Now even a NY Times piece says masks did not work. Another thing some of us said in advance would not work yet...

[RoyDawgMercer]

Doctors rarely wear masks when they examine you. Why is that?

Not mine. They and their staffs all do. Just had an OP procedure 2 weeks ago and everyone in the place were masked. Ditto all in the adjacent hospital. I don’t GAS if someone wants to roll the dice… but don’t attempt to tell me trained / highly educated professionals are all wrong.

 

[Moosefish]

Bullshit. Guess all my docs … from Harvard, Princeton, Johns Hopkins, Emory, GMC, don’t know shit? Next time YOU have surgery tell ‘em not to mask up. Laughable post no matter the source.

Apparently not, since the research was done & peer reviewed by experts from those same or similar institutions.

And who said anything about masking up before surgery? Besides, that's not to protect themselves or their patients from viruses.

What's "laughable" is refusing to change your opinion when faced with overwhelming evidence.

 

[Moosefish]

Not mine. They and their staffs all do. Just had an OP procedure 2 weeks ago and everyone in the place were masked. Ditto all in the adjacent hospital. I don’t GAS if someone wants to roll the dice… but don’t attempt to tell me trained / highly educated professionals are all wrong.

Maybe they hadn't seen or read the just-released data? "Experts" also used to drill holes in people to release "evil spirits" until the science changed. That's what intelligent people do...not cling to ineffective practices for no good reason.

 

[WyoDawg307]

Yeah but please don't blame the people of Ukraine or elsewhere in Eastern Europe for their silliness.

I am not - at all - on board with the section of conservatives bashing on support for Ukraine. Plenty of reasons for that but won't clog the net here with that. Just that there is no connection between the 2 issues.

Huh? These are the same people most influenced by the propaganda and of weak minds. One and the same. And they will be first in line to virtue signal "the next thing", so it IS relatable.

I feel just as much for the people of Ukraine as I do all the people that were killed due to our government in Syria, Libya, the rest of the Middle East and in Central/South American countries and SE Asia from US led coups.

And I am no conservative - just a libertarian with nobody to vote for.

Plus, we knew we were right all along, but so what? The other side will never admit it. Just as nobody will ever admit the Ukraine issue is 100% garbage and completely pointless.

 

[BigDaddyDawgBreath]

Huh? These are the same people most influenced by the propaganda and of weak minds. One and the same. And they will be first in line to virtue signal "the next thing", so it IS relatable.

I feel just as much for the people of Ukraine as I do all the people that were killed due to our government in Syria, Libya, the rest of the Middle East and in Central/South American countries and SE Asia from US led coups.

And I am no conservative - just a libertarian with nobody to vote for.

Plus, we knew we were right all along, but so what? The other side will never admit it. Just as nobody will ever admit the Ukraine issue is 100% garbage and completely pointless.

1. They may not admit they are wrong but that doesn't mean everyone else can't come to understand it and that is quite important.

2. The Ukraine issue is definitely not garbage. In this instance "my side" is falling for the same thing the Left fell for when they shut down schools because Trump wanted them open.

Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons because we asked them to on promise of providing support for their defense.

Ukraine is only 1 of several objectives Putin has, which he has stated plainly: 1. Ukraine. 2. Moldova. 3. Belarus. 4. Baltics / Suwalki Gap.

One of Putin's closer allies made an open threat to invade Poland 2 weeks ago.

Some of that may be bluster but folks thought Putin was bluffing before every move he has made. Last week the prime minister of Moldova resigned due to an obvious Russian subversion campaign.

Pretty much never in history does a person like Putin stop until forced to do so. Much better to stop him now than before he gets to the Baltics because that is NATO territory and direct war with NATO countries (or a nasty in between conflict that leads to NATO dissolving and a quite different world after that - which some frankly want but I am not sure are thinking about clearly).

 

[WyoDawg307]

1. They may not admit they are wrong but that doesn't mean everyone else can't come to understand it and that is quite important.

2. The Ukraine issue is definitely not garbage. In this instance "my side" is falling for the same thing the Left fell for when they shut down schools because Trump wanted them open.

Ukraine gave up nuclear weapons because we asked them to on promise of providing support for their defense.

Ukraine is only 1 of several objectives Putin has, which he has stated plainly: 1. Ukraine. 2. Moldova. 3. Belarus. 4. Baltics / Suwalki Gap.

One of Putin's closer allies made an open threat to invade Poland 2 weeks ago.

Some of that may be bluster but folks thought Putin was bluffing before every move he has made. Last week the prime minister of Moldova resigned due to an obvious Russian subversion campaign.

Pretty much never in history does a person like Putin stop until forced to do so. Much better to stop him now than before he gets to the Baltics because that is NATO territory and direct war with NATO countries (or a nasty in between conflict that leads to NATO dissolving and a quite different world after that - which some frankly want but I am not sure are thinking about clearly).

Ehh, I don't buy that this about Putin grabbing land. That is the message being pushed out by the DOD (RAND Corp) and the State Dept.

The US/NATO spent 8 years over there antagonizing him until he had to act. My bet is this is all about the USD losing it's legitimacy to the future Russian/China led gold backed BRIC's currency (that and making sure Germany and Russia on on opposing sides ergo, blow up the pipeline).

Not trying to start a side argument, but what war did we win or NATO win the last 75 years that gives you hope the US/NATO will stop Putin?

 

[ugaboz]

Not mine. They and their staffs all do. Just had an OP procedure 2 weeks ago and everyone in the place were masked. Ditto all in the adjacent hospital. I don’t GAS if someone wants to roll the dice… but don’t attempt to tell me trained / highly educated professionals are all wrong.

we can tell you wear a mask in your car by yourself

 

[RoyDawgMercer]

we can tell you wear a mask in your car by yourself

He’ll, I’m wearing one right now and was only mask wearer at a funeral visitation today!

 

[deadduckdawg]

The only people left wearing them are the ugliest m***********s in the country and bloodsuckers knocking off convenience stores.

 

[Dr. Curmudgeon]

Not mine. They and their staffs all do. Just had an OP procedure 2 weeks ago and everyone in the place were masked. Ditto all in the adjacent hospital. I don’t GAS if someone wants to roll the dice… but don’t attempt to tell me trained / highly educated professionals are all wrong.

Perhaps they are afraid of something you might infect them with.

 

[Dr. Curmudgeon]

The only people left wearing them are the ugliest m***********s in the country and bloodsuckers knocking off convenience stores.

And criminals that can hide their face with approval from the government.

 

[RoyDawgMercer]

Perhaps they are afraid of something you might infect them with.

Not me. I’m clean.

 

[atlanta cock#]

He’ll, I’m wearing one right now and was only mask wearer at a funeral visitation today!

Well, now that you’ve announced that you don’t follow the science, you’re free to smoke, drink, and eat chocolate pudding 3 times a day because it’s healthy for you.

 

[ugaboz]

He’ll, I’m wearing one right now and was only mask wearer at a funeral visitation today!

you must be proud and scared

 

[deadduckdawg]

He’ll, I’m wearing one right now and was only mask wearer at a funeral visitation today!

So, are you one of the ugliest m***********s on earth or are you knocking off a convenience store.?

 

[BigDaddyDawgBreath]

Ehh, I don't buy that this about Putin grabbing land. That is the message being pushed out by the DOD (RAND Corp) and the State Dept.

The US/NATO spent 8 years over there antagonizing him until he had to act. My bet is this is all about the USD losing it's legitimacy to the future Russian/China led gold backed BRIC's currency (that and making sure Germany and Russia on on opposing sides ergo, blow up the pipeline).

Not trying to start a side argument, but what war did we win or NATO win the last 75 years that gives you hope the US/NATO will stop Putin?

What evidence do you or anyone else have of this bullshit conspiracy theory that this war was started by defense companies?

I guess it makes conservatives sound all "rage against the machine" but I have 200 years of Russian history of them trying to subjugate "the Little Russians" (the name Catherine the Great tried to pin on Ukrainians to get them to assimilate).

I think Biden is a clown show most of the time, but that doesn't mean everything is a conspiracy or the actual villain is hidden (as opposed to it being the obvious guy here - the former KGB agent who has wanted Ukraine for 20 years and way before NATO started talking to Ukraine - remember the Ukrainian president Putin tried to poison to death in 2002?)

And Putin has said or done things to gain control over Ukraine, Moldova and Belarus. That's a fact, not a theory. I can post links if necessary.

 

[WyoDawg307]

What evidence do you or anyone else have of this bullshit conspiracy theory that this war was started by defense companies?

I guess it makes conservatives sound all "rage against the machine" but I have 200 years of Russian history of them trying to subjugate "the Little Russians" (the name Catherine the Great tried to pin on Ukrainians to get them to assimilate).

I think Biden is a clown show most of the time, but that doesn't mean everything is a conspiracy or the actual villain is hidden (as opposed to it being the obvious guy here - the former KGB agent who has wanted Ukraine for 20 years and way before NATO started talking to Ukraine - remember the Ukrainian president Putin tried to poison to death in 2002?)

And Putin has said or done things to gain control over Ukraine, Moldova and Belarus. That's a fact, not a theory. I can post links if necessary.

Your response begins way off base when you said I referenced “defense companies” which I did not in any of my posts. (Or are you unfamiliar with the RAND Corp? They are not a defense company, just a think tank that has guided our foreign policy and national defense strategy since WW2 ended.) You are not any different than the libs you like to argue with when you state my post is a bullshit conspiracy because you conflate my point with things I never said.

And of course Putin influences the former USSR satellites. That is their sphere of influence and yet another reason we have ZERO business being in Ukraine, which BTW was annexed by Catherine the Great after the French revolution. It was Russia's territory 300+ years ago and the only reason the US started meddling in it was to provoke Putin.

And once again I am not a conservative nor a RINO Rebpuglican.

The US started the Maiden revelation and the coup in 2014, Nuland was the point person then and is still involved today. The US/NATO kept pushing to admit Ukraine to NATO, violating the Minsk agreements.
Why? To provoke the Russians, of course.

I thought you were a free thinker since we agreed on the virus BS/Masks/etc, but on this issue you are listening to our overlords playbook.

You ignored my question about what have you seen NATO/US militarily over the last 75 years that makes you think Russia will be defeated. And "our" side isn't winning, despite what the media propagandizes. The sanctions failed and Russia is now partnering with China, with Iran not far behind. Meanwhile, the US will not discuss peace talks, therefore there are really only 2 possible outcomes: the US/NATO loses or nuclear war.

The people in Europe are starting to wake up to the fact they are pawns in this proxy war of US vs Russia and protests will only grow. If Europe had been colder this winter the protests would have been much worse. This ridiculous propaganda by the US that Ukraine is a democracy is insane. That country is as democratic as I am a liberal.

 

[BigDaddyDawgBreath]

Your response begins way off base when you said I referenced “defense companies” which I did not in any of my posts. (Or are you unfamiliar with the RAND Corp? They are not a defense company, just a think tank that has guided our foreign policy and national defense strategy since WW2 ended.) You are not any different than the libs you like to argue with when you state my post is a bullshit conspiracy because you conflate my point with things I never said.

And of course Putin influences the former USSR satellites. That is their sphere of influence and yet another reason we have ZERO business being in Ukraine, which BTW was annexed by Catherine the Great after the French revolution. It was Russia's territory 300+ years ago and the only reason the US started meddling in it was to provoke Putin.

And once again I am not a conservative nor a RINO Rebpuglican.

The US started the Maiden revelation and the coup in 2014, Nuland was the point person then and is still involved today. The US/NATO kept pushing to admit Ukraine to NATO, violating the Minsk agreements.
Why? To provoke the Russians, of course.

I thought you were a free thinker since we agreed on the virus BS/Masks/etc, but on this issue you are listening to our overlords playbook.

You ignored my question about what have you seen NATO/US militarily over the last 75 years that makes you think Russia will be defeated. And "our" side isn't winning, despite what the media propagandizes. The sanctions failed and Russia is now partnering with China, with Iran not far behind. Meanwhile, the US will not discuss peace talks, therefore there are really only 2 possible outcomes: the US/NATO loses or nuclear war.

The people in Europe are starting to wake up to the fact they are pawns in this proxy war of US vs Russia and protests will only grow. If Europe had been colder this winter the protests would have been much worse. This ridiculous propaganda by the US that Ukraine is a democracy is insane. That country is as democratic as I am a liberal.

1. Rand Corporation is heavily involved in defense circles. I think their largest source of revenue is DOD. That talking point is very close to the "this is all so defense contractors can make money" manure floating around everywhere but if you say I went further than your meaning then so be it. That's on me.

2. It would be easier for me to go along with the conservative dogma on Ukraine but I will not so not sure how that makes me a non-free thinker. The opposite I think.

3. Ukraine-Putin history did not start in 2014. Putin tried to assassinate the 1st Ukrainian president who defied him in 2002 well before anyone even thought of Ukraine in NATO (Yuschenko). You are confusing the chicken and the egg here. Ukraine (like Poland, the Baltics, and the rest of E Europe) wanted in NATO to protect themselves from Russia, not because US dragged them into NATO to provoke Russia.

Let me say that again - the Eastern European countries wanted to join NATO to to protect themselves from centuries of Russia f-ing with them (most recently via Warsaw Pact).

Does that mean the US or NATO handled this issue perfectly? It does not. But that's the real world.

And it also does not strike from the record the repeated, clear statements/actions of Putin about Russia expansion. I think the idea Putin is entitled to do that because countries are next to him is a hellaciously dangerous idea especi!ally when some of those are NATO countries.

Finally, there isn't going to be a nuclear war or a use of nuclear weapons. That's Putin bullshit designed to get folks saying exactly what you said here on social media throughout the West.

 

[BigDaddyDawgBreath]

Just some things to consider on the Russia issue that go beyond the bullshit being spread in conservative circles these days.(and remember - I am one of you, but I do not easily tolerate propaganda or baseless narratives on any side of the political spectrum, and the Ukraine war is absolutely full of it, mostly coming from Russia):

1. Russian actions to subsume Belarus - "the Union State"

Revealed: Leaked document shows how Russia plans to take over Belarus

The document, written for Putin’s Presidential Administration, envisages the total incorporation of Belarus into a “Union State” with Russia by 2030.

news.yahoo.com

2. Russian actions to subsume Moldova

Moldova, Under Pressure From Russia’s War on Ukraine, Fears It Could Be Next

The tiny country’s pro-Western leadership sees escalating Russian efforts at subversion.

www.wsj.com

Consider those 2 things carefully. If Russia is actually trying to effectively gobble up Belarus and Moldova, it throws all the mindless bullshit spread about Zelensky and Ukraine out the window ("the Paris shopping trip!").

As it should, because what Russia is doing has zero to do with Zelensky or even Ukraine. It's about Russia wanting to expand, and via war if necessary.

This is only hard because too many conservatives see Biden in charge of this and have a natural reaction against him/the effort. I get that but ask yourself this: do you think Reagan would have said "**** the Ukrainians and Eastern Europe - just let the Russian tanks roll!"

Finally, 2 of Putin's closest allies in the last 2 weeks have issued open invasion threats towards Poland (Medvedev and Kadyrov - one was Putin's Prime Minister and the other his Chechen hammer and supplier of troops).

I think that's in the same category as "we'll use nukes if you don't let us take what we want!" but it says something about Russian goals. When you combine rhetoric with their proven actions its pretty clear Russia will take whatever it is allowed to take in Eastern Europe. If your position is "fine - we will ignore our treaty commitments in NATO if/when he moves on Baltics" then you are at least consistent (although when the US breaks treaties service members almost always have to die later to repurchase our credibility).

Strikingly similar to the situation Churchill found himself in on the backbenches in the 1930s IMO...

Senior Russian official threatens Polish borders as Moscow mounts aggression against other European nations

Former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev issued a direct threat against NATO on the anniversary of the war in Ukraine by calling on Moscow to push Western defenses across Polish borders.

www.foxnews.com

 

[BigDaddyDawgBreath]

And just to hammer this home:

I think Biden and his administration are the kookiest collection of Left wing incompetents ever inflicted on the US.

But Putin was in power long before Biden, doing Putin things that have nothing to do with Joe, Hunter, the Mexican border, Paris shopping trips, "Ukrainian Nazis", or any of the other stuff Russian maskirovka has masterfully seeded into Western conservative circles.

Biden probably doesn't know where Belarus is on a map but even his incompetent team has figured this one out. Somebody in the administration is smart enough to the the "broke clock right twice a day" on this issue.

And Biden will be gone one day, and perhaps Zelensky too. Do you believe Putin will stop doing what's he doing when both are out of the picture?

 

[Dirty Hairy Dawg]

And just to hammer this home:

I think Biden and his administration are the kookiest collection of Left wing incompetents ever inflicted on the US.

But Putin was in power long before Biden, doing Putin things that have nothing to do with Joe, Hunter, the Mexican border, Paris shopping trips, "Ukrainian Nazis", or any of the other stuff Russian maskirovka has masterfully seeded into Western conservative circles.

Biden probably doesn't know where Belarus is on a map but even his incompetent team has figured this one out. Somebody in the administration is smart enough to the the "broke clock right twice a day" on this issue.

And Biden will be gone one day, and perhaps Zelensky too. Do you believe Putin will stop doing what's he doing when both are out of the picture?

There is a lot of truth in what you posted but I think you miss the point about why the opposition is so great. The issue I and others have isn't we are aiding Ukraine, it's that the U.S. is pouring more money into the war effort than anyone else (with shoddy accounting I would add). I think it's imperative that the U.S. is involved. I also think the support level would be around 90% if it was a U.S. lead effort but with more than 50% of the funding coming from our allies that are threatened by the monster THEY have been creating. It's the blank check from the U.S. to defend Europeans from other Europeans while we are ignoring issues that need funding in our country that is the rub.

Additionally, all the smart people that are now saying Putin has always been determined to expand Russia and recreate pre 91 borders are the same people that created the monster by inviting him into the G8, happily turned off U.S. oil spigots in order to buy energy from Putin, chased investors for the building of Skolkovo and created a situation where we'd be dependent on Russian spacecraft to continue our efforts in space at a time where our defense was becoming more and more dependent on capabilities in space.

So now, here we are with the people that coddled Putin for yrs, used Putin to wrongly attack a sitting U.S. POTUS, used Ukraine to conduct impeachment proceedings of the same POTUS during a true national emergency writing blank checks and telling us were Putin lovers if we want transparency regarding how much money they are willing to spend and transparency on where the money is going. Oh, and as to Reagan, I doubt Reagan would have looked into a former KGB head's eyes and seen anything other than a power hungry tyrant and would have not yielded to the idiots that thought treating Putin like an ally would turn him into a freedom loving ally.

 

[WyoDawg307]

And just to hammer this home:

I think Biden and his administration are the kookiest collection of Left wing incompetents ever inflicted on the US.

But Putin was in power long before Biden, doing Putin things that have nothing to do with Joe, Hunter, the Mexican border, Paris shopping trips, "Ukrainian Nazis", or any of the other stuff Russian maskirovka has masterfully seeded into Western conservative circles.

Biden probably doesn't know where Belarus is on a map but even his incompetent team has figured this one out. Somebody in the administration is smart enough to the the "broke clock right twice a day" on this issue.

And Biden will be gone one day, and perhaps Zelensky too. Do you believe Putin will stop doing what's he doing when both are out of the picture?

Overstate much? You are still captive to the US narrative. You keep bringing up the corrupt President of our country for some reason, is Biden Derangement Syndrome now a thing? Who cares? He is a vessel for the powers that be and nothing more and that is the reason I didn't mention him (or Orange man.) The parties are just there to distract the citizens and are a waste of time to bring into the discussion.

All I can see is more BS lies from the warmongers, the same warmongers that gave us:
Gulf of Tonkin - a lie
Yellowcake - a lie
Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, and now saying Ukraine is a democracy and a NATO problem. BS!

All this is clear to me but I don't watch a second of tv news or read any of the BS news put out by the propaganda machine. Just like "the insurrection in DC", I never took the bait on the narrative so I could see it was 100% crap immediately.

The last F'in thing I am going to do is read links from WSJ/Faux News/Yahoo. ALL of them took money from the government to FLOG the virus/vax narrative. ( I am surprised that you don't know that too.) So OF COURSE they will support the USG and war machine's position!

Fun fact - JFK "leaked to the NYT" that his Joint Chiefs were against sending troops into Laos in 1962. They were of course 100% in favor of that, but it took pressure off JFK to send troops to SE Asia. I mean, I am sure there would be no "leaked stories and anonymous sources" in the media 60 years later to support the US position that these former Soviet states are being targeted by Putin, right?

 

[Dr. Curmudgeon]

There is a lot of truth in what you posted but I think you miss the point about why the opposition is so great. The issue I and others have isn't we are aiding Ukraine, it's that the U.S. is pouring more money into the war effort than anyone else (with shoddy accounting I would add). I think it's imperative that the U.S. is involved. I also think the support level would be around 90% if it was a U.S. lead effort but with more than 50% of the funding coming from our allies that are threatened by the monster THEY have been creating. It's the blank check from the U.S. to defend Europeans from other Europeans while we are ignoring issues that need funding in our country that is the rub.

Additionally, all the smart people that are now saying Putin has always been determined to expand Russia and recreate pre 91 borders are the same people that created the monster by inviting him into the G8, happily turned off U.S. oil spigots in order to buy energy from Putin, chased investors for the building of Skolkovo and created a situation where we'd be dependent on Russian spacecraft to continue our efforts in space at a time where our defense was becoming more and more dependent on capabilities in space.

So now, here we are with the people that coddled Putin for yrs, used Putin to wrongly attack a sitting U.S. POTUS, used Ukraine to conduct impeachment proceedings of the same POTUS during a true national emergency writing blank checks and telling us were Putin lovers if we want transparency regarding how much money they are willing to spend and transparency on where the money is going. Oh, and as to Reagan, I doubt Reagan would have looked into a former KGB head's eyes and seen anything other than a power hungry tyrant and would have not yielded to the idiots that thought treating Putin like an ally would turn him into a freedom loving ally.

What we are doing if you compared eras to WWII would be aligning ourselves with Mussolini to fight against Hitler.

 

[BigDaddyDawgBreath]

Overstate much? You are still captive to the US narrative. You keep bringing up the corrupt President of our country for some reason, is Biden Derangement Syndrome now a thing? Who cares? He is a vessel for the powers that be and nothing more and that is the reason I didn't mention him (or Orange man.) The parties are just there to distract the citizens and are a waste of time to bring into the discussion.

All I can see is more BS lies from the warmongers, the same warmongers that gave us:
Gulf of Tonkin - a lie
Yellowcake - a lie
Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, and now saying Ukraine is a democracy and a NATO problem. BS!

All this is clear to me but I don't watch a second of tv news or read any of the BS news put out by the propaganda machine. Just like "the insurrection in DC", I never took the bait on the narrative so I could see it was 100% crap immediately.

The last F'in thing I am going to do is read links from WSJ/Faux News/Yahoo. ALL of them took money from the government to FLOG the virus/vax narrative. ( I am surprised that you don't know that too.) So OF COURSE they will support the USG and war machine's position!

Fun fact - JFK "leaked to the NYT" that his Joint Chiefs were against sending troops into Laos in 1962. They were of course 100% in favor of that, but it took pressure off JFK to send troops to SE Asia. I mean, I am sure there would be no "leaked stories and anonymous sources" in the media 60 years later to support the US position that these former Soviet states are being targeted by Putin, right?

I am pretty much the opposite of someone who is captive to narratives.

 

[BigDaddyDawgBreath]

There is a lot of truth in what you posted but I think you miss the point about why the opposition is so great. The issue I and others have isn't we are aiding Ukraine, it's that the U.S. is pouring more money into the war effort than anyone else (with shoddy accounting I would add). I think it's imperative that the U.S. is involved. I also think the support level would be around 90% if it was a U.S. lead effort but with more than 50% of the funding coming from our allies that are threatened by the monster THEY have been creating. It's the blank check from the U.S. to defend Europeans from other Europeans while we are ignoring issues that need funding in our country that is the rub.

Additionally, all the smart people that are now saying Putin has always been determined to expand Russia and recreate pre 91 borders are the same people that created the monster by inviting him into the G8, happily turned off U.S. oil spigots in order to buy energy from Putin, chased investors for the building of Skolkovo and created a situation where we'd be dependent on Russian spacecraft to continue our efforts in space at a time where our defense was becoming more and more dependent on capabilities in space.

So now, here we are with the people that coddled Putin for yrs, used Putin to wrongly attack a sitting U.S. POTUS, used Ukraine to conduct impeachment proceedings of the same POTUS during a true national emergency writing blank checks and telling us were Putin lovers if we want transparency regarding how much money they are willing to spend and transparency on where the money is going. Oh, and as to Reagan, I doubt Reagan would have looked into a former KGB head's eyes and seen anything other than a power hungry tyrant and would have not yielded to the idiots that thought treating Putin like an ally would turn him into a freedom loving ally.

Thanks as always for your comments.

I think most of this can be sliced through with application of the "2 wrongs don't make a right" analysis.

The world has been stupid in how it handled Putin. Agree Europe should do more (Trump was a clown show but spot on about that).

However, letting too much of any of that lead us to say "Ukraine can just get gobbled up and Moldova and Belarus - good luck" would be compounding the errors IMO.

It also ignores the Budapest agreement where Ukraine gave up nukes when we promised to support their security.

I absolutely support accountability for the aid but I think many use that as a smokescreen to just attack Ukraine. Because when has any govt effort anywhere in the world ever not had waste or abuse. $400 hammers anyone?

I also think my conservative friends try to gloss over the Reagan question- because they know what the answer would be and don't like it.

Similarly I ask, "What would Thatcher be doing right now? What would Churchill say about Marjorie Taylor Greene and Matt Gaetz?"

 

[Dirty Hairy Dawg]

Thanks as always for your comments.

I think most of this can be sliced through with application of the "2 wrongs don't make a right" analysis.

The world has been stupid in how it handled Putin. Agree Europe should do more (Trump was a clown show but spot on about that).

However, letting too much of any of that lead us to say "Ukraine can just get gobbled up and Moldova and Belarus - good luck" would be compounding the errors IMO.

It also ignores the Budapest agreement where Ukraine gave up nukes when we promised to support their security.

I absolutely support accountability for the aid but I think many use that as a smokescreen to just attack Ukraine. Because when has any govt effort anywhere in the world ever not had waste or abuse. $400 hammers anyone?

I also think my conservative friends try to gloss over the Reagan question- because they know what the answer would be and don't like it.

Similarly I ask, "What would Thatcher be doing right now? What would Churchill say about Marjorie Taylor Greene and Matt Gaetz?"

I think we are usually pretty closely aligned and don't think we are way off here. However, while I agree 2 wrongs don't make a right, this is about the 11ty billionth time I've seen the same deal where Europe creates a mess, the U.S. takes the financial and or military risk to clean up the mess and then like a child given something for free, the Europeans go right back to the behavior that created the risk in the first place. It doesn't matter if it's the lefty Euroweenies slamming Reagan before the SU collapsed or if it's France violating ME sanctions while we are trying to avoid a ME war or Germany laughing at our POTUS for a warning about buying energy from Russia instead of the country that helps pay their defense, this is a lot more than 2 wrongs.

Next, I don't think you can define a movement by the opinions of those that are the on the fringes of the movement. I don't know about MTG but I would bet Gaetz would jump aboard a reasonable aid package if it also included a commitment from our allies that lessened our burden.

And finally, call it MAGA or America first or crazy Trumpers but imo a majority of Americans are dissatisfied with a government that is quick to give away our money all over the globe, negotiate trade agreements that extend free trade principals to our markets without reciprocation and immigration laws ignored by the governing. It's a damn shame that Trump became the standard bearer for government by, of and for the people and had the stones to take on the government for the governing crowd but here we are.