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Food for thought...

Moosefish

Πλοηγός
Moderator
Aug 11, 2001
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...All of it from non-Trump supporters. I'm not debating this, further...I've already covered much of this, previously. Those that ignored it when I addressed it before will likely ignore it again. That's fine...my assumption is that all or most will be discussed on appeal.


1. In Memory of Justice (a bit lengthy, pasted below). The legal issues summarized are the most complete I've read. Everybody should read all of it, if interested.

The country we love has become unlovely.

It pains me to say that. But I can’t help but feel the same anguish written on the faces of friends who, like me, grew up in the justice system. Friends who couldn’t care less about Donald Trump, who won’t vote for him, who look at the cynical circus that just closed down in lower Manhattan as still more confirmation of his appalling judgment and character . . . but who remember what American law enforcement was at its imperfect best. Friends who verge on weeping openly over what’s happened to it.

Our system embodied the rule of law, the sturdy undercarriage of a free, prosperous, pluralistic society. Now, on its good days, it’s a clown show. On the bad days — there are far too many of those — it’s a political weapon.

If you enact laws that reflect civic virtue, and you enforce them without fear or favor, and if you work really hard at it because it’s no easy thing, you can have liberty in all its feisty splendor. But as the rule of law degrades into the rule of partisan lawyers, a constitutional republic inexorably decays into a banana republic. And it won’t take long.

Again, this isn’t about Trump. He is just the floor model. Don’t mistake him for the phenomenon itself.

A criminal trial is not a morality play. It is not about a person’s suitability for a public office of high trust. If it were, it would be worth recounting in chapter and verse how the facts of People v. Trump attest to Donald Trump’s unfitness for the presidency — the extramarital flings, the lying, the intimate association with rogues like Michael Cohen and David Pecker, the bookkeeping practices that were as mind-bogglingly dumb as they were intentionally misleading. Yes, technically speaking, nondisclosure agreements with porn stars are not campaign expenditures the non-reporting of which is a cognizable federal felony; but that doesn’t make one’s unfair prosecution over them worthy of comparison to the travails of Mother Teresa. And yes, Trump’s record-keeping may be on the right side of the fraud line, barely; that doesn’t make it any more “perfect” than the “perfect” phone call with Zelensky, the “perfect” speech on the Ellipse, and the “perfect” retention of highly classified intelligence at a resort club.

But neither that, nor the daft, self-defeating defense strategy that unfolded over the past six weeks, comes close to rationalizing the shambles that progressive Democrats have made of our justice system in their rabid jihad against Trump.

To objective, experienced eyes, Alvin Bragg’s prosecution of Trump shocks the conscience.

Bragg is a Democrat who campaigned for office on the implied promise that he’d reprise his practice, as a top deputy in the state attorney general’s office, of using the legal process to hound Trump. For that, New Yorkers elected him — just as they’ve twice elected Letitia James based on her now-fulfilled vow to exploit state power against the Democrats’ archnemesis. The decay here is not just legal; it’s cultural.

Such a dog’s breakfast of a case is the “hush money” caper that even Bragg shut it down in 2022 as beneath him. He revived it for two reasons having nothing to do with law and everything to do with politics: The equally ambitious Tish James was lauded by the party’s hard-left base for filing a civil lawsuit against Trump based on the fraud evidence that Bragg, prudently, had opted against charging criminally; and it became clear that Trump would again seek the presidency — meaning that if Bragg could get the case indicted in 2023, he’d be able to push it to trial in the critical months before the 2024 election.

Bragg indicted based on a business-records statute that, as applied in this case, is unconstitutionally vague under New York’s constitution. He resorted to this penal provision because he was bereft of what any prosecutor even thinking about indicting a former president and de facto presidential nominee should have: a serious crime that would be charged against anyone, supported by clear, convincing evidence. Ergo, Bragg had to rely on caprice — which is page one in the selective-prosecution playbook.

The DA did not so much find a crime as manufacture one. But even in New York, where “Orange Man in orange jumpsuit” is a collective fever dream, Bragg had to labor in stealth. The best he could do, in reviving L’affaire Stormy, was to frame Trump’s tawdry NDAs and funky bookkeeping as a campaign-finance infraction. That was a problem, however, because Bragg is a state prosecutor who has no jurisdiction to enforce federal law — which is what controls elections for federal office. Plus, the two federal entities that Congress endowed with exclusive authority to prosecute Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA) violations, the Justice Department and the Federal Election Commission, had thoroughly investigated Trump and determined not to take action — precisely because the NDAs were not cognizable campaign expenditures (unless you think hush money for porn stars can properly be paid using campaign funds — and imagine what Bragg would have charged if Trump had done that).

The DA thus remained cagey and noncommittal about what underlying crime he was alleging Trump had committed. In this and other irregularities, the patently conflicted Judge Juan Merchan abetted the DA — its being no more proper for Merchan to entertain an action in enforcement of federal law than for Bragg to bring such an action in the first place.

One of Bragg’s layers of camouflage was New York election law. That was remarkable too: The provision on which he relied is also a misdemeanor — conspiracy to influence an election by unlawful means. Bragg couldn’t charge this offense, just as he couldn’t charge the business-records-falsification misdemeanor, because the two-year statute had lapsed by 2019. On Bragg/Merchan math, though, these two time-barred misdemeanors somehow added up to a felony with a six-year statute of limitations and a potential prison term of four years, which Bragg multiplied into 34 counts (136 years — though capped at 20 years under New York sentencing law).

Such legerdemain in a state prosecutorial scheme to enforce federal law is noteworthy. Had this been a federal prosecution, Justice Department guidelines would have barred Bragg from slicing a single, trivial, nonviolent offense into 34 counts. That’s the sort of sharp practice engaged in by unethical prosecutors, and it is especially unbecoming of those who pompously preen about rooting out public corruption. It is public corruption for a prosecutor to signal to the jury, in a nonviolent crime case trumped up, as it were, against a political foe, that the defendant must be a really bad guy if the government is throwing the book at him as if he were Osama bin Laden.

Then again, this wasn’t really a prosecutorial enforcement of federal law because Bragg and his sidekick-in-a-robe didn’t really apply FECA. They made up their own FECA.

That’s never been done before, for a very simple reason. The DOJ and FEC zealously guard their turf. If a state prosecutor had tried to enforce FECA against any defendant other than Trump — in particular, if a red-state DA tried invoking the Bragg rationale in order to indict a prominent Democrat — the Biden Justice Department would have gone on the warpath. Attorney General Merrick Garland’s prosecutors would have demanded that the federal courts shut the state enforcement effort down, just like they do when states try to enforce federal immigration law because Biden won’t. But in this case? Crickets.

When Trump rails that even the state prosecution of Biden’s 2024 opponent is Biden’s doing, he’s not wrong — even if the evidence of collusion is the DOJ dog that didn’t bark.

As Bragg played peekaboo regarding his enforcement of federal campaign law, Merchan ensured that actual federal law would not intrude. He denied Trump’s defense the right to call former FEC commissioner Bradley Smith, who would have explained that (a) the NDAs were not campaign expenditures, and (b) even if the Stormy NDA on which the business-records charges were based had been a campaign expenditure, there would have been no reporting obligation until after the election. That is to say, Bragg’s fairy tale that Trump stole the 2016 election by skirting FECA reporting requirements was utter fiction, in addition to being legal nonsense.

It is not enough to say Merchan kept Smith off the witness stand while allowing Cohen and Pecker to opine on federal campaign law, a matter regarding which they — like Bragg and Merchan — are out of their depth. The judge further invited prosecutors to tell the jury, again and again and again, that Cohen had pled guilty to FECA crimes and Pecker struck a non-prosecution agreement with the Justice Department because he feared FECA prosecution.

Merchan knew this evidence was inadmissible against Trump. In one of the more cynical exercises in judicial malfeasance you’ll ever see, however, Merchan purported to admit the evidence to help the jury “weigh the credibility” of Trump’s two associates. The judge was well aware that the guilty pleas and non-prosecution agreement did not bear on the credibility of these prosecution witnesses — that the defense did not want the evidence in the case and the prosecution was not remotely interested in impeaching its own key witnesses. Bragg wanted the evidence in the case for precisely the reason the law makes it inadmissible — to argue that Trump must be guilty because he directed the commission of these “crimes” that his associates admitted. It was Merchan’s job to protect Trump from prosecutorial abuse; instead, he assumed the role of undercover prosecutor.

So many times did Merchan allow Bragg’s prosecutors to stress Cohen’s guilty pleas and Pecker’s non-pros deal that the jury cannot have thought prosecutors actually had to prove the FECA offense. It was as if Merchan had taken judicial notice of it — like it was an established fact of the case, as undeniable as the sun’s rise in the east. In point of fact, there is no evidence of Trump’s intent to commit FECA crimes — or, indeed, that Trump gave a moment’s thought to FECA in 2016 when the NDAs were being negotiated or in 2017 when Cohen was being reimbursed.

That’s a gaping hole in Bragg’s case. Not to worry, though: Merchan filled it by declining to instruct the jury on willfulness, the state of mind that Bragg was supposed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in order to convict Trump.

As a whole, moreover, the jury instructions were a road map to conviction. En route, the jurors were told that they needn’t agree on what unlawful conduct Trump had engaged in to conspire to corrupt the election (which, remember, was not charged in the indictment). Rather, Merchan served up a menu of three Bragg theories — FECA, tax irregularities, and more business-records shenanigans — and told the jurors to pick any one they liked. As long as each juror found one, it wouldn’t matter if they all found the same one.

How can there be guilt beyond a reasonable doubt if the jury doesn’t agree on whether prosecutors have proved a key element of the case? Don’t ask such impertinent questions. And which one or ones of the menu items did the jurors pick? We’ll never know. Merchan dispensed with the routine procedure of jury interrogatories on this make-or-break issue in the first ever criminal prosecution of a former American president. Interrogatories, after all, would have documented the jury’s conclusions for appellate courts to review.

So even in the end, the defense doesn’t know what the jury found — which is nice symmetry since from the beginning the defense wasn’t told what Bragg was alleging. Trump wouldn’t have had a chance even if Merchan hadn’t invited the prosecutors to elicit Stormy Daniels’ graphic testimony of the sexual encounter she says she had with Trump in 2006 . . . and which she now intimates may have been nonconsensual (after years of saying otherwise). What on earth did that have to do with how the Trump organization booked NDA reimbursement payments to Cohen eleven years later? Clearly nothing, which is why a flustered Merchan admonished prosecutors for adducing the testimony he himself had green-lighted, and blamed defense lawyers for failing to object after he’d already overruled their motions to preclude this outrageously prejudicial testimony.

Needless to say, this testimony had nothing to do with vindicating the rule of law or stamping out public corruption. Manifestly, the point of the porn star’s testimony was to humiliate Trump. Manifestly, the point of the prosecution was to enable Joe Biden to call his opponent a convicted felon from now through November 5.

If you think this was a one-off, you’ve not only missed the last 15 years of what passes for law enforcement under both the progressive-prosecutor project in America’s big blue cities and — for most of that time — Democratic Party control of the Justice Department. You’ve missed over a century of American legal devolution, during which the law was reimagined into an extortionate weapon of social “progress,” due process devolved into punitive process, and bad precedents were inevitably exploited into monstrous precedents.

What happened in Manhattan was monstrous. The fallout is the antithesis of a constitutional republic that presumes innocence, imposes the burden of proof on the state, venerates its due-process rules, and guarantees equal protection of law. The antithesis is now the norm. Regardless of what happens to Donald Trump, all of us will live to regret it.

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...All of it from non-Trump supporters. I'm not debating this, further...I've already covered much of this, previously. Those that ignored it when I addressed it before will likely ignore it again. That's fine...my assumption is that all or most will be discussed on appeal.


1. In Memory of Justice (a bit lengthy, pasted below). The legal issues summarized are the most complete I've read. Everybody should read all of it, if interested.



2.

3.
It is funny. TDS is a hilarious acronym people made up because he inspires such hatred from folks. This trial was all about it. It gives me hope to see some will put their partisan views aside to be truthful. This isn’t the time to stack the deck to win. It is if you are desperate. This is a once in a lifetime possible event. A former president running for office again(that rarely happens) is being put on trial. The first time we do this as a country. The deck was stacked politically. In every single phase. No matter what happened verdict wise, there is no win here. Anyone defending this has a hole in the head filled with tds. It is just sad.


If this ever were to be done to a former president it should be beyond reproach. Iron clad.
 
...All of it from non-Trump supporters. I'm not debating this, further...I've already covered much of this, previously. Those that ignored it when I addressed it before will likely ignore it again. That's fine...my assumption is that all or most will be discussed on appeal.


1. In Memory of Justice (a bit lengthy, pasted below). The legal issues summarized are the most complete I've read. Everybody should read all of it, if interested.



2.

3.
 
...All of it from non-Trump supporters. I'm not debating this, further...I've already covered much of this, previously. Those that ignored it when I addressed it before will likely ignore it again. That's fine...my assumption is that all or most will be discussed on appeal.


1. In Memory of Justice (a bit lengthy, pasted below). The legal issues summarized are the most complete I've read. Everybody should read all of it, if interested.



2.

3.
I'll be honest and say that I'm not going to read this whole thing, mostly bc none of it really matters. It's not going to change anything one way or the other. Wealthy and powerful people have never really had to pay for their crimes. Madofff was the last real one to do it, but he robbed other rich people, that's what did him in.


But to the larger point, if anyone commits a crime, they should be held accountable. I don't care about who they are. You could probably make an argument for just about every president since at least and including FDR for some form of war crimes. It's just how our country operates. We use the military to expand political and economic power. That's been how the world has worked since the cave men saw another group of cavemen. You don't get to be the world super power without the use of violent force. My point in all of this is that Trump paying off a porn star pails in comparison to the multitude of war crimes that have been committed by the US president throughout American history. But the elephant in the room is that what Trump did different is that he attacked democracy. And to me, that's what he should be held accountable for. And I'm mostly talking to you here @Moosefish bc way too many on here don't see Jan 6 as an insurrection and an attack on the very principle of democratic freedom. They mostly see it as whatever they need it to be that day. Sometimes it's a civil protest, other times it's antifa and the Feds, but will still honor Ashley Babbit. It's a joke and a disgrace. The way we have casually let fascist and anti democratic rhetoric seep so smoothly into the main stream. The election wasn't stolen. In fact, the major news organizations that pushed that narrative all retracted their statements when forced to do so in a court of law. There is proof of Tucker Carlson admitting to lying about it to please his viewers bc if how unhinged they are.


My point is that trumps greatest crime isn't paying off a porn star, it was ruining any formal ability to discuss reality. He and the republican party have embraced fascism bc the cultural hegemony they have lost since really the Civil War. It was nothing but losses for the white Christian male hegemony after that. First they lost their slaves, then it was women gaining the right the vote, then abortion, and so on. I'd definitely agree that Trump is more of a symptom than a cause, but if this trail is what makes people give up hope in the American legal system they need to pick up a text book and read, and read, and read some more.


I'm trying to get multiple thoughts out at once so I apologize if my comment seems a bit rambley, but my point is that the Stormy Daniels trail is kind of unimportant and irrelevant. But Trump absolutely would be in jail if we lived in an aforementioned just nation. He has emboldened the Christian far right, whom many are on this board, to pass restrictions on women's and LGBT rights first, but they won't stop there. As @OriginalGatorHator was honest enough to admit previously they ultimately want to take us back to a precivil rights America, and they have the Supreme Court to do it. So I don't give a fuçk about some pointless trail when the rights and freedoms of more than half the country are currently under threat.
 
I'll be honest and say that I'm not going to read this whole thing, mostly bc none of it really matters. It's not going to change anything one way or the other. Wealthy and powerful people have never really had to pay for their crimes. Madofff was the last real one to do it, but he robbed other rich people, that's what did him in.


But to the larger point, if anyone commits a crime, they should be held accountable. I don't care about who they are. You could probably make an argument for just about every president since at least and including FDR for some form of war crimes. It's just how our country operates. We use the military to expand political and economic power. That's been how the world has worked since the cave men saw another group of cavemen. You don't get to be the world super power without the use of violent force. My point in all of this is that Trump paying off a porn star pails in comparison to the multitude of war crimes that have been committed by the US president throughout American history. But the elephant in the room is that what Trump did different is that he attacked democracy. And to me, that's what he should be held accountable for. And I'm mostly talking to you here @Moosefish bc way too many on here don't see Jan 6 as an insurrection and an attack on the very principle of democratic freedom. They mostly see it as whatever they need it to be that day. Sometimes it's a civil protest, other times it's antifa and the Feds, but will still honor Ashley Babbit. It's a joke and a disgrace. The way we have casually let fascist and anti democratic rhetoric seep so smoothly into the main stream. The election wasn't stolen. In fact, the major news organizations that pushed that narrative all retracted their statements when forced to do so in a court of law. There is proof of Tucker Carlson admitting to lying about it to please his viewers bc if how unhinged they are.


My point is that trumps greatest crime isn't paying off a porn star, it was ruining any formal ability to discuss reality. He and the republican party have embraced fascism bc the cultural hegemony they have lost since really the Civil War. It was nothing but losses for the white Christian male hegemony after that. First they lost their slaves, then it was women gaining the right the vote, then abortion, and so on. I'd definitely agree that Trump is more of a symptom than a cause, but if this trail is what makes people give up hope in the American legal system they need to pick up a text book and read, and read, and read some more.


I'm trying to get multiple thoughts out at once so I apologize if my comment seems a bit rambley, but my point is that the Stormy Daniels trail is kind of unimportant and irrelevant. But Trump absolutely would be in jail if we lived in an aforementioned just nation. He has emboldened the Christian far right, whom many are on this board, to pass restrictions on women's and LGBT rights first, but they won't stop there. As @OriginalGatorHator was honest enough to admit previously they ultimately want to take us back to a precivil rights America, and they have the Supreme Court to do it. So I don't give a fuçk about some pointless trail when the rights and freedoms of more than half the country are currently under threat.
TDS
 
I'll be honest and say that I'm not going to read this whole thing, mostly bc none of it really matters. It's not going to change anything one way or the other. Wealthy and powerful people have never really had to pay for their crimes. Madofff was the last real one to do it, but he robbed other rich people, that's what did him in.


But to the larger point, if anyone commits a crime, they should be held accountable. I don't care about who they are. You could probably make an argument for just about every president since at least and including FDR for some form of war crimes. It's just how our country operates. We use the military to expand political and economic power. That's been how the world has worked since the cave men saw another group of cavemen. You don't get to be the world super power without the use of violent force. My point in all of this is that Trump paying off a porn star pails in comparison to the multitude of war crimes that have been committed by the US president throughout American history. But the elephant in the room is that what Trump did different is that he attacked democracy. And to me, that's what he should be held accountable for. And I'm mostly talking to you here @Moosefish bc way too many on here don't see Jan 6 as an insurrection and an attack on the very principle of democratic freedom. They mostly see it as whatever they need it to be that day. Sometimes it's a civil protest, other times it's antifa and the Feds, but will still honor Ashley Babbit. It's a joke and a disgrace. The way we have casually let fascist and anti democratic rhetoric seep so smoothly into the main stream. The election wasn't stolen. In fact, the major news organizations that pushed that narrative all retracted their statements when forced to do so in a court of law. There is proof of Tucker Carlson admitting to lying about it to please his viewers bc if how unhinged they are.


My point is that trumps greatest crime isn't paying off a porn star, it was ruining any formal ability to discuss reality. He and the republican party have embraced fascism bc the cultural hegemony they have lost since really the Civil War. It was nothing but losses for the white Christian male hegemony after that. First they lost their slaves, then it was women gaining the right the vote, then abortion, and so on. I'd definitely agree that Trump is more of a symptom than a cause, but if this trail is what makes people give up hope in the American legal system they need to pick up a text book and read, and read, and read some more.


I'm trying to get multiple thoughts out at once so I apologize if my comment seems a bit rambley, but my point is that the Stormy Daniels trail is kind of unimportant and irrelevant. But Trump absolutely would be in jail if we lived in an aforementioned just nation. He has emboldened the Christian far right, whom many are on this board, to pass restrictions on women's and LGBT rights first, but they won't stop there. As @OriginalGatorHator was honest enough to admit previously they ultimately want to take us back to a precivil rights America, and they have the Supreme Court to do it. So I don't give a fuçk about some pointless trail when the rights and freedoms of more than half the country are currently under threat.
You are either to biased or too dense to see it happening on both sides. It wasn’t a crime it was fabricated by vindictive people against an arrogant jackass. Because he is arrogant and ticks people off doesn’t make it right. Far worse things have taken place by other presidents and Reps that were not worthy of a trial. Both sides are pushing the envelope(with the help of social media) to sensationalize and distort facts so most people do not know the truth. They believe what they want to and are unable to remove emotion from the equation. And now our country is spiraling out of control.
 
I literally said this in my comment and how this trial is ultimately meaningless.
My point in all of this is that Trump paying off a porn star pails in comparison to the multitude of war crimes that have been committed by the US president throughout American history. But the elephant in the room is that what Trump did different is that he attacked democracy.

You are either to biased or too dense to see it happening on both sides. It wasn’t a crime it was fabricated by vindictive people against an arrogant jackass. Because he is arrogant and ticks people off doesn’t make it right. Far worse things have taken place by other presidents and Reps that were not worthy of a trial. Both sides are pushing the envelope(with the help of social media) to sensationalize and distort facts so most people do not know the truth. They believe what they want to and are unable to remove emotion from the equation. And now our country is spiraling out of control.
Right here
 
I'll be honest and say that I'm not going to read this whole thing, mostly bc none of it really matters. It's not going to change anything one way or the other. Wealthy and powerful people have never really had to pay for their crimes. Madofff was the last real one to do it, but he robbed other rich people, that's what did him in.


But to the larger point, if anyone commits a crime, they should be held accountable. I don't care about who they are. You could probably make an argument for just about every president since at least and including FDR for some form of war crimes. It's just how our country operates. We use the military to expand political and economic power. That's been how the world has worked since the cave men saw another group of cavemen. You don't get to be the world super power without the use of violent force. My point in all of this is that Trump paying off a porn star pails in comparison to the multitude of war crimes that have been committed by the US president throughout American history. But the elephant in the room is that what Trump did different is that he attacked democracy. And to me, that's what he should be held accountable for. And I'm mostly talking to you here @Moosefish bc way too many on here don't see Jan 6 as an insurrection and an attack on the very principle of democratic freedom. They mostly see it as whatever they need it to be that day. Sometimes it's a civil protest, other times it's antifa and the Feds, but will still honor Ashley Babbit. It's a joke and a disgrace. The way we have casually let fascist and anti democratic rhetoric seep so smoothly into the main stream. The election wasn't stolen. In fact, the major news organizations that pushed that narrative all retracted their statements when forced to do so in a court of law. There is proof of Tucker Carlson admitting to lying about it to please his viewers bc if how unhinged they are.


My point is that trumps greatest crime isn't paying off a porn star, it was ruining any formal ability to discuss reality. He and the republican party have embraced fascism bc the cultural hegemony they have lost since really the Civil War. It was nothing but losses for the white Christian male hegemony after that. First they lost their slaves, then it was women gaining the right the vote, then abortion, and so on. I'd definitely agree that Trump is more of a symptom than a cause, but if this trail is what makes people give up hope in the American legal system they need to pick up a text book and read, and read, and read some more.


I'm trying to get multiple thoughts out at once so I apologize if my comment seems a bit rambley, but my point is that the Stormy Daniels trail is kind of unimportant and irrelevant. But Trump absolutely would be in jail if we lived in an aforementioned just nation. He has emboldened the Christian far right, whom many are on this board, to pass restrictions on women's and LGBT rights first, but they won't stop there. As @OriginalGatorHator was honest enough to admit previously they ultimately want to take us back to a precivil rights America, and they have the Supreme Court to do it. So I don't give a fuçk about some pointless trail when the rights and freedoms of more than half the country are currently under threat.
You should have read it.

Explain the acts of Trump that support your fascism claims and compare and contrast that to Biden's student loan relief or his failure to enforce immigration law, or the acts every president since Kennedy who issued EOs absent an emergency or used our military without congressional authorization.
 
You should have read it.

Explain the acts of Trump that support your fascism claims and compare and contrast that to Biden's student loan relief or his failure to enforce immigration law, or the acts every president since Kennedy who issued EOs absent an emergency or used our military without congressional authorization.
1. Lol @ student loan relief.

2. I said in my original comment that way worse than paying off a porn star has happened. So I'm done responding to this point bc it was literally one of my main arguments.

3. I have no issue in arguing fascism with you. No way a productive conversation could be had when you're comparing it to student load relief and immigration. Only reason I brought it up is bc I Moose can have a reasonable discussion about it. You probably think the Nazis were left wing. I just don't have interest in arguing with the type of shit on the internet.

This is again, consistent with my original comment.

And I'm mostly talking to you here @Moosefish
If you want to talk fascism, prove you can by at least defining it.
 
...All of it from non-Trump supporters. I'm not debating this, further...I've already covered much of this, previously. Those that ignored it when I addressed it before will likely ignore it again. That's fine...my assumption is that all or most will be discussed on appeal.


1. In Memory of Justice (a bit lengthy, pasted below). The legal issues summarized are the most complete I've read. Everybody should read all of it, if interested.



2.

3.
nice synopsis, you'd think that the odds are definitely in Trump's favor that this is overturned.....and hopefully, those that conspired all of this are made to pay. that is when real justice is done, but I ain't holding my breath.
 
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1. Lol @ student loan relief.

2. I said in my original comment that way worse than paying off a porn star has happened. So I'm done responding to this point bc it was literally one of my main arguments.

3. I have no issue in arguing fascism with you. No way a productive conversation could be had when you're comparing it to student load relief and immigration. Only reason I brought it up is bc I Moose can have a reasonable discussion about it. You probably think the Nazis were left wing. I just don't have interest in arguing with the type of shit on the internet.

This is again, consistent with my original comment.


If you want to talk fascism, prove you can by at least defining it.
Well, the first thing you need is a dictator and Trump didn't even have full control of the Republican party or even his own staff. If Trump had been a fascist dictator, some of the "anonymous sources" would have been thrown into a pit of hungry pit bulls.

Next, you need state control of private businesses and Trump was the most deregulating federalist we've had in office since Reagan.

Trump actually tried to overturn the closest thing to a fascist takeover of about 1/4 of the private economy (ACA) but was foiled by, you guessed it, 3 Pubs in the Senate. (So much for being a authoritarian dictator)

Trump actually fought lower court rulings that retarded his constitutional authority during the "Muslim ban" and to close the border by appealing those decisions. He didn't do things like unilaterally creating DACA which directly conflicted current federal law after admitting he didn't have the authority or continuing to grant loan relief after the SCOTUS ruled against the scheme.

Then you start a list of things fascist dictators do and Trump's desire to enforce immigration laws as written seems to destroy any statement that Trump is a fascist.

Fascist dictators are known for disarming the public.

Fascist dictators are known for using the power of the government to silence the press. They don't argue with the press.

Fascist dictators upend the rule of law as the law becomes their wishes, not 200 yrs of legal history.

Fascist use their power to create wealth for themselves and their cronies and fascist tend to be more into corporatism and not advocates of small businesses and capitalism.

Trump is a lot of things but the idea that he is a fascist is completely absurd.
 
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Today’s novel legal theory becomes tomorrow’s precedent. Conservative jurists have used that thought process for years. See overturning Roe as an example. But when liberals use the concept it somehow becomes overreaching.
 
A Simple definition of Fascism per Merriam-Webster - specific way of organizing a society: under fascism, a government ruled by a dictator controls the lives of the people in that society, and allows no dissent or disagreement.
 
1. Lol @ student loan relief.

2. I said in my original comment that way worse than paying off a porn star has happened. So I'm done responding to this point bc it was literally one of my main arguments.

3. I have no issue in arguing fascism with you. No way a productive conversation could be had when you're comparing it to student load relief and immigration. Only reason I brought it up is bc I Moose can have a reasonable discussion about it. You probably think the Nazis were left wing. I just don't have interest in arguing with the type of shit on the internet.

This is again, consistent with my original comment.


If you want to talk fascism, prove you can by at least defining it.
I may disagree with you on a lot of points. I do appreciate you venturing here to debate. No matter how incredibly wrong I can find your post, you present your argument with intelligence and class. Need more of this. The same way moose presented to start the thread. Intelligence and class.

I would jump in because you do a good job of presenting your points, but I can’t respond any better than moose, Todd or dirty have already. So I am saying thank you for your point of view.
 
I may disagree with you on a lot of points. I do appreciate you venturing here to debate. No matter how incredibly wrong I can find your post, you present your argument with intelligence and class. Need more of this. The same way moose presented to start the thread. Intelligence and class.

I would jump in because you do a good job of presenting your points, but I can’t respond any better than moose, Todd or dirty have already. So I am saying thank you for your point of view.
I usually will give the same venom you give to me. If you're respectful, I'll be respectful. If you just say TDS, I'll probably be a dick back
 
You are either to biased or too dense to see it happening on both sides. It wasn’t a crime it was fabricated by vindictive people against an arrogant jackass. Because he is arrogant and ticks people off doesn’t make it right. Far worse things have taken place by other presidents and Reps that were not worthy of a trial. Both sides are pushing the envelope(with the help of social media) to sensationalize and distort facts so most people do not know the truth. They believe what they want to and are unable to remove emotion from the equation. And now our country is spiraling out of control.
If anyone argues with the last half of your post, I will beg to differ. Just look at the Biden/de niro ad. It is rife with complete fabrications and out of context phrases used by Trump. Played for the politically stupid. It is ironic, but it feels like an ad you would see a campaign on a sitcom run. Like an episode of benson has just begun.
 
I'll be honest and say that I'm not going to read this whole thing, mostly bc none of it really matters. It's not going to change anything one way or the other. Wealthy and powerful people have never really had to pay for their crimes. Madofff was the last real one to do it, but he robbed other rich people, that's what did him in.


But to the larger point, if anyone commits a crime, they should be held accountable. I don't care about who they are. You could probably make an argument for just about every president since at least and including FDR for some form of war crimes. It's just how our country operates. We use the military to expand political and economic power. That's been how the world has worked since the cave men saw another group of cavemen. You don't get to be the world super power without the use of violent force. My point in all of this is that Trump paying off a porn star pails in comparison to the multitude of war crimes that have been committed by the US president throughout American history. But the elephant in the room is that what Trump did different is that he attacked democracy. And to me, that's what he should be held accountable for. And I'm mostly talking to you here @Moosefish bc way too many on here don't see Jan 6 as an insurrection and an attack on the very principle of democratic freedom. They mostly see it as whatever they need it to be that day. Sometimes it's a civil protest, other times it's antifa and the Feds, but will still honor Ashley Babbit. It's a joke and a disgrace. The way we have casually let fascist and anti democratic rhetoric seep so smoothly into the main stream. The election wasn't stolen. In fact, the major news organizations that pushed that narrative all retracted their statements when forced to do so in a court of law. There is proof of Tucker Carlson admitting to lying about it to please his viewers bc if how unhinged they are.


My point is that trumps greatest crime isn't paying off a porn star, it was ruining any formal ability to discuss reality. He and the republican party have embraced fascism bc the cultural hegemony they have lost since really the Civil War. It was nothing but losses for the white Christian male hegemony after that. First they lost their slaves, then it was women gaining the right the vote, then abortion, and so on. I'd definitely agree that Trump is more of a symptom than a cause, but if this trail is what makes people give up hope in the American legal system they need to pick up a text book and read, and read, and read some more.


I'm trying to get multiple thoughts out at once so I apologize if my comment seems a bit rambley, but my point is that the Stormy Daniels trail is kind of unimportant and irrelevant. But Trump absolutely would be in jail if we lived in an aforementioned just nation. He has emboldened the Christian far right, whom many are on this board, to pass restrictions on women's and LGBT rights first, but they won't stop there. As @OriginalGatorHator was honest enough to admit previously they ultimately want to take us back to a precivil rights America, and they have the Supreme Court to do it. So I don't give a fuçk about some pointless trail when the rights and freedoms of more than half the country are currently under threat.
not reading this
cliffs please
 
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I'll be honest and say that I'm not going to read this whole thing, mostly bc none of it really matters. It's not going to change anything one way or the other. Wealthy and powerful people have never really had to pay for their crimes. Madofff was the last real one to do it, but he robbed other rich people, that's what did him in.


But to the larger point, if anyone commits a crime, they should be held accountable. I don't care about who they are. You could probably make an argument for just about every president since at least and including FDR for some form of war crimes. It's just how our country operates. We use the military to expand political and economic power. That's been how the world has worked since the cave men saw another group of cavemen. You don't get to be the world super power without the use of violent force. My point in all of this is that Trump paying off a porn star pails in comparison to the multitude of war crimes that have been committed by the US president throughout American history. But the elephant in the room is that what Trump did different is that he attacked democracy. And to me, that's what he should be held accountable for. And I'm mostly talking to you here @Moosefish bc way too many on here don't see Jan 6 as an insurrection and an attack on the very principle of democratic freedom. They mostly see it as whatever they need it to be that day. Sometimes it's a civil protest, other times it's antifa and the Feds, but will still honor Ashley Babbit. It's a joke and a disgrace. The way we have casually let fascist and anti democratic rhetoric seep so smoothly into the main stream. The election wasn't stolen. In fact, the major news organizations that pushed that narrative all retracted their statements when forced to do so in a court of law. There is proof of Tucker Carlson admitting to lying about it to please his viewers bc if how unhinged they are.


My point is that trumps greatest crime isn't paying off a porn star, it was ruining any formal ability to discuss reality. He and the republican party have embraced fascism bc the cultural hegemony they have lost since really the Civil War. It was nothing but losses for the white Christian male hegemony after that. First they lost their slaves, then it was women gaining the right the vote, then abortion, and so on. I'd definitely agree that Trump is more of a symptom than a cause, but if this trail is what makes people give up hope in the American legal system they need to pick up a text book and read, and read, and read some more.


I'm trying to get multiple thoughts out at once so I apologize if my comment seems a bit rambley, but my point is that the Stormy Daniels trail is kind of unimportant and irrelevant. But Trump absolutely would be in jail if we lived in an aforementioned just nation. He has emboldened the Christian far right, whom many are on this board, to pass restrictions on women's and LGBT rights first, but they won't stop there. As @OriginalGatorHator was honest enough to admit previously they ultimately want to take us back to a precivil rights America, and they have the Supreme Court to do it. So I don't give a fuçk about some pointless trail when the rights and freedoms of more than half the country are currently under threat.
1. I think you should read it, as it is thorough and describes where the law was twisted. Plus, McCarthy is clearly not pro-Trump, as the beginning of the piece details.

2. Believing that a person did one thing is a very bad reason to pervert the justice system to "get them" for something else. If equal application of the law says they are guilty of something, fine. But, this is not how to our system should work and I'm afraid of the pendulum swing when it inevitably wrecks everything in it's return path.

3. I disagree with some of what you wrote above, but my feelings are very similar to zinger's when he describes his feelings on Trump & this election.

Both parties need to generate better candidates.
 
Today’s novel legal theory becomes tomorrow’s precedent. Conservative jurists have used that thought process for years. See overturning Roe as an example. But when liberals use the concept it somehow becomes overreaching.
RBG wasn't a fan of the legal theory that codified RvW and thought it was faulty legal ground even though she was an avid supporter of abortion.

https://www.law.uchicago.edu/news/j...s-critique-roe-v-wade-during-law-school-visit

I'm not a abortion activist and I'm perfectly fine with the abortion laws in France for example even though I think the practice is closer to barbaric than just. I also believe unregulated abortion after the time a fetus becomes able to live outside of the host with only basic care should have been challenged and human rights extended to the voiceless human. I think everyone is in agreement that cases wrongly decided can and should be reviewed. (Thank God or Plessy v Ferguson would still be U.S. law)

Courts reviewing courts is a good thing. Those charged with enforcing laws acting outside of the law is always a cause for concern. We should never devolve into a show me the man, I'll show you the crime system because that is truly an attack on our system of government.
 
1. Lol @ student loan relief.

2. I said in my original comment that way worse than paying off a porn star has happened. So I'm done responding to this point bc it was literally one of my main arguments.

3. I have no issue in arguing fascism with you. No way a productive conversation could be had when you're comparing it to student load relief and immigration. Only reason I brought it up is bc I Moose can have a reasonable discussion about it. You probably think the Nazis were left wing. I just don't have interest in arguing with the type of shit on the internet.

This is again, consistent with my original comment.


If you want to talk fascism, prove you can by at least defining it.
You understand student debt forgiveness is simply a transfer of the obligation to the taxpayers, right? More importantly, as it relates to your fascism claim, you understand that SCOTUS said he can't do it, but he's doing it anyway, right? In fact, Biden brags about how he is defying SCOTUS.

Imagine Trump (or any GOP) doing that. Maybe you should invest in a dictionary so you can look up the definition of a fascist.
 
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1. I think you should read it, as it is thorough and describes where the law was twisted. Plus, McCarthy is clearly not pro-Trump, as the beginning of the piece details.

2. Believing that a person did one thing is a very bad reason to pervert the justice system to "get them" for something else. If equal application of the law says they are guilty of something, fine. But, this is not how to our system should work and I'm afraid of the pendulum swing when it inevitably wrecks everything in it's return path.

3. I disagree with some of what you wrote above, but my feelings are very similar to zinger's when he describes his feelings on Trump & this election.

Both parties need to generate better candidates.
How are we supposed to take seriously the heartfelt lament for the degradation of the rule of law, which McCarthy attributes primarily to progressivism, when the primary victim of this supposed unfair prosecution has aggressively undermined the rule of law in multiple instances and as a matter of practice?

Lies about election fraud have undermined the rule of law.

Trump has aggressively undermined public faith in the federal government in general and the DOJ and FBI specifically.

Trump’s role in J6 undermined the rule of law.

And Trump’s lauding of the J6 criminals as heroes and patriots undermines the rule of law. His promises to pardon violent felons who stormed the Capitol for his benefit would be the single most impactful undermining of the rule of law by any president in our history.

Is the fact that so many of Trump’s advisors been convicted of felonies and that Trump pardoned many of them relevant to a discussion of the rule of law?

What about the fact that the entire Trump election legal team is under felony indictment or have already pled guilty and are all on the way to being disbarred? What does that say about the rule of law.

The recent case has issue and employed same novel legal theories. It may in part or whole be overturned on appeal, although I’ve seen otherwise sober legal commentators state that the case ended up being significantly stronger than they had anticipated going into the trial. But expending that many words about the deterioration of the rule of law without bothering to mention the unprecedented contribution of DJT to that deterioration makes it easy to dismiss the comments of McCarty as biased and partisan in nature.
 
Are you trying to say that the law has been unfair to Donald J. Trump?

In the aggregate?
I'm unsure I follow your Q. The *law* isn't unfair, but how it's being applied is clearly unfair, targeted and un-American. I encourage you to read Dershowitz, Gerogas, McCarthy (who actually is a former prosecutor) and a host of other leading criminal defense attorneys. Dersh says it's the worst case he's seen in his 60 years in law, and he's a self described liberal Dem who will never vote for Trump.

Let's play a game. Pick a black person. Any black person. Apply the law differently to that person than to any white, Hispanic, Asian, etc. Gimme your thoughts.
 
Well, the first thing you need is a dictator and Trump didn't even have full control of the Republican party or even his own staff. If Trump had been a fascist dictator, some of the "anonymous sources" would have been thrown into a pit of hungry pit bulls.

Next, you need state control of private businesses and Trump was the most deregulating federalist we've had in office since Reagan.

Trump actually tried to overturn the closest thing to a fascist takeover of about 1/4 of the private economy (ACA) but was foiled by, you guessed it, 3 Pubs in the Senate. (So much for being a authoritarian dictator)

Trump actually fought lower court rulings that retarded his constitutional authority during the "Muslim ban" and to close the border by appealing those decisions. He didn't do things like unilaterally creating DACA which directly conflicted current federal law after admitting he didn't have the authority or continuing to grant loan relief after the SCOTUS ruled against the scheme.

Then you start a list of things fascist dictators do and Trump's desire to enforce immigration laws as written seems to destroy any statement that Trump is a fascist.

Fascist dictators are known for disarming the public.

Fascist dictators are known for using the power of the government to silence the press. They don't argue with the press.

Fascist dictators upend the rule of law as the law becomes their wishes, not 200 yrs of legal history.

Fascist use their power to create wealth for themselves and their cronies and fascist tend to be more into corporatism and not advocates of small businesses and capitalism.

Trump is a lot of things but the idea that he is a fascist is completely absurd.
Ok, so there is a lot to unpack here. Some things I agree with, others I don't, and there are a lot of half truths.

To start with, what I mean by half truths is a lot of these are representative of fascists regimes, but the only thing I would argue is primarily reflective of fascism is the corporatism element. It's either a blending of the state and the corporations or the two corrupting each other. So I agree there. But most of my disagreement is from most of what you are citing is just authoritarianism. From communism, to fascism, to absolute monarchy, all of them suppress dissent. Fascism isn't an umbrella term for authoritarianism, it's a particular kind. Fascism and communism are not the same.


Where I think you're missing is HOW fascist operate. At its core its a reactionary right wing movement that is opposed to liberalism and modernity. That's why things like modern art vs classical art can be parts of it. But where I claim Trump, but more importantly the republican party as fascist is the way they using things like LGBT rights, immigration, women's rights as division points against the current system that's typically already in a crisis to obstruct democratic norms with the ultimate goal of a dictatorship. One doesn't have to be a functional dictator to be a fascist. Was Hitler a fascist before he was appointed chancellor?

There are gray lines for everything, and immigration reform isn't directly fascist, but immigration is always a talking point for them. Bc it has to involve an in group out group propaganda effort to create the ferver necessary to abuse the system the way the want to.

One other key detail is a drive to bring back society to some mythologized glory days. Mussolini with Rome, Hitler with the third Reich, etc. And the republican party, way more at the state level for now, is trying to reverse the civil rights victories of the last century. They're pigging back off of Trump, who I think is just a raging narcissistic only interested in him, to achieve that. Do you agree with gay rights? Trans rights? Abortion rights? What do you think sa women's role in the home is? Do you believe in no fault divorce? What about black peoples roles in society? Does it get you upset that they speak their mind on political issues when they are famous athletes? What about protest movements against police brutality?


These are the issues I mean, a SC Justice already said they want to reverse the rights of gay people to get married, plenty of states want to make it illegal for grown adults to get gender affirming surgery. It starts there, then they'll go after the next group. Likely women. That's my issue more than anything, it's the attack on human rights at the state level that's already started. And the biggest area where we, as in me vs a lot of people here, is that yall agree with these things. I could go on forever but I'm on my phone and don't want to argue politics all day. I could talk forever about my opinions on American history and how and why we are here today. I think we all agree we're heading towards some form of crisis of leadership, of which Trump is not the cause, but these are the exact types of environments where strong men take over promising to fix things and ultimately destroy everything.
 
How are we supposed to take seriously the heartfelt lament for the degradation of the rule of law, which McCarthy attributes primarily to progressivism, when the primary victim of this supposed unfair prosecution has aggressively undermined the rule of law in multiple instances and as a matter of practice?

Lies about election fraud have undermined the rule of law.

Trump has aggressively undermined public faith in the federal government in general and the DOJ and FBI specifically.

Trump’s role in J6 undermined the rule of law.

And Trump’s lauding of the J6 criminals as heroes and patriots undermines the rule of law. His promises to pardon violent felons who stormed the Capitol for his benefit would be the single most impactful undermining of the rule of law by any president in our history.

Is the fact that so many of Trump’s advisors been convicted of felonies and that Trump pardoned many of them relevant to a discussion of the rule of law?

What about the fact that the entire Trump election legal team is under felony indictment or have already pled guilty and are all on the way to being disbarred? What does that say about the rule of law.

The recent case has issue and employed same novel legal theories. It may in part or whole be overturned on appeal, although I’ve seen otherwise sober legal commentators state that the case ended up being significantly stronger than they had anticipated going into the trial. But expending that many words about the deterioration of the rule of law without bothering to mention the unprecedented contribution of DJT to that deterioration makes it easy to dismiss the comments of McCarty as biased and partisan in nature.
Why do you keep at it? Nobody is changing their mind. Ppl either believe J6 or they don't. And even if they do, many if not most see the different application of the law and how the MSM treats Ds differently than Rs.
 
Law unfair ?????……no. But things were “rigged”/manipulated imo.
is that really your opinion, though? how did you form it?

Trump, his surrogates, Fox News, etc. call literally everything that doesn't go his way, "rigged." He repeats it like a clock chimes on every hour on the hour... and sometimes in between when you bump into it. All of his various grievances have been almost universally proven not to be at all rigged.

If anything, everything has been rigged in his favor all his life.
 
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is that really your opinion, though? how did you form it?

Trump calls literally everything that doesn't go his way, "rigged." He repeats it like a clock chimes on every hour on the hour... and those things have been almost unilaterally proven not to be at all rigged.
He does (repeat), but in this case he is right imo. Pretty dang sure I would do the same if I were in his shoes.

If/when it gets to appellate court, reasonably sure it all will be proven. The “law” will eventually work, can’t “rigg” them all.

If it is upheld, that would be another story.
 
I got an A in reading comprehensive in the 5th grade. I think my education is just fine
Wasn't mean lack of knowledge. It is very educating/educational to read what the OP posted. I found it very good for my education on the Orange Man trial and charges.
 
If it is upheld, that would be another story.
so, wait - you are saying that if the state supreme court reviews the case and decides it has merit and upholds the conviction you would think it "rigged"?

based on the opinions of couple lawyers-turned-pundit?
 
And the republican party, way more at the state level for now, is trying to reverse the civil rights victories of the last century. They're pigging back off of Trump, who I think is just a raging narcissistic only interested in him, to achieve that. Do you agree with gay rights? Trans rights? Abortion rights? What do you think sa women's role in the home is? Do you believe in no fault divorce? What about black peoples roles in society? Does it get you upset that they speak their mind on political issues when they are famous athletes? What about protest movements against police brutality?

I, nor anyone I know, is against equal rights/protection under the law. Iows, I don't care if a murder and the victim is any combination of race, creed, sexual orientation, blah, blah, blah, I believe each individual should be treated the same under our laws. Does a black man that beats a 70 yr old white man to death in the streets hate that white man any less than a skinhead that attacks a Jew? In the case of violent crime and especially unprovoked violent crime, I think we all deserve to be protected as if a hate crime was committed.

And no, I don't get upset when anyone uses their fame to draw and audience to express their views. I also don't think someone is hateful or racist if they peacefully voice their opposition. So, I don't care if it's Doc Rivers, Lebron James or Steve Kerr making a political statement, I just don't want someone to be called hateful, xenophobic or racist if they voice a disagreement.

Finally, I think your criticism of Pubs is why Trump beat 16 seasoned pols in the first place. The Dems and the Pub party have moved towards globalist corporatism at the expense of the folks that own repair shops and Ace Hardware stores around the nation. If you thought NAFTA wasn't working out so well, immigration should be legal, robust but well managed according to U.S. law or allowing China to rip, replicate and replace our patented products and intellectual property was a horrible idea, Trump was about the only place to turn. So, if you want to point towards fascist behavior and want to include Dems and neocons, I'll completely agree but Trump is the antithesis of a fascist. He is literally a deregulator and free market capitalist.
 
so, wait - you are saying that if the state supreme court reviews the case and decides it has merit and upholds the conviction you would think it "rigged"?

based on the opinions of couple lawyers-turned-pundit

Wasn’t there for the trial and pretty sure you were not either.

But to answer your question I failed respond to in another post (how I formed my opinion).

In short, a little deductive reasoning. You can try reading the article that was linked from the OP. I have also posted similar concerns before.

Based on what I have read, there are still questions, IE:

1) the timing of it all.
2) the judge himself (politically) his daughter (monetarily speaking).
3) the gag order.
4) this was a state case right??…if so, why are they hearing something on a federal charge?
5) a key witness wasn’t allowed for the defense.
6) the statue of limitations have expired.
7) the prosecutor DC sent.
8) the statement that Daniels signed that denied everything then changes her mind (hush money)
9) the convicted liar that testified.
10) Daniels credibility.
11) Also, believe I heard today that the DA from NY visited Biden at the WH before all of this started.

Plenty of doubt for me (fair trial).

All of this is just off the top of my head, I am sure there are more questions if I thought about it a little long enough and researched it…but I’m not, it is what it is for now.

Not a legal expert, but believe there is enough doubt for it to be heard again under different circumstances (“rigged”)…..and there are legal experts that are questioning some of the same things I am.

But that is why we have an appeals court. I believe our legal system will eventually work and he will get an appeal. Everyone deserves that, it’s why it’s in place.

But to answer your question just now. If the decision is upheld by the appellate court, more than likely no, I would not think it’s rigged.

Like someone said above, I wish we had two different candidates, but we don’t…..but what we have, Trump is the better of the two and he deserves to be treated fairly in all of this.

Let the legal process work, I believe in it.
 
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I, nor anyone I know, is against equal rights/protection under the law. Iows, I don't care if a murder and the victim is any combination of race, creed, sexual orientation, blah, blah, blah, I believe each individual should be treated the same under our laws. Does a black man that beats a 70 yr old white man to death in the streets hate that white man any less than a skinhead that attacks a Jew? In the case of violent crime and especially unprovoked violent crime, I think we all deserve to be protected as if a hate crime was committed.
I wasn't really talking about hate crime laws. I, personally, have no issue with them, but not enough to argue about it.


And no, I don't get upset when anyone uses their fame to draw and audience to express their views. I also don't think someone is hateful or racist if they peacefully voice their opposition. So, I don't care if it's Doc Rivers, Lebron James or Steve Kerr making a political statement, I just don't want someone to be called hateful, xenophobic or racist if they voice a disagreement.
While you may not mind, many do.
Finally, I think your criticism of Pubs is why Trump beat 16 seasoned pols in the first place. The Dems and the Pub party have moved towards globalist corporatism at the expense of the folks that own repair shops and Ace Hardware stores around the nation
I didn't even talk about these issues at all. I actually agree it's a massive problem. Trump is far from the solution.


So, if you want to point towards fascist behavior and want to include Dems and neocons, I'll completely agree but Trump is the antithesis of a fascist. He is literally a deregulator and free market capitalist.
It's about way more than the economy and you kind passed over a lot of my points. You only refuted points I didn't make like hate crimes and market globalization. Btw, deregulations only encourage this more. Big business selling the middle class out loves deregulations.


But yea, you didn't really respond to what I said. Like the unique characteristics of fascism that differentiate between other forms of authoritarianism. You just defended points I never made and ignored multiple characteristics of fascism that I pointed out
 
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I usually will give the same venom you give to me. If you're respectful, I'll be respectful. If you just say TDS, I'll probably be a dick back
The last part of the definition provided above is exactly Brandon admin and the dim party. Enough said vote against tyranny, vote Trump.
 
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My point is that trumps greatest crime isn't paying off a porn star, it was ruining any formal ability to discuss reality.
Maybe you are looking in the wrong place because it is the other side thinks men can get pregnant, men should be allowed in girl locker rooms, late term abortions are worth fighting for, white skin should be discriminated against, and open borders are great.
 
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He has emboldened the Christian far right, whom many are on this board, to pass restrictions on women's and LGBT rights first, but they won't stop there. As @OriginalGatorHator was honest enough to admit previously they ultimately want to take us back to a precivil rights America, and they have the Supreme Court to do it. So I don't give a fuçk about some pointless trail when the rights and freedoms of more than half the country are currently under threat.
Breaking news Christians believe the Bible.

Frankly, I'll settle for undoing the 1964 Civil Rights Act but would prefer a return to pre French Revolution norms
 
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