Glad to see the government will stop issuing military gear to police departments
- Thread starter ''M''
- Start date
Seeing the paramilitary gear and style and occupation of our American cities just isn't anything I want
Gross overreaction in your statement. Occupation, really? There are times when is can be beneficial and its a shame to see military equipment that has a practical use go to the junkyard when others can use it. This is not something that is worn or used daily, but is available when a need arises. Let me ask you this. What do you do if you have a sniper on a campus (like the Texas tower) and he starts shooting people and they are laying there in need of medical assistance? It sure would be good to have an armored vehicle to go in protected and save them.
I don't want to see the militarization of police either, but I really don't think that is what is happening.
It's totally what's happening .... Equipment has gone straight from the battlefield to Main Street. Just look at Ferguson, Boston, Baltimore ....
What would you suggest the police use to quell lawlessness? Or is it better to turn the military on the populace? If the Baltimore Mayor had her Law Enforcement move in she could have saved a lot of businesses and stopped the lawlessness. The police are supposed to serve and protect, but the business owners got no protection for their tax dollars. Again, the police only use this equipment when there is a specific need for it. That is not unreasonable. The police have had access to this equipment for at least 20 years. Can you name me some specific incidents where this equipment was used and not needed. Where was this equipment use abusive?
I think there is a much bigger issue with raids and warrants than with military equipment. We frequently hear of raids where innocents are hurt or where they raid the wrong home. I can't even recall of a time where a police department misused military equipment.
I think there is a much bigger issue with raids and warrants than with military equipment. We frequently hear of raids where innocents are hurt or where they raid the wrong home. I can't even recall of a time where a police department misused military equipment.
I actually agree with "M" on this one. Giving local yahoos armored vehicles to have to store AND maintain
is just bad bidness financially.
Not to mention that cops used to be seen as friendly to civilians overall, but now they show up for a warrant to be served wearing flak jackets in an APC with M4's and 4 types of grenades. It's a bit overkill in this day when the government is seen as an aggressive
force against John Q, Public.
There are dozens of examples, if you really want them. Go back to the image of Elian Gonzalez being 'captured' and take a good look at it. THAT is what people see. It's an image problem if nothing else.
is just bad bidness financially.
Not to mention that cops used to be seen as friendly to civilians overall, but now they show up for a warrant to be served wearing flak jackets in an APC with M4's and 4 types of grenades. It's a bit overkill in this day when the government is seen as an aggressive
force against John Q, Public.
There are dozens of examples, if you really want them. Go back to the image of Elian Gonzalez being 'captured' and take a good look at it. THAT is what people see. It's an image problem if nothing else.
I'm not a police but I am an American and I don't think tanks, humvees, and personnel carriers, RPG launchers and drones should be used on Americans , whether or not they are mad and marching, or even rioting
Well, they're not cutting it off altogether. Just some of the things that are of more use on a battlefield than in urban police work. My little county of about 20K and no toen over 5K people has an APC of its very own. The trouble with "toys for big boys" is when any opportunity comes up you want to play with them. Our APC hasn't rooled out ----yet.
BoB
BoB
That's another gross exaggeration. First it hasn't happened. Secondly, no one has tanks. What they have is armored vehicles to protect from incoming fire. The sniper incident I mentioned earlier for example. There have been many incidents of a victim or police officer down within shooting distance of a barricaded gunman. You need a way to get to them. Humvees is a perfect vehicle for off road needs or inclement weather. If your grandmother were out of power during an ice storm out in the country, you would be happy to have police show up with help in a humvee.
As far the other weapons you mention, I have yet to see them used on Americans. Let me ask you this if "rioters" are destroying your business or your home, what do you think the proper response should be? Is your only solution to let the rioters have their way and watch everything burn?
Bob, I understand what you are saying, if its there everyone wants a piece of the free pie. However, there are a lot of stipulations that come with getting this equipment. They don't just hand it to you and say "good luck." If that department has never rolled it out, that tells me they are using proper discretion and will only use it when properly needed. There are things that civilian authorities don't need, but most of these things can have an appropriate civilian use.
The other thing is that most departments with means are just going to purchase the civilian equivalent to these things anyway. You can do a way with this avenue, but they are going to have access to the same things, they are just going to take it from the city and county coffers (i.e. tax money).
As far the other weapons you mention, I have yet to see them used on Americans. Let me ask you this if "rioters" are destroying your business or your home, what do you think the proper response should be? Is your only solution to let the rioters have their way and watch everything burn?
Bob, I understand what you are saying, if its there everyone wants a piece of the free pie. However, there are a lot of stipulations that come with getting this equipment. They don't just hand it to you and say "good luck." If that department has never rolled it out, that tells me they are using proper discretion and will only use it when properly needed. There are things that civilian authorities don't need, but most of these things can have an appropriate civilian use.
The other thing is that most departments with means are just going to purchase the civilian equivalent to these things anyway. You can do a way with this avenue, but they are going to have access to the same things, they are just going to take it from the city and county coffers (i.e. tax money).
BTW, Elian Gonzalez in Miami and Waco were federal raids and no one is talking about taking away their equipment.
The warrants that you are addressing are High Risk warrants. Now, I will grant you that in some places everything becomes a high risk warrant and there is a problem. I have problems with it also, but if you are a police officer going into a known hostile situation with an armed gunman, you are probably going to do all you can to protect your officers and there are only so many ways to do that.
I would agree that it's an image problem, but I would also say that if we keep taking all the tools away from officers, we are going to make it impossible for them to do their job effectively or safely.
It always looks a little off when "Mayberry" ends up with a APC. My guess is that someone (Mayor, City Manager, etc.) had to sign off on the military APC.
Agree with you 100% Dawg to the Bone. The criminals all have this stuff and can access it on the street easier than LE.
Hey! Quit being logical! Or when ISIS decides they want to take over a school, and they setup a peremiter, probably be nice to have an MRAP or two.
Yeah but that would mean we would want to rescue everyone from the school and try an d protect them an ourselves. That's crazy talk
You're funny. Why because you say so? You offer nothing substantive. All you have is how you feel about the issue, but I am wrong. Amazing.
My point is that there are some very legitimate uses for this equipment and until we actually see abuses of this equipment what is the problem? You guys seem to trust the Feds who go overboard more than anyone with military grade equipment, but want to deny it to your local communities. Why?
At any rate, I understand your concerns and view I just think the truth is probably somewhere in between.
You are right, we shouldn't prepare for things that haven't happened yet, we should wait for them to happen then prepare after the fact. Genius I say.
I don't believe I said any such thing .... I don't think you need to deploy heavy military equipment all over America 'just in case' a nightmare scenario that has never happened, MIGHT happen
Billions of dollars in equipment and the militarization of police forces all over the country just in case ISIS organizes an army within our own borders?
Apparently you don't understand a lot. Jungle was simply using Isis as an example. We already have those that want to cause harm to any one. For example we have gangs calling themselves neighbor Taliban insert whatever hood they are from in front of Taliban. As much as you don't want to believe it they wouldn't waste a second to use their ak, ar, actual grenade or any other militarized weapon against you. But I know because you don't believe it can happen it won't right.
I'm more concerned about the "sovereign citizens" movement and organized crime than I am about religious zealots of any religion.
The biggest problem with "toys for big boys", and I've been there, is that you really, really, want to play with them.
BoB
The biggest problem with "toys for big boys", and I've been there, is that you really, really, want to play with them.
BoB
Ever hear of a little town in Russia named Beslan?
http://rt.com/news/183964-beslan-school-hostage-crisis/
I'm more afraid of our local police than Russian terrorists at this point.
Imagine OCD with an APC and flak jacket with taped together magazines for his M4.
Imagine OCD with an APC and flak jacket with taped together magazines for his M4.
I agree....there isn't a chance of that happening here in the USA . That's my point exactly
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