. We are helping to support that and for what? So that we can gain “valuable” info on Russia? That’s being on the wrong side of an argument IYAM. Not to mention, all of the abuses found by our own state department in UKR government.

Why is it okay to just overlook all of the abuses created by the UKR govt? It okay to help fund a corrupt govt, abusive of freedom, children, govt opposers and press? Not by my book. If you can turn a blind eye to such human abuses as detailed in the report I posted, you must be a government man. No personal insult Intended, I side with humanity and I see no reason for war here, nor our financing of it. This is going to end the same old shit way all of our wars have ended since WW2 and we will all be paying taxes through to nose to cover it.

 

[Whosyodawgy]

You said a lot. But nothing that would suggest we should continue sending billions to Ukraine. Not withstanding the thousands who are dying needlessly on both sides. This isn’t a damn “video game”. The “hand that throws the spear”.. WTF would knowing that matter. Besides our own military has become another political “social experiment” and it’s a good thing we don’t have to fight an actual war ourselves. It wouldn’t work out very well and this is coming from someone who previously spent 8 years in the Army.

Just being honest, I really don't care how many Russians and Ukrainians die in that situation. They deserve each other.
I care about this country and only this country. I think what differs is our opinion on how to safeguard it. My opinion is formed by my life experience and work. You know what forms your better than I.

But, what's so tough to understand about the hand and spear? Are you serious that you can't understand the critical importance of being able to observe our enemy in realtime combat operations; all the while not risking a single American soldier. As I said, I don't give a rat's ass how many Ukrainians are dead. This proxy war helps the US military. That's what I care about. I have dawgs in that fight.

We can learn how your enemy reacts, what tactics he uses, what tendencies he has and what mistakes he might be led into because of those tendencies, how he disperses his troops, how his equipment compares to ours and when we might deliver a decisive blow because of what we know about his equipment.

But most importantly, we can gather golden nuggets about his supply chain (the hand). Battles are won and lost on front lines. Wars are won and lost on supply lines. Amateurs talk strategy. Professionals talk logistics.
Had Putin known this war would go the way it has, he would never have started it. He expected to overwhelm Ukraine quickly and look good doing it. Instead, it has provided us with an awesome opportunity to evaluate Russia's real capabilities. We and NATO are in far better position to deal with Russia in a conventional confrontation than we were two years ago. That's what I care about.

 

[Whosyodawgy]

I don’t have time to respond in depth, (surgery tomorrow which I dread) except to say you are full of shit. Sound like a government man. That’s fine we can both claim each other are as we do agree on some things.

I do know and history has shown us when things go to hell, they take us to war. Things in this country are going to hell, maybe by design, I don’t think anybody in govt is so stupid not to see the eventual outcome of what their actions have been.

I will say this. I don’t know how you and others can just flippantly throw off the opinion of other countries on our actions. All of our economies are related. All of our economies are linked. Our dollar is going to hell and other countries are dumping it by the day. It’s a big deal and much more concerning than what is happening in UKR. Joe took 3 bil, 30 bil hell I can’t remember from Russia. Money that another sovereign placed on our system in good faith. Why would any other country invest a dime here if we just take it. Our leaders have weaponized our dollar for too long and take advantage too much. There will be major consequences showing up this year, maybe next OR hundreds of years of macro will have proven to be false.

And real people are dying over there as in any war. We are helping to support that and for what? So that we can gain “valuable” info on Russia? That’s being on the wrong side of an argument IYAM. Not to mention, all of the abuses found by our own state department in UKR government.

Why is it okay to just overlook all of the abuses created by the UKR govt? It okay to help fund a corrupt govt, abusive of freedom, children, govt opposers and press? Not by my book. If you can turn a blind eye to such human abuses as detailed in the report I posted, you must be a government man. No personal insult Intended, I side with humanity and I see no reason for war here, nor our financing of it. This is going to end the same old shit way all of our wars have ended since WW2 and we will all be paying taxes through to nose to cover it.

It's a tough world. I don't really care what side of the argument you think I'm on. The security of this country has been my family's work for 3 generations. It continues to be. Russia and Ukraine can kill each other off completely as far as I'm concerned.
My son called me from Crete today. The USS Eisenhower is there on a port call (first one in many months). He said he's eating at five star restaurants for what it would cost to eat at McDonalds here. Apparently that dollar you are fretting about is holding up pretty good.
Hope your surgery goes well. No wonder you're so grouchy.

 

[kckd]

No mention of this on CNN, Fox, MSNBC, etc.

Pretty much what is expected, US finding of significant human rights issues involving Ukrainian government officials, enforced disappearance; torture and cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment; harsh and life-threatening prison conditions; arbitrary arrest or detention; serious problems with the independence of the judiciary; restrictions on freedom of expression, including for members of the media, including violence or threats of violence against journalists, unjustified arrests or prosecutions of journalists, and censorship; serious restrictions on internet freedom; substantial interference with the freedoms of peaceful assembly and association; restrictions on freedom of movement; serious government corruption; extensive gender-based violence; systematic restrictions on workers’ freedom of association; and the existence of the worst forms of child labor.

Of course biden’s dept had to spin it and blame it all on Russia and use the report as an editorial on Russia instead to its purpose, which was to monitor and audit UKR and its govt. LOL, who saw that coming. But nevertheless, a pretty damning document upon UKR behavior.

Who do you support when 2 devils are in conflict?

Technical Difficulties

www.state.gov

Good thing FDR and Churchill didn't take that approach.

 

[kckd]

There is a very simple and practical reason for supporting the Ukraine. You might give it some thought.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Wearing Russia down is a good thing, no matter how it ultimately turns out.
I'm not excusing the Biden administration, they are devastating to this country. But this war and the border failure are lumped together for partisan, political reasons. They are not the same. Ukraine is a net positive in terms of money versus weakening Russia, possibly destabilizing them and collecting massive intelligence on so many fronts I can't begin to name them all.

Dear Leader does not see Dear Putin as bad man. Dear Leader's followers follow Dear Leader.

 

[Bells76]

Good thing FDR and Churchill didn't take that approach.

Good thing they didn’t take Biden’s approach on mentally ill transgenders, child sex changers, nukes, China, illegal invaders flooding the country, weaponizing govt agencies against opponents, appointing officials based on color and sex.

Still can’t comment on your idol’s own agency finding so many abuses and irregularities in UKR huh? Leave to a hardcore dem for such a stupid and irrelevant comparison

 

[Bells76]

It's a tough world. I don't really care what side of the argument you think I'm on. The security of this country has been my family's work for 3 generations. It continues to be. Russia and Ukraine can kill each other off completely as far as I'm concerned.
My son called me from Crete today. The USS Eisenhower is there on a port call (first one in many months). He said he's eating at five star restaurants for what it would cost to eat at McDonalds here. Apparently that dollar you are fretting about is holding up pretty good.
Hope your surgery goes well. No wonder you're so grouchy.

I refuse to measure dicks with you on sources/professions but I can say I stand in a confident position. Still can’t comment on the document huh? I wouldn’t either if I were such a war monger. Just like I said, government man.

 

[Bells76]

Weakening Russia? I’d suggest spending billions we don’t have on an unwinnable war weakens the United States. If you haven’t noticed we have a deficit of 35 trillion and aren’t in a position to fund anyone else’s war. Especially one that’s not in our own security interests. But someone, somewhere is getting rich off of this “blood money” which is always the case.

The weakening Russia bit is a fairy tale used to keep up the brain washing. When this first started we heard non-stop how bad Russia military was and UKR would have them on their heels in a matter of weeks. Govt men love to spend that money and enrich special interest groups like the military and rebuilding contractors. All getting their cut along the way. They are political chameleons. Unprincipled, arrogant, two tongued knaves with no concern for anything but their own house’s position and willing to risk everyone else’s life and money to better their own.

 

[Whosyodawgy]

I refuse to measure dicks with you on sources/professions but I can say I stand in a confident position. Still can’t comment on the document huh? I wouldn’t either if I were such a war monger. Just like I said, government man.

Facts are not usually effective when presented to a person who is drawing a sense of moral superiority from their ignorance.

If not giving a shit that Ukraine and Russia are killing each other makes me a war monger ... count me in.

I care about this country. We have lost 4 brave souls during all this ME and Ukraine bullshit and that's too many for this war monger.

Maybe I missed something. What document are you referring to?

Damn! You're a grouchy old fart.

 

[nice marmot]

My son called me from Crete today. The USS Eisenhower is there on a port call (first one in many months). He said he's eating at five star restaurants for what it would cost to eat at McDonalds here. Apparently that dollar you are fretting about is holding up pretty good.

USD vs. GBP and EURO are about what they were and have been, and you can eat better cheaper in Paris than in Savannah, GA, love it though we do.

We don't agree on much, but I thank you for your family's sense of mission and purpose.

 

[mikul1]

The weakening Russia bit is a fairy tale used to keep up the brain washing. When this first started we heard non-stop how bad Russia military was and UKR would have them on their heels in a matter of weeks. Govt men love to spend that money and enrich special interest groups like the military and rebuilding contractors. All getting their cut along the way. They are political chameleons. Unprincipled, arrogant, two tongued knaves with no concern for anything but their own house’s position and willing to risk everyone else’s life and money to better their own.

You mean democrats

 

[Bells76]

You mean democrats

You’re right , All Democrats and seemingly more and more repubs as time goes on and this uniparty is exposed

 

[Dawgfan1966]

This whole thread is so weird.

Once you realize, most of the chaos is caused by our government for their own gain( politicians on both sides) it becomes clear. We are just here to pay the fees, so they may live in luxury and wield their power.

 

[nice marmot]

Once you realize, most of the chaos is caused by our government for their own gain( politicians on both sides) it becomes clear. We are just here to pay the fees, so they may live in luxury and wield their power.

Tell your congressperson you want campaign financing. Or find someone to vote for who does.

 

[Dawgfan1966]

We need transparency in all government dealings with our money, ( excepting obvious classified situations) so we can hold ALL politicians accountable. The system is set up for the politicians to keep us all downtrodden and under their thumbs as good little servants. They tell us what food, light bulbs, cars, toilets, etc. to buy) and most people do not even question the state of affairs we are in now. We are heading to the point of living in the Matrix.

Tell your congressperson you want campaign financing. Or find someone to vote for who does.

 

[Bells76]

Once you realize, most of the chaos is caused by our government for their own gain( politicians on both sides) it becomes clear. We are just here to pay the fees, so they may live in luxury and wield their power.

Nothing weird about posting a govt document, which is what I did. The fact that nobody discussed the document itself and posted their opinions may be weird but the govt’s own document found tyranny, abuse, waste of our money in UKR appears to be fine to many. That’s what is weird to me

 

[Bells76]

Facts are not usually effective when presented to a person who is drawing a sense of moral superiority from their ignorance.

If not giving a shit that Ukraine and Russia are killing each other makes me a war monger ... count me in.

I care about this country. We have lost 4 brave souls during all this ME and Ukraine bullshit and that's too many for this war monger.

Maybe I missed something. What document are you referring to?

Damn! You're a grouchy old fart.

So you didn’t even read the first post? There’s a link in there.

Call me what you will but I’ve heard you brag more than anything. About your profession, family history, and even where your kid eats. I’m home now and bored so I’ll answer. I’m a nobody but I worked in areas you’d get arrested for showing up at. Retired at 45, went back to help until 53, hold patents, have no direct info about tactics, movements, strategies, etc but know enough to be scared for us all if shit goes sideways. My GGGGGG Grandfather fought the entire duration of the revolutionary war, getting shot in Germantown and reentering the war around Valley Forge. Every generation has served except me. You’re right I am grouchy because I could not serve due to type 1 diabetes at an early age. My son doesn’t eat exotic steaks in foreign lands but my Granddaughter and I ate a Chick fil a yesterday where she got a kids meal that seemed pricy. I’m 55 and showing wear and tear so if that makes me old, okay, but I’m still here to tell the tale

 

[Whosyodawgy]

So you didn’t even read the first post? There’s a link in there.

Call me what you will but I’ve heard you brag more than anything. About your profession, family history, and even where your kid eats. I’m home now and bored so I’ll answer. I’m a nobody but I worked in areas you’d get arrested for showing up at. Retired at 45, went back to help until 53, hold patents, have no direct info about tactics, movements, strategies, etc but know enough to be scared for us all if shit goes sideways. My GGGGGG Grandfather fought the entire duration of the revolutionary war, getting shot in Germantown and reentering the war around Valley Forge. Every generation has served except me. You’re right I am grouchy because I could not serve due to type 1 diabetes at an early age. My son doesn’t eat exotic steaks in foreign lands but my Granddaughter and I ate a Chick fil a yesterday where she got a kids meal that seemed pricy. I’m 55 and showing wear and tear so if that makes me old, okay, but I’m still here to tell the tale

OK. I looked at the document about Ukrainian human rights record and of course it's bad but that is no secret to anyone.
It also has absolutely nothing to do with why we should or should not support Ukraine against the Russians.
As I understand it, you don't think we should help one bad bunch fight another bad bunch.
But that is not even the point. You are viewing it as a moral decision.
There is no good or bad in foreign relations, only national interest.
National security is not a moral choice. The world we live in does not respond in those terms.
It is in our national interest to use this war to our advantage in the ways I have already stated previously and that is why we are doing it.
Being a habitual malcontent does not make you a patriot.
If you knew as much as you think you know, you'd know enough to shut up till you know enough to talk.

 

[Bells76]

OK. I looked at the document about Ukrainian human rights record and of course it's bad but that is no secret to anyone.
It also has absolutely nothing to do with why we should or should not support Ukraine against the Russians.
As I understand it, you don't think we should help one bad bunch fight another bad bunch.
But that is not even the point. You are viewing it as a moral decision.
There is no good or bad in foreign relations, only national interest.
National security is not a moral choice. The world we live in does not respond in those terms.
It is in our national interest to use this war to our advantage in the ways I have already stated previously and that is why we are doing it.
Being a habitual malcontent does not make you a patriot.
If you knew as much as you think you know, you'd know enough to shut up till you know enough to talk.

Keep talking. UKR will lose, and we will too unless this stops.

Interesting that you just come out and admit your lack of principles. I live my life by sets of principles but it’s a personal decision we all make. I worked in govt for years and met so many with zero principles and loads of arrogance/innsolence.

Arrogance and lack of principles has been a hallmark of Biden and the wars he started, and retreated from.

We are gaining nothing from this war. Russia or China, and others could sink every ship we have in the area. Just too many missiles for us to intercept. This conflict is over for all practical purposes and we get valuable intel watching Russians drive their tanks around.

 

[Whosyodawgy]

Keep talking. UKR will lose, and we will too unless this stops.

Interesting that you just come out and admit your lack of principles. I live my life by sets of principles but it’s a personal decision we all make. I worked in govt for years and met so many with zero principles and loads of arrogance/innsolence.

Arrogance and lack of principles has been a hallmark of Biden and the wars he started, and retreated from.

We are gaining nothing from this war. Russia or China, and others could sink every ship we have in the area. Just too many missiles for us to intercept. This conflict is over for all practical purposes and we get valuable intel watching Russians drive their tanks around.

It seems like you are so invested in being "right" that you just can't consider any information that might challenge that primary directive, regardless of whether it's true or not.
According to you, national security falls under the auspices of your personal code of conduct. Your fantasy does not match reality. You don't know wtf your talking about. But obviously that hasn't stopped you so far.

 

[Bells76]

It seems like you are so invested in being "right" that you just can't consider any information that might challenge that primary directive, regardless of whether it's true or not.
According to you, national security falls under the auspices of your personal code of conduct. Your fantasy does not match reality. You don't know wtf your talking about. But obviously that hasn't stopped you so far.

You haven’t really given any information, or facts. It’s not about being right, as always, it’s about math, at least to me. I’m afraid you are forgetting the big picture. I used to be that way too. I’m a physicist. matter, energy, force, usually focuses the lens of which I see the world through. Here though, I look at numbers and their Impact on our country’s future and it doesn’t look good. The UKR situation only makes it worse.

While there is some truth in what you say, it doesn’t set forth or Prioritize our risks. We may gain some info on Russia. I am Not sure how much or how useful it will be given that it is being fought close up in UKR. The US will Never fight an up close war with Russia. There is a lot of space between us and it’s much more
Likely that we fight with long range and non traditional weapons. Even financial weapons which we are already seeing. Either way, I dont think the type of info we are getting from UKR would be that useful, to justify the cost.

On to the point. Math. By all indications, the US is entering a debt spiral because we have close to 35 trillion dollars of publicly acknowledged debt. The deficit is increasing by 1 trillion every hundred days. Biden has put out a budget of > 7 trillion in and of itself, for 2025. All in the absence of a direct war and pandemic. Discretionary spending is only about 2 Tr, 5 Tr is fixed cost. This is the biggest problem we face. With that much debt, central banks of the world are starting to really question if the US can maintain the global reserve currency.

When this UKR ordeal started, and Biden kicked Russia out of swift, they de-dollarized in a logarithmic fashion. A lot of countries went with Russia and now the GDP of the BRICS countries exceeds that of the G7 countries. We are in jeopardy of losing dollar reserve status, and these Proxy wars with Russia are contributing heavily to that direction. Interest cost in 2024, for the first time will exceed all of our dept Of defense military spending. Interest is now our country’s second highest expense behind social security. It is unsustainable and creates a debt spiral. Divide debt by GDP and you get an unmanageable ratio of about 127%

The CBO issued a study that said in order to stay afloat, the lowest tax bracket must be increased from 10% to 25%. The middle
Class will have to go from 25% to 63% and the highest tax bracket must be moved From 35% to 88 %. Let those numbers sink in.

The media and government dont like to talk about this. They don’t want to advertise the fact that the US is on the cusp of demise of the reserve status. The government will soon have the largest tax need in our history by a factor of about 10 and people are not considering the stress it will Place on their income and retirement plans like 401k. I get it. It’s much more fun to concentrate on hurting Russians than making sure we meet our domestic obligations like social security, which is our biggest debt threat as only about 50% of baby boomers have already retired. You’ve already stated UKR is corrupt. I can’t contemplate PRINTING billions, mostly unaudited, to send to such a corrupt group

We simply don’t have the financial luxury of participating in these proxy wars for the last 40 years. UKR is No different unless our involvement is likely to destroy Russia’s govt, and that just isn’t possible without launching the unthinkables, which destroys about 85% of us. And we don’t need UKR to do that.

National security doesn’t fall under my personal code of conduct but principles apply to governments and individuals. Our founders knew this and structured our laws accordingly. Our current illegitimate govt cabal and many of the past have printed us into oblivion and there will be consequences. Our founders had it right.

“Let frugality and industry be our virtues.” -John Adams.

“Think what you do when you run in debt, you give to another power over your liberty.” -Ben Franklin.

This makes no sense unless it ends Russia, and it won’t.

 

[Whosyodawgy]

You haven’t really given any information, or facts. It’s not about being right, as always, it’s about math, at least to me. I’m afraid you are forgetting the big picture. I used to be that way too. I’m a physicist. matter, energy, force, usually focuses the lens of which I see the world through. Here though, I look at numbers and their Impact on our country’s future and it doesn’t look good. The UKR situation only makes it worse.

While there is some truth in what you say, it doesn’t set forth or Prioritize our risks. We may gain some info on Russia. I am Not sure how much or how useful it will be given that it is being fought close up in UKR. The US will Never fight an up close war with Russia. There is a lot of space between us and it’s much more
Likely that we fight with long range and non traditional weapons. Even financial weapons which we are already seeing. Either way, I dont think the type of info we are getting from UKR would be that useful, to justify the cost.

On to the point. Math. By all indications, the US is entering a debt spiral because we have close to 35 trillion dollars of publicly acknowledged debt. The deficit is increasing by 1 trillion every hundred days. Biden has put out a budget of > 7 trillion in and of itself, for 2025. All in the absence of a direct war and pandemic. Discretionary spending is only about 2 Tr, 5 Tr is fixed cost. This is the biggest problem we face. With that much debt, central banks of the world are starting to really question if the US can maintain the global reserve currency.

When this UKR ordeal started, and Biden kicked Russia out of swift, they de-dollarized in a logarithmic fashion. A lot of countries went with Russia and now the GDP of the BRICS countries exceeds that of the G7 countries. We are in jeopardy of losing dollar reserve status, and these Proxy wars with Russia are contributing heavily to that direction. Interest cost in 2024, for the first time will exceed all of our dept Of defense military spending. Interest is now our country’s second highest expense behind social security. It is unsustainable and creates a debt spiral. Divide debt by GDP and you get an unmanageable ratio of about 127%

The CBO issued a study that said in order to stay afloat, the lowest tax bracket must be increased from 10% to 25%. The middle
Class will have to go from 25% to 63% and the highest tax bracket must be moved From 35% to 88 %. Let those numbers sink in.

The media and government dont like to talk about this. They don’t want to advertise the fact that the US is on the cusp of demise of the reserve status. The government will soon have the largest tax need in our history by a factor of about 10 and people are not considering the stress it will Place on their income and retirement plans like 401k. I get it. It’s much more fun to concentrate on hurting Russians than making sure we meet our domestic obligations like social security, which is our biggest debt threat as only about 50% of baby boomers have already retired. You’ve already stated UKR is corrupt. I can’t contemplate PRINTING billions, mostly unaudited, to send to such a corrupt group

We simply don’t have the financial luxury of participating in these proxy wars for the last 40 years. UKR is No different unless our involvement is likely to destroy Russia’s govt, and that just isn’t possible without launching the unthinkables, which destroys about 85% of us. And we don’t need UKR to do that.

National security doesn’t fall under my personal code of conduct but principles apply to governments and individuals. Our founders knew this and structured our laws accordingly. Our current illegitimate govt cabal and many of the past have printed us into oblivion and there will be consequences. Our founders had it right.

“Let frugality and industry be our virtues.” -John Adams.

“Think what you do when you run in debt, you give to another power over your liberty.” -Ben Franklin.

This makes no sense unless it ends Russia, and it won’t.

Here is one very small example of the kind of critical intel we are gaining from this conflict.

Electronic warfare in Ukraine has lessons for US weapons, navigation

Washington and other governments have committed billions of dollars of aid to Ukraine, including armored vehicles and secure communication devices.

www.yahoo.com

Even if you're immersed in the field of intelligence, it is impossible to grasp how many facets of intelligence there are and all the different aspects of national security they affect. It has to be compartmentalized and then each facet begins to open up revealing even more.
Thinking that the US would "never" be in a conventional war with Russia is a foolhearty assumption. Neither side would use nukes in direct conflict unless the threat is existential. And like I said before, the battlefield is not the war. There's no sustained battlefield without the hundreds of parts working together behind it. Disrupt those and control the front lines. The "war" is simply who can do that the quickest.
The importance of keeping that advantage can't be measured in dollars.

 

[Bells76]

Here is one very small example of the kind of critical intel we are gaining from this conflict.

Electronic warfare in Ukraine has lessons for US weapons, navigation

Washington and other governments have committed billions of dollars of aid to Ukraine, including armored vehicles and secure communication devices.

www.yahoo.com

Even if you're immersed in the field of intelligence, it is impossible to grasp how many facets of intelligence there are and all the different aspects of national security they affect. It has to be compartmentalized and then each facet begins to open up revealing even more.
Thinking that the US would "never" be in a conventional war with Russia is a foolhearty assumption. Neither side would use nukes in direct conflict unless the threat is existential. And like I said before, the battlefield is not the war. There's no sustained battlefield without the hundreds of parts working together behind it. Disrupt those and control the front lines. The "war" is simply who can do that the quickest.
The importance of keeping that advantage can't be measured in dollars.

I’m very familiar with weapon systems and forgive me if I put zero credit in a yahoo article. If we are learning lessons from them, I won’t be so arrogant and naive to think they aren’t learning lessons about us.

Your last Sentence sounds just like government propaganda. Something Obama would say like, if we can save just one life, banning guns is worth it. Purposefully vague ideological statements to bend the minds of others to their political will leading to further theft through taxation. You absolutely can model the UKR regional conflict in dollars. If we destroy ourselves from within, who cares about Russia.

 

[DawglegrightinSC]

You haven’t really given any information, or facts. It’s not about being right, as always, it’s about math, at least to me. I’m afraid you are forgetting the big picture. I used to be that way too. I’m a physicist. matter, energy, force, usually focuses the lens of which I see the world through. Here though, I look at numbers and their Impact on our country’s future and it doesn’t look good. The UKR situation only makes it worse.

While there is some truth in what you say, it doesn’t set forth or Prioritize our risks. We may gain some info on Russia. I am Not sure how much or how useful it will be given that it is being fought close up in UKR. The US will Never fight an up close war with Russia. There is a lot of space between us and it’s much more
Likely that we fight with long range and non traditional weapons. Even financial weapons which we are already seeing. Either way, I dont think the type of info we are getting from UKR would be that useful, to justify the cost.

On to the point. Math. By all indications, the US is entering a debt spiral because we have close to 35 trillion dollars of publicly acknowledged debt. The deficit is increasing by 1 trillion every hundred days. Biden has put out a budget of > 7 trillion in and of itself, for 2025. All in the absence of a direct war and pandemic. Discretionary spending is only about 2 Tr, 5 Tr is fixed cost. This is the biggest problem we face. With that much debt, central banks of the world are starting to really question if the US can maintain the global reserve currency.

When this UKR ordeal started, and Biden kicked Russia out of swift, they de-dollarized in a logarithmic fashion. A lot of countries went with Russia and now the GDP of the BRICS countries exceeds that of the G7 countries. We are in jeopardy of losing dollar reserve status, and these Proxy wars with Russia are contributing heavily to that direction. Interest cost in 2024, for the first time will exceed all of our dept Of defense military spending. Interest is now our country’s second highest expense behind social security. It is unsustainable and creates a debt spiral. Divide debt by GDP and you get an unmanageable ratio of about 127%

The CBO issued a study that said in order to stay afloat, the lowest tax bracket must be increased from 10% to 25%. The middle
Class will have to go from 25% to 63% and the highest tax bracket must be moved From 35% to 88 %. Let those numbers sink in.

The media and government dont like to talk about this. They don’t want to advertise the fact that the US is on the cusp of demise of the reserve status. The government will soon have the largest tax need in our history by a factor of about 10 and people are not considering the stress it will Place on their income and retirement plans like 401k. I get it. It’s much more fun to concentrate on hurting Russians than making sure we meet our domestic obligations like social security, which is our biggest debt threat as only about 50% of baby boomers have already retired. You’ve already stated UKR is corrupt. I can’t contemplate PRINTING billions, mostly unaudited, to send to such a corrupt group

We simply don’t have the financial luxury of participating in these proxy wars for the last 40 years. UKR is No different unless our involvement is likely to destroy Russia’s govt, and that just isn’t possible without launching the unthinkables, which destroys about 85% of us. And we don’t need UKR to do that.

National security doesn’t fall under my personal code of conduct but principles apply to governments and individuals. Our founders knew this and structured our laws accordingly. Our current illegitimate govt cabal and many of the past have printed us into oblivion and there will

be consequences. Our founders had it right.

“Let frugality and industry be our virtues.” -John Adams.

“Think what you do when you run in debt, you give to another power over your liberty.” -Ben Franklin.

This makes no sense unless it ends Russia, and it won’t.

 

[Whosyodawgy]

I’m very familiar with weapon systems and forgive me if I put zero credit in a yahoo article. If we are learning lessons from them, I won’t be so arrogant and naive to think they aren’t learning lessons about us.

Your last Sentence sounds just like government propaganda. Something Obama would say like, if we can save just one life, banning guns is worth it. Purposefully vague ideological statements to bend the minds of others to their political will leading to further theft through taxation. You absolutely can model the UKR regional conflict in dollars. If we destroy ourselves from within, who cares about Russia.

Obviously you didn't even read the article. It's from C4ISRNET. Of course you don't know what that is because you're way too smart to learn anything. It might interfere with your delusion.
If serving my country for over 20 years makes me the "government man" which you call me as a derogatory name, what does never serving it for a fkn minute make you?
Good men paid for your right to throw your little bitch tantrums. You just aren't one of them.
I'm done here.

 

[Bells76]

Obviously you didn't even read the article. It's from C4ISRNET. Of course you don't know what that is because you're way too smart to learn anything. It might interfere with your delusion.
If serving my country for over 20 years makes me the "government man" which you call me as a derogatory name, what does never serving it for a fkn minute make you?
Good men paid for your right to throw your little bitch tantrums. You just aren't one of them.
I'm done here.

LOL. You have no idea what I have done in my country’s service, and continue to do. If speaking up for the future for my kids/grandkids, and others, makes me a tantrum thrower, I’ll take it. I wasn’t referring to you as a govt man in the last response and tried to curtail personal insults as this went along but maybe I didn’t use correct syntax to indicate it. Just because I used the term govt man in later posts, doesn’t mean I was referring to you, but a ton of govt employees in general. Sorry if I wasn’t clear. I used to think the exact way you do so I understand your position even if my words seem harsh.

I don’t think this conflict is worth the money, you do. I can live with that. No hard feelings from my side.