Special Counsel Hur is highly credible. Impressive…

[willdup]

(Man...I didn't want to make another long post...but, it's Spring Break and I'm home w/ the kids ):

Because Trump had already returned 15 boxes of documents that they asked for. In January '22 NARA received them and said that Trump representatives were “continuing to search” for additional records and according to testimony, NARA “began talking with Trump’s people right after they left office” about “presidential records.”

But, NARA said some were marked classified & believed other "classified" documents were missing. In '21 they reportedly “discovered some high-profile documents missing, such as correspondence with North Korean’s leader Kim Jong Un, that Trump once described as ‘love letters,’” the letter Obama had left for Trump, and a map of Hurricane Dorian that had been altered with a black marker by Trump." They were "expected" to be in those 15 boxes.

Here's a good, short summary about the Presidential Records Act and what the disagreement seemed to be about:


Did NARA go back to Trump after those documents weren't included in the 15 boxes? If so, did they subsequently bring a court case to arbitrate the disagreement over those documents? Apparently not. If they did & there were disagreements...arbitrate. If they did and Trump didn't respond....arbitrate, as has been the historical norm.

Instead, after receiving those 15 boxes of documents NARA apparently had concerns about the security of Mar-a-Lago (weird, since the Secret Service both protects the location & guards the provided-classified storage) and instead of working to arrange for the documents to be "kept" under NARA "control" in a location chosen by Trump, just as it did with Obama...NARA referred the matter to the DOJ (for a non-criminal statute), which used a grand jury to investigate Trump.

In a Feb '22 article, the Washington Post reported two significant leaks:

1. Within the boxes to NARA were documents marked classified (as I noted above)
2. That “archives officials asked the Justice Department to look into the matter”

Once the grand jury had the case, apparently for a violation of the Presidential Records Act (according to a leak) the DOJ sought an “Obstruction of Justice” charge for anything less than full cooperation with the FBI.

Again, I thought the presidential records were the concern...or documents with classified markings, which apparently were still secured under SS protection. So, why did NARA refer to the DOJ? Why was a grand jury used to investigate a former POTUS, when it's a non-criminal act & any potential (not confirmed) classified document is still protected? Why didn't NARA simply follow up or use the same methods used in similar disagreements in the past?

Instead, we get an Espionage Act charge that forces the establishment that Trump had “reason to believe” the national defense information “could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation.”

Within the course of one week, the justification for the search went from “nuclear secrets” to classified documents, to videos suggesting the documents were not secure, to videos suggesting the Trump team was serendipitously moving the documents, to a confidential human source claiming Trump continued to possess presidential records, to a supposed lie by Trump’s attorney that there were no documents present at Mar-a-Lago marked classified.

So, why weren't the Presidential Records Act arguments that I've presented present in "Trump's Defense" or his statements from the start? Because it went from Zero to FBI raids in the blink of an eye, accompanied by salacious leaks, pictures leaked to news outlets, and changing stories. The Presidential Records Act discussion/argument was never given a chance to develop in the proper course of events that past fPOTUS disagreements w/ FARA were given.

A few comments.

On what do you base the understanding that the records in question were constantly under SS protection? I haven’t seen that and the photos of how they found the boxes of documents during the raid do not suggest a high degree of security.

You have suggested several times that NARA did not follow the same process they used in the past with similar situations. Which situations are you referencing? Nothing about the Obama example or the Clinton Socks case are remotely similar to the scope and scale of what Trump took or more importantly what he retained after submitting a legal testament that everything was returned.

Zero to FBI raid in the blink of an eye? Hardly. Quite the opposite in fact and if we are to believe what has been reported about the nature of the documents in question, Trump was treated with an unprecedented level of deference.

From Donald Trump's departure from the White House to the FBI raid on his Mar-a-Lago estate, the timeline involves several critical developments:

- **January 20, 2021:** Donald Trump leaves office as President of the United States, with Joe Biden inaugurated as his successor.
- **February 18, 2021:** The National Archives communicates with Trump representatives regarding the return of documents, with classified information among those boxes returned.
- **April 12, 2021:** The National Archives informs Trump that it will disclose documents to the FBI, leading to a request for an extension by Trump's lawyer.
- **April 29, 2021:** The Justice Department explains to Trump that the documents include highly classified materials and states that immediate access to these materials is necessary for a criminal investigation.
- **May 10, 2021:** The request to delay giving the FBI access to the documents is denied by the acting archivist, noting over 100 documents with classified markings were found.
- **May 11, 2021:** Trump complies with a grand jury subpoena seeking documents marked as classified.
- **June 3, 2021:** DOJ officials visit Mar-a-Lago, meet with Trump, and retrieve additional documents marked as classified. A Trump lawyer asserts that all materials marked classified have been returned.
- **June 22, 2021:** Trump is served with another subpoena for surveillance footage from Mar-a-Lago.
- **August 8, 2021:** The FBI conducts a search at Mar-a-Lago, removing 25 boxes of documents, including classified and top-secret information

 

[Moosefish]

A few comments.

On what do you base the understanding that the records in question were constantly under SS protection? I haven’t seen that and the photos of how they found the boxes of documents during the raid does not suggest a high degree of security.

Because the SS has 24/7 security surveillance on all-things Trump residence, as an ex-POTUS. Forget the pictures you saw. At least one was "staged". The key part here that I don't have an answer for is if his residence was cleared for "open storage", which is big thing for anybody that has worked in a SCIF or similar storage area. If it was 'open storage', then the SS absolutely provided any required security.

You have suggested several times that NARA did not follow the same process they used in the past with similar situations. Which situations are you referencing? Nothing about the Obama example or the Clinton Socks case are remotely similar to the scope and scale of what Trump took or more importantly what he retained after submitting a legal testament that everything was returned.

"Scope and scale"? That's a narrative. NARA referenced a few documents. I provided what was referenced, above. It wasn't a lot. Clinton kept tapes he said were personal. Obama played the game better, but still had disagreements. It's not remotely "similar" for a lot of reasons that are going to be different because a fPOTUS w/ the ability to run again makes it different...but the law doesn't reference 'scale'. "Scope & Scale" in this case is irrelevant, unless you're making a political argument, imo.

Do we know Trump kept more relative to the "scope & scale" compared to Clinton? To Obama? No. If you have a reference that compares all three, please share. I think what you'll find is very little re: Clinton/Obama & a lot of coverage for Trump.

Zero to FBI raid in the blink of an eye? Hardly. Quite the opposite in fact and if we are to believe what has been reported about the nature of the documents in question, Trump was treated with an unprecedented level of deference.

We are going to have to disagree here. Trump's team cooperated...NARA wanted more...then brought in the DOJ without any "deference" or legit communication about diagreement. It blows my mind that you're arguing that Trump was shown ANY "deference". The ex-NARA guy was an admitted anti-Trump person w/ a bone to pick. "Nature" of the documents? What independent reporting do you have that provides what that was? You don't. It's all sensationalized (as I gave an example of previously). Nobody who "knows" what he "had" has actually provided specifics. The "nature" of the documents kept changing, for what appeared to be political purposes.

Again...WHY did NARA go straight to the DOJ? There is no legal or logical reason to do so, if they are showing "unprecedented deference". Sorry, will...but that's ridiculous.

From Donald Trump's departure from the White House to the FBI raid on his Mar-a-Lago estate, the timeline involves several critical developments:

- **January 20, 2021:** Donald Trump leaves office as President of the United States, with Joe Biden inaugurated as his successor.
- **February 18, 2021:** The National Archives communicates with Trump representatives regarding the return of documents, with classified information among those boxes returned.
- **April 12, 2021:** The National Archives informs Trump that it will disclose documents to the FBI, leading to a request for an extension by Trump's lawyer.
- **April 29, 2021:** The Justice Department explains to Trump that the documents include highly classified materials and states that immediate access to these materials is necessary for a criminal investigation.
- **May 10, 2021:** The request to delay giving the FBI access to the documents is denied by the acting archivist, noting over 100 documents with classified markings were found.
- **May 11, 2021:** Trump complies with a grand jury subpoena seeking documents marked as classified.
- **June 3, 2021:** DOJ officials visit Mar-a-Lago, meet with Trump, and retrieve additional documents marked as classified. A Trump lawyer asserts that all materials marked classified have been returned.
- **June 22, 2021:** Trump is served with another subpoena for surveillance footage from Mar-a-Lago.
- **August 8, 2021:** The FBI conducts a search at Mar-a-Lago, removing 25 boxes of documents, including classified and top-secret information

I've already covered that timeline. "Marked Classified" doesn't mean they are in fact, classified. You could make a similar timeline re: Clinton & his "tapes", if you stretched it. The difference is that it he wasn't raided for what was claimed to be "classified" material that he refused to give up until a court made a decision.

There was zero reason to bring in the FBI/Justice Department over a disagreement about Presidential records, let alone raid his residence for something that could have been resolved in court. It reeks of targeting for political purposes & whether Trump was/is "right" or not is irrelevant...given Smith's very poor history of ruining political careers before getting convictions thrown out by the Supreme Court, I have little faith he's following the letter of the law vs. making things up for political benefit. He's a political stooge (and that opinion has nothing to do w/ Trump)

 

[ugadoc]

I agree. It was a tacit acknowledgment that this investigation was regarding a politically charged matter, which doesn't seem appropriate to me.

It was also not appropriate, and in fact went against DOJ policy, for Hur to speculate regarding the anticipated defense strategy, much less the effectiveness in front of a jury of that hypothetical defense strategy, for the charges he decided not to bring. The DOJ directive on the matter suggests that if the preponderance of evidence supports charges, that the potential anticipated sympathy of a jury or the public at large should not impact the decision to bring charges.

I feel for Mr. Hur today. He is getting it from both sides.

Regardless, the hearing today gave the Dems a public forum to compare and contrast the two presidential candidates on both mental competence and the handling of classified documents. I think most people will see it as a win for Biden and the Dems.

I think only Dems see the day as a win for Biden. Hur said there was sufficient evidence to prosecute but he didn’t due to Biden’s mental capacity. That is not up to him to decide. Have a physician do an independent assessment or press charges against Biden. He said he turned over the documents right away but that is a lie. He KNEW for certain since 2017 he illegally had classified documents. He gave them to his ghost writer to read-also illegal. He didn’t turn them over in 2017. I’m sure Biden lawyers knew he had them and said hey Joe we need to get rid of these. He prob has more stashed who knows where. Biden had documents at least four completely unsecured locations AND he was never President so had no right to have them. He clearly stole the documents as a Senator and snuck them out. He had documents for at least 40 years. Trump’s documents were surrounded by secret service and mostly behind secured locked doors if not completely. What Biden did was much worse. Plus his son (and JB) were selling out the country to our enemies for many millions. How many secret documents do you think Hunter sent/gave to our enemies?? Biden and his family are grifters who don’t give a shit about our country. They only care about lining their pockets. Complete scum.

 

[ugadoc]

lets see, your guy stashed classified documents in 7 UNSECURE locations, shared them with a ghost writer to write a book for him, got $$$ for said book, and you are trying to say biden is not as bad as your tds ghost.... LMBO, Biden looks stupid and awful and like a traitor for providing the documents to a writer and you libs look even worse for defending him and acting like his is a nothing burger. What we have here is a 2 tiered biased enforcement of the law by a politicized doj and your lack of acknowledgement of that fact proves your crying about democracy and j6 are just hollow words spoken by a true leftist that cares nothing for the rule of law.

Too bad its against the rules to tell you leftist what you need to hear.

Agree. Biden IS a traitor to our country. If history books are accurate in the future that will be clear to all. But if Biden wins there will be no history books re the US because we can’t survive four more years of his horrific economic and international policies plus a wide open invasion across our borders. This election is the most critical in the nations history. A Dem win means one party rule forever until our nation is destroyed. All republicans need to donate their time and money to this election.

 

[cherrydawg]

Sir, in fairness to @willdup you are being overly-harsh, imo. He has a different opinion than you...sure. But, I don't think it's borne of animus.

I think you're adding a lot of 'personal' observations within your outlook re: the subject. I'm not making you a target here....because there are a lot of people (on "both sides") that do the same.

Consider this a 'heads-up' about needless commentary on posters....we should all stick to the subject-at-hand on the Chat. Anything outside of that is ripe for removal.

Thanks.

I will refrain from posting to willdup. I do not agree that I am overly harsh on him because I do not agree that it is just his opinion vs mine. The animus is toward Trump, which I really don't mind. I have often said I did not vote for trump in the primary. Trump is not my fav. However, his policies are far better for America than biden. Leftist would rather burn the country down basing much of their hate for Trump on the double standard in reporting and prosecution of the law by a corrupt doj/fbi. I have no probelm with folks disliking Trump the man. I do have problems with people willing to destroy the country over their "trumped" up hatred for a turd of a man with overall good policy.

I also believe his posts are full of hard left wing propaganda and basically are a retelling of far left news outlet reporting. However, I don't want to be banned from the vent so I am going to only use emojis to laugh at funny stuff, very wrong outrageous stuff and a thumbs up or heart eyes for good to great posts.

It really does no good to talk to some folks, they would rather believe a lie than find the truth.

 

[Moosefish]

I will refrain from posting to willdup. I do not agree that I am overly harsh on him because I do not agree that it is just his opinion vs mine. The animus is toward Trump, which I really don't mind. I have often said I did not vote for trump in the primary. Trump is not my fav. However, his policies are far better for America than biden. Leftist would rather burn the country down basing much of their hate for Trump on the double standard in reporting and prosecution of the law by a corrupt doj/fbi. I have no probelm with folks disliking Trump the man. I do have problems with people willing to destroy the country over their "trumped" up hatred for a turd of a man with overall good policy.

I also believe his posts are full of hard left wing propaganda and basically are a retelling of far left news outlet reporting. However, I don't want to be banned from the vent so I am going to only use emojis to laugh at funny stuff, very wrong outrageous stuff and a thumbs up or heart eyes for good to great posts.

It really does no good to talk to some folks, they would rather believe a lie than find the truth.

I'm just asking people to not make it personal, which your post approached (but, didn't cross the line, which you've improved a lot with). Make it about the "debate". As I said, I wasn't really making it about you, but used your post as a reminder to everyone.

 

[Moosefish]

A few comments.

On what do you base the understanding that the records in question were constantly under SS protection? I haven’t seen that and the photos of how they found the boxes of documents during the raid do not suggest a high degree of security.

You have suggested several times that NARA did not follow the same process they used in the past with similar situations. Which situations are you referencing? Nothing about the Obama example or the Clinton Socks case are remotely similar to the scope and scale of what Trump took or more importantly what he retained after submitting a legal testament that everything was returned.

Zero to FBI raid in the blink of an eye? Hardly. Quite the opposite in fact and if we are to believe what has been reported about the nature of the documents in question, Trump was treated with an unprecedented level of deference.

From Donald Trump's departure from the White House to the FBI raid on his Mar-a-Lago estate, the timeline involves several critical developments:

- **January 20, 2021:** Donald Trump leaves office as President of the United States, with Joe Biden inaugurated as his successor.
- **February 18, 2021:** The National Archives communicates with Trump representatives regarding the return of documents, with classified information among those boxes returned.
- **April 12, 2021:** The National Archives informs Trump that it will disclose documents to the FBI, leading to a request for an extension by Trump's lawyer.
- **April 29, 2021:** The Justice Department explains to Trump that the documents include highly classified materials and states that immediate access to these materials is necessary for a criminal investigation.
- **May 10, 2021:** The request to delay giving the FBI access to the documents is denied by the acting archivist, noting over 100 documents with classified markings were found.
- **May 11, 2021:** Trump complies with a grand jury subpoena seeking documents marked as classified.
- **June 3, 2021:** DOJ officials visit Mar-a-Lago, meet with Trump, and retrieve additional documents marked as classified. A Trump lawyer asserts that all materials marked classified have been returned.
- **June 22, 2021:** Trump is served with another subpoena for surveillance footage from Mar-a-Lago.
- **August 8, 2021:** The FBI conducts a search at Mar-a-Lago, removing 25 boxes of documents, including classified and top-secret information

Additional unredacted documents released, this is in addition to the recently unredacted revelation of WH extended & inappropriate coordination w/ NARA & DOE retroactively rescinding his security clearance.







When I said previously that the obstruction charges seemed like entrapment, given it was based on a non-criminal records statute...I had no idea that there would be revelations that make this all look like actual entrapment.

 

[zingerdawg]

Additional unredacted documents released, this is in addition to the recently unredacted revelation of extended & inappropriate coordination w/ NARA & DOE retroactively rescinding his security clearance.

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When I said previously that the obstruction charges seemed like entrapment, given it was based on a non-criminal records statute...I had no idea that there would be revelations that make this all this look like actual entrapment.

If this is Jack smith, and proves true, not surprising at all. They hired a smooth brain worse than slojoe to run their case.

 

[Moosefish]

If this is Jack smith, and proves true, not surprising at all. They hired a smooth brain worse than slojoe to run their case.

Smith has a history of being a clear attack dog meant to ruin political careers. What he did to Virginia Gov. Robert McDonnell is ridiculous (McDonnell just happened to be a potential Presidential candidate). It resulted in a unanimous Supreme Court decision overturning the conviction.

Chief Roberts noted Smith's "boundless interpretation of the federal bribery statute." Seem familiar?

Edit: emphasized the 'unanimous' part.

 

[willdup]

Additional unredacted documents released, this is in addition to the recently unredacted revelation of extended & inappropriate coordination w/ NARA & DOE retroactively rescinding his security clearance.

View embedded media

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When I said previously that the obstruction charges seemed like entrapment, given it was based on a non-criminal records statute...I had no idea that there would be revelations that make this all this look like actual entrapment.

I’m in New Orleans for Jazzfest and enjoying myself too much to get involved in the political morass right now.

Let’s see what’s happened with this blockbuster news by Monday.

Cheers.

 

[Moosefish]

I’m in New Orleans for Jazzfest and enjoying myself too much to get involved in the political morass right now.

Sounds awesome.

Let’s see what’s happened with this blockbuster news by Monday.

Cheers.

My guess is nothing...but, that's part of the problem. Even beyond media choosing to report on this or not...the NY trial is going to take all the oxygen out of the room. That doesn't diminish what these documents are.

The documents aren't simply open to interpretation. It opens the case up to plenty of questions. My guess is that there will be little to no media coverage, but the un-redaction of the redactions play a role in the pre-trial or trial itself. On the surface, it's damning. But, will involve a lot of legal motions/discussion/rulings.

 

[atlanta cock#]

I’m in New Orleans for Jazzfest and enjoying myself too much to get involved in the political morass right now.

Let’s see what’s happened with this blockbuster news by Monday.

Cheers.

Have a great time! Next time though, check out French Quarter Fest. It’s about 2 weeks prior to JF. The locals (and I) say it’s better. Same food vendors too.

Cheers.

 

[stray]

Have a great time! Next time though, check out French Quarter Fest. It’s about 2 weeks prior to JF. The locals (and I) say it’s better. Same food vendors too.

Cheers.

I agree on French quarter fest.