Can someone explain the outrage, directed at Isreal to me?

[poorpreacher]

I see lots of rage, directed at Israel, accusing them of atrocities, killing children, treating people like animals, etc.

But wasn't Israel attacked in October?

To me, it looks like Palestinians are mad because Israel hit back, and hit harder.

If you don't want war, don't start war.

How can anyone complain about Isreal's actions, when they are in direct response to an attack on their home?

Yes, innocent casualties are awful. But it's not as simple as the "Isreal is murdering people" narrative I see in many places.

What am I missing. Don't attack if you didn't want to fight.

 

[Dirty Hairy Dawg]

There is a mentality that exists on the left that the weak should prevail over the strong based on victimhood. So, those that believe the Palestinians are victims of Israel instead of being victims of their own decisions believe Israels response to all attacks should be proportional.

It doesn't matter that pre 10/7 the Palestinians could live in peace simply by choosing to live in peace. It doesn't matter that Palestinians could live, work and thrive in Israel alongside of their Jewish population. It doesn't matter that Israel has swapped land for peace in the past only to be attacked again. It doesn't matter that Islamic jihadist hide behind women and children. All that matters is Israel became stronger, is able to defend their territory and any disproportionate response is evil.

 

[PotimusWillie]

I see lots of rage, directed at Isreal, accusing them of atrocious, killing children, treating people like animals, etc.

But wasn't Isreal attacked in October?

To me, it looks like Palestinians are mad because Isreal hit back, and hit harder.

If you don't want war, don't start war.

How can anyone complain about Isreal's actions, when they are in direct response to an attack on their home?

Yes, innocent casualties are awful. But it's not as simple as the "Isreal is murdering people" narrative I see in many places.

What am I missing. Don't attack if you didn't want to fight.

The Israel / Middle East issue is scriptural. It has existed since New Testament times.

It’s not economy. It’s not landmass ancesteral fairness. And with all the screaming of genecidal conquest….

It’s spiritual.

Why do middle eastern countries and providences wage war with each other for seemingly benign reasons?

It makes no sense.

It is very much like gang / turf wars. You attack your enemy when weakness is shown and you back away when strength is shown.

We are experiencing the same thing in our country now.

On the spiritual and scriptural issue, the Muslim culture will not co-exist with any other culture or religion once it gains majority. It never has and never will. Their standard of law is in direct conflict with Christian or “Western” values. Their law is demanded. That just needs to be understood. It will assimilate in order to ultimately control.

So if we think for a minute that we can solve it, we are fooling ourselves.

If someone doesn’t think it’s spiritual blindness, how do gay and lesbians openly protest for the very culture that would have them killed under Sharia law?

Interesting.

 

[poorpreacher]

There is a mentality that exists on the left that the weak should prevail over the strong based on victimhood. So, those that believe the Palestinians are victims of Israel instead of being victims of their own decisions believe Israels response to all attacks should be proportional.

It doesn't matter that pre 10/7 the Palestinians could live in peace simply by choosing to live in peace. It doesn't matter that Palestinians could live, work and thrive in Israel alongside of their Jewish population. It doesn't matter that Israel has swapped land for peace in the past only to be attacked again. It doesn't matter that Islamic jihadist hide behind women and children. All that matters is Israel became stronger, is able to defend their territory and any disproportionate response is evil.

I don't get the idea of a disproportionate response. "Hey! You are hitting me back too much"

You cant kick a hornets nest and then be angry, because they keep stinging.

 

[SLC_Dawg]

It’s fashionable to protest. You earn your stripes in the left by joining in every protest, like merit badges to an Eagle Scout. These are the truly stupid among us, even though they might be going to Harvard. These are some easily manipulated people.

All the Palestinians cheered 10/7, they’re paying for it now. I hope Israel hurts them so badly that they reject anything to do with Hamas in the future.

 

[OriginalGatorHator]

I mean there are quite a few different camps fed up with Israel for different reasons.

The reason why a rising number of left wingers are angry at Israel is Jews are seen as white by its new revolutionaries. Whites are evil therefore Jews are evil meaning Israel is evil.

Then you have the relatively small camp on the right that believe Jews control the west and push for the eradication of western culture. They hate Israel for this reason.

Then you have the camp, which is the camp I’m in, that is fed up with (1) dispensationalism leading to the die hard support of the modern state of Israel and (2) foreign aid. I just don’t care about Israel. I wish them the best in their future wars but they shouldn’t be seeing a single cent from us and the myth that Israel is our greatest ally needs to die.

It can also get a little frustrating when people just don’t believe their lying eyes about what Israel is doing in Gaza. It’s blown well past any kind of proportional response and it will ultimately lead to America accepting millions of refugees from Palestine. Which is terrible for us.

 

[Dawgdocindosta]

I mean there are quite a few different camps fed up with Israel for different reasons.

The reason why a rising number of left wingers are angry at Israel is Jews are seen as white by its new revolutionaries. Whites are evil therefore Jews are evil meaning Israel is evil.

Then you have the relatively small camp on the right that believe Jews control the west and push for the eradication of western culture. They hate Israel for this reason.

Then you have the camp, which is the camp I’m in, that is fed up with (1) dispensationalism leading to the die hard support of the modern state of Israel and (2) foreign aid. I just don’t care about Israel. I wish them the best in their future wars but they shouldn’t be seeing a single cent from us and the myth that Israel is our greatest ally needs to die.

It can also get a little frustrating when people just don’t believe their lying eyes about what Israel is doing in Gaza. It’s blown well past any kind of proportional response and it will ultimately lead to America accepting millions of refugees from Palestine. Which is terrible for us.

The Israelis have one of the most sophisticated intelligent groups in the world and are strategically located to monitor an area of the world that is constantly volatile and can have significant repercussions for us. That's not an excuse to send them billions of dollars. But it is factual information. Having them as an ally is important.
JC

 

[OriginalGatorHator]

The Israelis have one of the most sophisticated intelligent groups in the world and are strategically located to monitor an area of the world that is constantly volatile and can have significant repercussions for us. That's not an excuse to send them billions of dollars. But it is factual information. Having them as an ally is important.
JC

Agree to disagree here.

 

[Dirty Hairy Dawg]

I don't get the idea of a disproportionate response. "Hey! You are hitting me back too much"

You cant kick a hornets nest and then be angry, because they keep stinging.

I get it but at some point, folks can become sympathetic to the plight of a bully that gets a merciless beat down even though they have harassed and bullied the other party for yrs.

 

[Eastmandawg]

The Israelis have one of the most sophisticated intelligent groups in the world and are strategically located to monitor an area of the world that is constantly volatile and can have significant repercussions for us. That's not an excuse to send them billions of dollars. But it is factual information. Having them as an ally is important.
JC

Truth!

 

[OriginalGatorHator]

Truth!

Even if we presume its true.

The reflexive reaction that Israel can do no wrong is just tiresome.

If Australia wiped out New Zealand in response to a group of Kiwis attacking Australia do you think we’d be having this discussion?

Even though Australia is has been by far a greater ally to America than Israel?

 

[litedawg1968]

I mean there are quite a few different camps fed up with Israel for different reasons.

The reason why a rising number of left wingers are angry at Israel is Jews are seen as white by its new revolutionaries. Whites are evil therefore Jews are evil meaning Israel is evil.

Then you have the relatively small camp on the right that believe Jews control the west and push for the eradication of western culture. They hate Israel for this reason.

Then you have the camp, which is the camp I’m in, that is fed up with (1) dispensationalism leading to the die hard support of the modern state of Israel and (2) foreign aid. I just don’t care about Israel. I wish them the best in their future wars but they shouldn’t be seeing a single cent from us and the myth that Israel is our greatest ally needs to die.

It can also get a little frustrating when people just don’t believe their lying eyes about what Israel is doing in Gaza. It’s blown well past any kind of proportional response and it will ultimately lead to America accepting millions of refugees from Palestine. Which is terrible for us.

Please define " proportional response".

Also, when Hamas has made it their lifes mission to wipe Israel off the map, what is a " Proportional response" to that? What if your neighbor decided they wanted your home where you and your family live to not exist anymore? How would you respond?

 

[Eastmandawg]

Even if we presume its true.

The reflexive reaction that Israel can do no wrong is just tiresome.

If Australia wiped out New Zealand in response to a group of Kiwis attacking Australia do you think we’d be having this discussion?

Even though Australia is has been by far a greater ally to America than Israel?

What do you want Israel to do??

 

[litedawg1968]

Even if we presume its true.

The reflexive reaction that Israel can do no wrong is just tiresome.

If Australia wiped out New Zealand in response to a group of Kiwis attacking Australia do you think we’d be having this discussion?

Even though Australia is has been by far a greater ally to America than Israel?

Bull sht. Israel has been our little brother for a very long time. Australia?

 

[litedawg1968]

Even if we presume its true.

The reflexive reaction that Israel can do no wrong is just tiresome.

If Australia wiped out New Zealand in response to a group of Kiwis attacking Australia do you think we’d be having this discussion?

Even though Australia is has been by far a greater ally to America than Israel?

The reflexive action of taking sides w terrorists is the other option.

 

[poorpreacher]

Even if we presume its true.

The reflexive reaction that Israel can do no wrong is just tiresome.

If Australia wiped out New Zealand in response to a group of Kiwis attacking Australia do you think we’d be having this discussion?

Even though Australia is has been by far a greater ally to America than Israel?

I stopped counting after the 2nd logical fallacy in this post.

 

[litedawg1968]

What do you want Israel to do??

He wants them to give up and bow down to terrorists , which will happen right after Hell freezes over.

 

[OriginalGatorHator]

Bull sht. Israel has been our little brother for a very long time. Australia?

Australians have fought side by side with Americans since the First World War. Israel never has, plus you know Australia never sank an American destroyer.

 

[TivoliDawg]

I see lots of rage, directed at Isreal, accusing them of atrocious, killing children, treating people like animals, etc.

But wasn't Isreal attacked in October?

To me, it looks like Palestinians are mad because Isreal hit back, and hit harder.

If you don't want war, don't start war.

How can anyone complain about Isreal's actions, when they are in direct response to an attack on their home?

Yes, innocent casualties are awful. But it's not as simple as the "Isreal is murdering people" narrative I see in many places.

What am I missing. Don't attack if you didn't want to fight.

You start with the end result you want in mind: Ex. - “I want to hate Israel because their phenotype is white and I want to support Palestinians because their phenotype is Brown”.

Once you know what conclusion you want to come to, it’s easy to describe any action by Israel, as “torture“, “extreme“, etc.

Every single war in the history of humankind has civilian casualties and any war in the future will have civilian casualties. Israel is taking more steps to prevent loss of civilian life than any other military has taken in history.

In World War II, we dropped two atomic bombs on randomly selected Japanese cities to send a message that they should quit. We also firebombed Dresden in Germany to simply send a message that they were outgunned.

All wars involve killing huge amounts of civilians, sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally.

The people claiming that they don’t like the way Israel is waging war are people who simply did not like Israel before. The people trying to support the Hamas terrorist now are the people who are supporting Hamas terrorist before

 

[OriginalGatorHator]

He wants them to give up and bow down to terrorists , which will happen right after Hell freezes over.

I could care less what Israel does, I just want to stop pretending it’s operating on a moral high ground here.

 

[litedawg1968]

I could care less what Israel does, I just want to stop pretending it’s operating on a moral high ground here.

You seem to care.

And also since Israel didn’t exist until 1948 thst would have made it difficult to fight along side of the US. in World Wars. They have been our intelligence partners since their inception.

 

[poorpreacher]

Palestinian celebration of Oct. 7

 

[Eastmandawg]

I could care less what Israel does, I just want to stop pretending it’s operating on a moral high ground here.

So you want Israel to stop pretending it’s on a “high moral ground”…..Is that your argument??

 

[-lowcountrydawg]

Pretty simple -

if Hamas puts down their weapons and releases hostages there is immediate peace.

If Israel puts down their weapons, there will be no more Israel or Jews in the Middle East.

The false equivalence is total bullshit.

 

[litedawg1968]

Pretty simple -

if Hamas puts down their weapons and releases hostages there is immediate peace.

If Israel puts down their weapons, there will be no more Israel or Jews in the Middle East.

The false equivalence is total bullshit.

Thank you. Proportional response is also horse shit.

 

[poorpreacher]

I think an argument can be made that enough is enough. It might not be the correct position, but....it is not an unreasonable position.

In my opinion, there is a lot of territory between

"Ok, Israel, you have made your point, lets throttle it back a bit"
and
"You are all a bunch of murderers, who treat humans like animals!"

Its the selective outrage that gets me.

 

[70X Takeoff]

I mean there are quite a few different camps fed up with Israel for different reasons.

The reason why a rising number of left wingers are angry at Israel is Jews are seen as white by its new revolutionaries. Whites are evil therefore Jews are evil meaning Israel is evil.

Then you have the relatively small camp on the right that believe Jews control the west and push for the eradication of western culture. They hate Israel for this reason.

Then you have the camp, which is the camp I’m in, that is fed up with (1) dispensationalism leading to the die hard support of the modern state of Israel and (2) foreign aid. I just don’t care about Israel. I wish them the best in their future wars but they shouldn’t be seeing a single cent from us and the myth that Israel is our greatest ally needs to die.

It can also get a little frustrating when people just don’t believe their lying eyes about what Israel is doing in Gaza. It’s blown well past any kind of proportional response and it will ultimately lead to America accepting millions of refugees from Palestine. Which is terrible for us.

"It’s blown well past any kind of proportional response"

So they should just accept that their hostages should just be taken from them? They aren't killing Palestinians for the hell of it, you dope. They are going after their hostages, and Hamas uses their own people as shields. That's not Israel's fault in their quest to get back their hostages.

 

[70X Takeoff]

I think an argument can be made that enough is enough. It might not be the correct position, but....it is not an unreasonable position.

In my opinion, there is a lot of territory between

"Ok, Israel, you have made your point, lets throttle it back a bit"
and
"You are all a bunch of murderers, who treat humans like animals!"

Its the selective outrage that gets me.

How is it "enough is enough" when they have yet to get their hostages back and have yet to eliminate Hamas?

 

[TivoliDawg]

I could care less what Israel does, I just want to stop pretending it’s operating on a moral high ground here.

How much less could you care?

Also, in your mind, why does Israel not have the moral high ground in this conflict?

 

[70X Takeoff]

Pretty simple -

if Hamas puts down their weapons and releases hostages there is immediate peace.

If Israel puts down their weapons, there will be no more Israel or Jews in the Middle East.

The false equivalence is total bullshit.

This is the exact point. Very well said, lowcountrydawg.

 

[OriginalGatorHator]

So you want Israel to stop pretending it’s on a “high moral ground”…..Is that your argument??

OP asked for the reason why there is outrage directed at Israel. I responded.

You asked me what I want Israel to do. I don’t care what Israel does or doesn’t do as long as it doesn’t involve us.

But we bank roll Israel and every military action it takes is only possible because of the promise that America will destroy its enemies should things get to dire, I would prefer it we quit acting like Israel is some helpless nerdy kid with glasses fighting back against its big bad bullies.

 

[poorpreacher]

How is it "enough is enough" when they have yet to get their hostages back and have yet to eliminate Hamas?

I didn't say I hold that position.

You missed the point I was making. Reread my post

 

[TivoliDawg]

View embedded media

Palestinian celebration of Oct. 7

There can be no negotiation with people who say (and act) that their only goal is your death.

They mean it.

The issue is Islam. The Japanese were able to get past their hatred for thr Allies/ USA because supporting the Japanese emperor is not a religion, it’s political party. Supporting the PLO, Hammas, Hezzbollah, ISIS, etc. are religious movements where the followers are not focused on any goal of this earth.

 

[70X Takeoff]

I didn't say I hold that position.

You missed the point I was making. Reread my post

I understood you don't hold that position, but you did say it is not an unreasonable position. Actually, it is a most unreasonable position. As long as Hamas exists and as long as Israel does not have its hostages back, then no one can say that we are at the "enough is enough" stage of this.

 

[OriginalGatorHator]

How much less could you care?

Also, in your mind, why does Israel not have the moral high ground in this conflict?

I mean it corralled a bunch of Palestinians into a tiny land strip. Of course those people aren’t going to take that lying down.

It’s war, it’s conquest. We did the same thing to the Indians. It was great for us and I feel no shame over it but I wouldn’t expect a Norwegian to look at the conquering of the Indians and corralling them into reservations and expect him to affirm that we took the moral high ground.

 

[Dirty Hairy Dawg]

I think an argument can be made that enough is enough. It might not be the correct position, but....it is not an unreasonable position.

In my opinion, there is a lot of territory between

"Ok, Israel, you have made your point, lets throttle it back a bit"
and
"You are all a bunch of murderers, who treat humans like animals!"

Its the selective outrage that gets me.

Historically, when enough is enough, the vanquished surrendered and agreed to terms. In this case the terms could be as simple as agreeing to Israel's right to exist, destroying any offensive weapons and to submit to routine inspections to ensure compliance. Until recently, the victor didnt stop while the defeated were determined to regroup and resume hostilities.

 

[TivoliDawg]

I mean it corralled a bunch of Palestinians into a tiny land strip. Of course those people aren’t going to take that lying down.

It’s war, it’s conquest. We did the same thing to the Indians. It was great for us and I feel no shame over it but I wouldn’t expect a Norwegian to look at the conquering of the Indians and corralling them into reservations and expect him to affirm that we took the moral high ground.

I see.

So you’re not debating that Israel has the moral high ground in this specific conflict, your position is that it was immoral to accept the UN Resolution which created Israel as a country and, therefore, retaliation should be expected by Palestinians?

 

[70X Takeoff]

I mean it corralled a bunch of Palestinians into a tiny land strip. Of course those people aren’t going to take that lying down.

It’s war, it’s conquest. We did the same thing to the Indians. It was great for us and I feel no shame over it but I wouldn’t expect a Norwegian to look at the conquering of the Indians and corralling them into reservations and expect him to affirm that we took the moral high ground.

But you didn't have a problem when the Jordanians booted the Palestinians from Jordan? I see the double standard here. Perhaps you should actually learn about the history of the area rather than repeating what you see and hear from CNN or MSNBC.

 

[Dawgdocindosta]

Even if we presume its true.

The reflexive reaction that Israel can do no wrong is just tiresome.

If Australia wiped out New Zealand in response to a group of Kiwis attacking Australia do you think we’d be having this discussion?

Even though Australia is has been by far a greater ally to America than Israel?

No we wouldn't. But Australia is not strategic to our well being. Again, this isn't an excuse as much as it is factual. We have no one in that area of the world we can even remotely trust.
JC

 

[poorpreacher]

I understood you don't hold that position, but you did say it is not an unreasonable position. Actually, it is a most unreasonable position. As long as Hamas exists and as long as Israel does not have its hostages back, then no one can say that we are at the "enough is enough" stage of this.

Maybe I didn't choose my words correctly.

My point was/is, saying "Maybe its time to quit" (right or wrong) is a different discussion from "You are all a bunch of baby killing war criminals!"

One conversation is drastically different from the other.