The hate for Obama is about more than liberal policies. It's hate for the man on a caveman level.
We're about to partner up with Russia and Iran in Syria..
- Thread starter HeulenHund2
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The hate for Obama is about more than liberal policies. It's hate for the man on a caveman level.
Many factions invoke "The Crusades" every chance they get. Yes, it still musters motivation for their hate speech. Many of them imagine that the Crusades' intent never changed or ended, that crusaders today are just different players using different technology. Though curious, a Russia/Iran/U.S. coalition is fascinating. Hollywood must be at defcon orgasm.
Some of Bush's rhetoric did have a crusade tone. This whole idea of ''nation building'' and ''democratizing'' could easily be taken as something akin to a crusade.
Something most people seem to lack is an ability to empathize with the other side. Try to imagine Muslims coming to our country, building military bases and trying to convert us.
I nor most conservatives dislike obama, not hate him. I as many others hate his actions not the person.
But he struts around without his shirt on and "talks tough" so well. You can't say that he's another paper tiger or chicken little can you? Lol. Well stated. I agree with your points. This will end badly I think for the Russians if they actually engage in the battle against Isis in the Middle East. They have huge Muslim populations in Russia and their southern neighbors. But I'm sure Putin will look and talk tough which is enough for some of the maroons around here. Imagine if chicken little trump is actually elected. How long til him and Putin would have us at war?
Have you guys not been paying attention to the Russian economy. If they go into the middle looking for a fight, while also having to deal with the Ukraine and their declining economy well we just may be seeing the end of Putin.
The crusades just developed out of thin air? The Europeans didn't start this war, but our Liberal educators have done a great job of selling that they did so they could advance their agenda. Over two hundred battles fought in Spain pre-crusades alone. 3 minutes 43 seconds of your time:
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I want to see Trump's hair vs Putin's chest, THAT would be the personification of world dominance.
I know Putin has impure motives in Syria, but I still think it's in our interest to sign on to his suggestion.
I actually agree with You to a large extent. No doubt early Islam was very aggressive and expansive.
Let's go back in time, then forward to what brought us to where We are now. Long before Mohamed and even before Christ The Persians invaded west and The Greeks invaded east. Later The Romans supplanted The Greeks and other eastern peoples invaded westward.
Mohamed was just the next in line. The big difference is he brought a religion the changed those conquered by him. For whatever reasons Islam proved extremely persuasive. This of course set up a centuries long battle for the hearts, minds and bounty of peoples between Islam and The Catholic Church.
Mohamed wasn't responsible for the division of Catholicism into East and West, but they were the force a succession of Popes had to face to reunite the factions.
The stated goals of the early Crusaders was to open the Holy lands to safe passage for Christian pilgrims and the restoration of a single Holy Roman Empire, which of course meant The Catholic Church's Empire.
These hostilities between faiths and armies didn't stop after The 4th Crusade, far from it. The fight to expel Islam from Europe took centuries. Islam was adopted by a descended faction of The Khans' old Mongolian Empire that became The Ottoman Empire, which did battle with the west till it was defeated in WWI.
Really what We have today is much more about The West's colonizing The Mid-East post WWI, factions of Islam pining for the glory years and their desire to expel western influences and return to Muslim governments.
The best We can hope for in my opinion is to find a way to let them be them and us be us without killing each other.
Excellent sentiment, but if precedence and tendencies mean anything, letting us be us and them them, has never worked for more than a few years at the time. And laissez-faire has not worked at all for any length of time at any level if we break it down to individual relationships, jealousies, insecurities and ignorant rage. There is no resolution for those who would subsist on day to day hatred.
You're dismissing My other points and taking my last sentence out of context. Of course I mean stop trying to force our beliefs on them, and vise a versa.
It can work, our Nation has been the World's proving ground.
Of course it won't be perfect, but it's the only way through this without endless holy wars.
Thank you for the history lesson, seriously. But above is where the problem lies. Their constant call for Jihad and their stated goal of world dominance hinders most sane people's perception of Islam. I realize there are Moderate Muslim, but the extremist's constant infidel die rhetoric sure gets old. It seems we're the only one who wants to live and be.
Zero trust. Sorry.
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Europe once thought as you; look how that has worked out for them.
You're willing to risk your way of life, your children's and grand-children's way of life, on the 'hope' that diversity and tolerance will work? All for the sake of diversity? To prove to yourself, ourselves, we are not racist, xenophobes, or Islamophobes?
After 9/11 everything changed. It opened my eyes to a completely different world. Zero Trust now.
I just want to add this... Liberals don't expect sunni and shia to live peacefully side by side in their own country but then expect, even though they've been fighting for 1400 years, Christians and Muslims to live peacefully side by side in the Judaeo-Christian founded United States of America, in the name of diversity. It's not that easy.
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I've got one idea---I'm afraid you won't like it.
The US should propose an alliance with Assad, Russia, Turkey, Israel, Iran, and Iraq to destroy ISIS and stabilize the region. I know Assad is an evil dictator, but this is no time for moral absolutism and he won't be the first evil dictator our government has allied with. I also don't see any other realistic alternatives.
The Syrian army totals about 100,000 and the air force has about 300 planes. Iran's army and air force is larger and even more effective than Syria's. Assad will use his military against ISIS if the US guarantees the stability of his regime and offers political asylum to Syrian dissidents.
I disagree with you about Putin refusing to be a partner in this alliance. Russia is even more threatened by the existence of ISIS than the US is. Putin will help facilitate cooperation between all parties because it is in his self-interest.
Iran sees ISIS as a mortal threat to Shiite governments in Damascus, Baghdad, and Teheran. The Iranians have a decent army and every reason to join such an alliance. The only stipulation for Iran is that its military must operate ONLY in Southern Iraq and no further north than Baghdad.
It is an idea with considerable risks---Iran and Syria could emerge from the defeat of ISIS as the most powerful nations in the Middle East. However, Syria is primarily a self-protective nation. Iran bears watching because of its revolutionary ideology and its support of Hezbollah. But I view the larger threat to be ISIS, not Iran.
The whole Syrian mess is a proxy war between the US and Iran and Russia. I do not see where an alliance benefits the US at all.
Putin is playing the US like a fiddle here all ready. Sneaking in fighter jets under our noses. Admittedly sending troops and supplies to the Syrians. What is our response? Crickets. This administration has no stomach for any of this.
If the US really wanted to deal with ISIS we could easily wrap up these rag tag Islamic extremist and murderous thugs in a few months. We have no need of forming any type of alliance with our enemies. To what end? So they can take credit for our actions as we are always the ones doing the dirty work. And, I sure don’t want the Russians or Iranians getting a close look at our military equipment or how we operate in a theater of war.
But I'm afraid, this administration will do exactly nothing. They will kick the can down the road for the next administration to deal with the problem our government created in a race to get out of Iraq. I'm not bashing Obama, I'm just sayin.
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Russia is acting much as We always have in The Mid-East. Of course Russia has it's interest, We just need to weigh Our interest in the deal. I think it makes sense to be a part of what is going to happen with or without Us anyway. It puts Us on the inside with some leverage, as opposed to the outside looking in with little influence and looking like We let Russia clean up the mess.
You jumped into a different discussion. Nothing in this thread has been about Muslims in Europe or The U.S.
I prefer to keep this discussion on point.
You said this...
"The best We can hope for in my opinion is to find a way to let them be them and us be us without killing each other."
and this...
"It can work, our Nation has been the World's proving ground.
Of course it won't be perfect, but it's the only way through this without endless holy wars."
That is what I was responding to. Maybe you didn't articulate your point well. Maybe I misunderstood. So be it. My point is still valid.
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Well frankly the blind loyalty and head in the sand ignoring of reality by some here renders any opinion of those blind followers not just questionable but reduces them to intellectually bankrupt status. After 7 years of his narcissistic and childish behavior, racism and at times just plain goofy decision making there is zero doubt, none, that he is a complete and abject failure. Just horrible. He could have been one of the most remarkable presidents in American history, easy top five but he blew it with his agenda driven drivel. And keystone cops policies. Imagine what could have been. Worse the script was already written for him by Martin Luther King. Just act accordingly and be a healer, bigger than the situation however I have long sensed a disdain coming from the president for one of the greatest Americans ever in Dr King.
He revealed what a little man we had elected early on with his stooping to interject himself into a obscure situation where a policeman was doing his job by simply ASKING A MAN FOR IDENTIFICATION! Unfortunately for the country the hot head professor was the one in ten thousand who would refuse to comply to a lawful. simple and correct request. Failing to identify the man would have surely gotten the policeman in trouble or worse, fired. And once he issued the order he was in a position to either obtain ID or corrupt the basic rule of law. Obama knows this since he is a lawyer. But he ( the president) popped off in an unbelievable fashion, showing his deeply racist feelings. The very idea of this cop asking a black citizen for identification, he decided right then and there he would lay down the law on that. Saying the police acted "stupidly".....no Mr President, you acted stupidly, then the beer summit. And it has been down hill from there.
I don't know. It is incredible to those of us who try to understand why some of you folks feel the way you do. And rationalize why you and others feel that his foolish and divisive behavior and the goof ball decisions are good and helpful policy for the president of the USA. Not to mention the citizens who are just trying to raise their children and live their lives.
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The trouble with that long post is, You guys hated the man before he took office, and every day since.
I was reading this board back then. The words have gone from ''Hussean'' and expressions like ''community organizer, calling him a Muslim, ''America Hater, ''African'' etc, etc. The hate behind the words is the same though. Yep, it really has nothing to do with his record. The hate for Obama on this board has been constant from before he was elected to this day.
Going it alone is a recipe for disaster. The US military learned two things from its experience in Vietnam: First, armed intervention cannot stop insurgencies that have popular support on the ground; and second, it cannot defeat an enemy force that is able to use neighboring non-combatant countries as a safe haven. So the answer is no, the United States Army could not easily wrap up ISIS in a few months.
ISIS is part of a larger Sunni insurgency directed against Shiites. You may think that this is a simple matter of the "good guys" militarily defeating the "bad guys", but if the US sends troops to Iraq, it will become a participant in a complex sectarian civil war
This represents the best opportunity for the US to broker an alliance among many interested nations in the region centered around a common threat. I share your pessimism about President Obama, but I would also blame Congress and several Republican presidential candidates who also wish to do nothing about ISIS.
I disagree whole heartedly with your comment "if the us really wanted to deal with Isis we could easily wrap up these rag tag Islamic extremists..." This shows an utter lack of insight into what Isis is at this point and for the Middle East wars all together. Isis extends deep into North Africa including Chad and Niger through the Middle East and into southern Russia. How do you expect to wrap that up? Ten country war? Further, middle eastern wars fought by white folks against the indigenous populace usually end with the white folks losing in the long run with a long and protracted war. Look at isreal versus Hamas Look at Russia in Afghanistan. Or us in Afghanistan and Iraq. Again, isreal could militarily wipe out Hamas etc... Their military is the most capable on earth sans the us. The reason they can't just wrap them up is that Hamas will move from country to country and rebuild and re attack couple that with the fact that the more people of the levant that isreal kills they make ten more enemies with dead fathers. Doesn't work well in the long run. Isreal/Hamas war been going on since the 60's.
Russia getting into the fight in Syria means little and will result in less. Much ado about nothing. If they start actually having casualties they will leave quickly. They can't control the Ukraine which they actually care about and have a legitimate local populace of Russians. But you think they will make any difference in Syria? The only thing they can do is stupidly shoot down a nato plane with SAMs. That would be a catastrophe for their country if chicken little putin actually had that happen. But he is really stupid so.... You can't really think they are "playing the us like a fiddle"?? I think not.
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Russia has actual tangible stakes in Syria. Their only Military base in The region is located there. They also have a far bigger problem with Islamic fighters on their soil than we have. They are very concerned with ISIS spreading into Russian territory.
This isn't just gamesmanship, it's important to Putin and Russia.
As far as the difficulty in defeating ISIS, first You have to find them. They aren't an army of uniforms and bases. They can easily disburse while their opponents are easy to spot.
Also it's obvious many Iraqi soldiers just can't, or won't, fight worth a damn when allied with The US.
(Warning: long again) Laughable and desperate. I would surmise most of the "you guys" in your "pin the tail on the donkey" fable didn't post here at all prior to Jan 2009. I had never heard of this site. But in a typical and feeble fashion you neo puritan libs drop all pretenses when you don't have the facts and resort to name calling. Read my position on intellectually bankrupt lib conversation. I am reminded of an old and famous defense attorney in my Texas days and his landmark statement: "when you have the law on your side, bang the law, when you have the facts on your side, bang the facts, when you have neither bang the table"....a sure sign of frustration and lack of factual response with you libs is when you shift from the facts and scream hate, hate, hate or childishly name call! Problem is that game is old since it has been worn out in these facts shy days of pretense when it comes to defending the un-defensible. Crying wolf is code for you're right and I have no credible response. Face it you own the failure since you "acted stupidly" and went to the wall defending this flawed administration without reservation. Spinning furiously in a vacuum of proof until your logic and your defense is twisted like a pretzel as their "walk-on" policies got more convoluted and curious by the day. Truth is they are just existing and making it up as they go along.
Why is that? That is another story but it absolutely has to do with incompetent people making world affecting and sweeping decisions that they are not qualified to make. I actually believe he, the rookie walk-on had a surprisingly decent group of advisers around him his first term although you could tell he was either ignoring much of what they advised. Or just didn't get it since he was too busy enjoying his conquest. And what a conquest it was (giving credit here). A guy with a string of ridiculous to evil friendships and associations and mentors and very little real employment reads a hell of a speech at the democratic convention and wins a spot in the Illinois legislature. Where he basically never shows or takes few positions. True to his lack of focus or employment or direction up to that point. I really believe (although given the vague nature of his existence it is hard to pin down) he had survived on his wife's no show jobs primarily for subsistence to that time. He then is elected to the US senate based upon the reading I suppose, where he again shows a disinterest in the job, but appeared very much to like the position.
But back to the why. The first term he was merely somewhat incompetent, somewhat inconsistent and yes, somewhat racially divisive both domestically and world wide. And unfocused on job 1, the economy ( which is still staggering along, 7 long years into the recovery that will never end it appears given the huge drop in confidence in the economy just announced). Preferring to do something about health care which needed something done about it, namely giving everyone a chance to see the doctor but not at the massive expense to most everyone and not the convoluted ObamaCare package. But the real Obama didn't fully bloom til the second go around. Where he relieved and replaced most of the professional politicians in his admin and replaced them with friends, fellow travelers and folks he didn't feel inferior too. And the bottom has fallen out, predictably. His current legacy is a world in turmoil and incredible division and hate predicated on politics, race and difference at home. The evidence is his extreme left views, cynical and negative view of life and our country, not to mention his lack of work ethic, ill prepared him to perform as an Illinois state legislator, not to mention president of the USA. He or maybe his wife or the both of them have pretty obviously done a good job raising their children and keeping their family together and that means something. But even that comes with a caveat, they also exposed them to the Rev Jeremiah Wright's real hate filled diatribe for years and years. And allowed their minds to be so exposed for some 20 years.
I will say this: he has shown how far a guy can come if he will step out and take a shot. An incredible long shot and he has been the president of the USA for two terms. His story is one for the ages mister. He obviously has a knack for oratory, given a teleprompter and a hair raising speech writer. He has managed in whatever fashion to overcome a ton of baggage and a vague past. But he also came along and was seemingly at the right place, with the right set of criteria to capitalize on the voting public's changing demographics and mood. And that is a tribute to the America that he regularly takes to task. Nowhere else in the world could this have happened yet he is still disgruntled, or so it appears at times. And his blind followers are full of vitriol and hate.
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At least we're consistent. For the record, I was a Liberal-Democrat hating Republican long before I ever heard the name Obama.
Now, back on point...
If we had the political will we could have taken out Isis in a blink of an eye. Instead we sat back, ignored the intelligence and advisers, and let Isis grow out of control. Now, because of incompetence from a certain leader (JV team), the world has a real mess on their hands. I'm feeling generous this morning and will concede the point, we may have to "partner" with others to defeat this growing menace.
Go Dawgs!
It was a mistake to not take action sooner, just as The Jr B. Administration let Iraqis run wild after the invasion.
Excellent point. On the one hand the neo puritan libs select an obscure and rare act by whatever whacky white screwup (the shooting by the kook in Charleston comes to mind) and makes it into a tea party, conservative, southern, ?confederate? (lol), Christian act. After all sooner or later they will find one since there are likely just over 200M of us to pick from but anyway that is their mentality. Whereas they then go to the wall with militant Islamists screaming some phobia or the other when they develop huge armies, huge terorists organizations and yes are a very significant part of that overall population. Blowing up over 3,000 Americans at one sitting. Running amuck militarily and challenging the world's great armies to stop them which to this point has not happened.
A sorry sight. And one that grossly creates division and paralysis by analysis and division among people who should know better. All for the sake of some tiny and self defeating political point.
Hear! Hear!! I voted (wrote in a ticket of Obama/Palin) for him the first run. As a "compassionate conservative," I genuinely yearn for real "change." I see McCain and Biden as the same face of everything wrong with our BROKEN system. Obama had the mandate to repair relationships to afford more effective and efficient government. He has failed that charge epically. We've seen only smug gamesmanship and vindictive frat boy bluster. Most media geeks care less about his celebrity or his pretend wisdom. They predictably continue to serve only to stir the cauldron and sell the stink of discord he serves up and they gleefully deliver. We're all dupes of it all and we should all feel ashamed. Not guilty, just ashamed. CHANGE can still happen, but professional politicians nor crony capitalism can or will ever deliver real change. So we are left to hope or to do something about it. Term limits and caps on campaign finance at all levels of government would be a start.
I agree, and am no fan of BO, but to be fair, GW lied to us and took us back into Iraq, for what exactly? I assumed it was an oil move and seemed maybe a needed covert move that the public didn't need to know about. I could almost accept that. But that wasn't it. I still don't know why we went in there. I do know that if I had a kid that was hurt there I would be furious! But that set the stage for Obama to make it worse.
Saudis won't be signing on with the Russians and Iran. They are funding Isis. Isis is the Sunni revolution against the Shiite majority in Iraq.
Not a Dubya fan either, but his/our biggest gaffe of all was telegraphing our intentions almost SIX (6) MONTHS in advance of acting on them. Had there been 80 nuclear submarines in dry storage in downtown Baghdad, our street level intelligence there was so shallow that all 80 of them could have been dismantled and shipped via city busses to any number of adjoining countries with a little help from arms dealers in and around Moscow. The fact that we found none does not mean they were never there. Many of us if not most of us wanted there to be nothing found, and were so relieved that nothing was found, that we convinced ourselves we had nothing more to fear and that was all we needed to know/believe, end of conversation and end of any other possibilities. Every leader on the planet thought weapons were there and they all knew they had gas bombed their own citizens, primarily the Kurds, but we found no gas either. In fact, by the time we started really looking for weapons of any kind, all weapons and all ammunition storage facilities had been cleaned out. Someone with more knowledge and more power than any of us dictated that our armed forces give the Iraqis the designated time they needed to relocate their entire arsenal. And someone or group or government profited handsomely by doing so.
It is rarely ever transparent action/reaction over there.
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