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Ukraine strikes targets in Russia with US weapons

Pine_Tree1

War Daddy
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Jun 22, 2018
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For first time.

America & Russia purposely avoid hot conflict for 60+ years....but now we seem eager to make this bitch scalding hot.

It should be noted on the day everyone was distracted by Trump getting hit with 34 felonies, the US gave permission for Ukraine to strike Russian targets in Russia with American weapons. Most Americans didn't even hear about it. Focus on this hand....don't worry about what that hand is doing....
 
I will be called a Putin loving anti-American commie for saying this

(Despite what the MSM narrative says) It's illogical to believe as soon as Ukraine finally falls, Russia will take Poland and then the rest of Europe will surely fall. It's been 2.5 years with heavy losses in a very unpopular war among most Russians. Ukraine will eventually fall to Russia unless American troops are deployed & an unwinnable WW3 is kicked off.

(Sarcasm) But yes, as soon as Ukraine FINALLY falls, Russia will invade the rest of Europe. Paris, Amsterdam, London, & Madrid may as well start learning Russian. (End sarcasm)

Speaking of direct war between Russia & USA. It almost seems like the plan. There have no off ramps proposed by the West & and over the past two years, things have only escalated between the two nations (been no efforts towards de-escalation).
 
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I will be called a Putin loving anti-American commie for saying this

(Despite what the MSM narrative says) It's illogical to believe as soon as Ukraine finally falls, Russia will take Poland and then the rest of Europe will surely fall. It's been 2.5 years with heavy losses in a very unpopular war among most Russians. Ukraine will eventually fall to Russia unless American troops are deployed & an unwinnable WW3 is kicked off.

(Sarcasm) But yes, as soon as Ukraine finally falls, Russia will invade the rest of Europe. Paris, Amsterdam, London, & Madrid may as well start learning Russian. (End sarcasm)

Speaking of direct war between Russia & USA. It almost seems like the plan. There have no off ramps proposed by the West & and over the past two years, things have only escalated between the two nations (been no efforts towards de-escalation).
The fear of Russia invasion into mainland Europe is always my favorite. A) it’s not going to happen and b) if it did so what?

The various European peoples have defended themselves against invasions coming out of the Eurasian steppe for over a thousand years. They’d be fine.
 
The fear of Russia invasion into mainland Europe is always my favorite. A) it’s not going to happen and b) if it did so what?

The various European peoples have defended themselves against invasions coming out of the Eurasian steppe for over a thousand years. They’d be fine.
It'll probably take Putin 3-4 years to take Ukraine. Of course he's hellbent on a 30+ year war commitment to take all of Europe....assuming he's cloning soldiers in labs to replace his heavy losses in Ukraine.

Makes complete sense, right?
 
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C'mon it'll probably take Putin 3-4 years to take Ukraine. Of course he's hellbent on a 30+ year war commitment to take all of Europe....assuming he's cloning soldiers in labs to replace his heavy losses in Ukraine.

Makes complete sense, right?
The Ukraine propaganda people can never make up their minds as to whether the Russians are the most incompetent military in the world or a lurking tiger waiting to pounce on Europe.


I’m just thankful my tax dollars went to the deserving Ukrainian oligarchs.
 
The Ukraine propaganda people can never make up their minds as to whether the Russians are the most incompetent military in the world or a lurking tiger waiting to pounce on Europe.


I’m just thankful my tax dollars went to the deserving Ukrainian oligarchs.
 
"The Ukrainian president reportedly paid 150 million pounds to acquire one of the largest and most luxurious hotels in Europe, the " Vouni Palace Casino " located in occupied Kyrenia."

If that were true that would be where $191,692,500 of US tax payer money just went.
 

If this ever happens in America because a draft to fight WW3 this BS campaign to defeat Russia creates, it's going to get way uglier in the states than this
 
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If this ever happens in America because a draft to fight WW3 this BS campaign to defeat Russia creates, it's going to get way uglier in the states than this
I've read some European countries are already planning for conscription. If Biden wins, good chance it's implemented here.
 
I've read some European countries are already planning for conscription.

Some, like Germany, have been doing it for decades.

...If Biden wins, good chance it's implemented here.

There's zero chance that happens.

1. We are not designed, equipped, or trained to successfully fight wars w/ large #'s of conscripted troops
2. The amount of $$ to train, equip, & feed that many additional mouths would be a tremendous waste
3. It's a politically-losing move that would never pass Congress, which would be a required move to implement it

Nobody on the planet fights wars the way we do, partly because nobody spends as much money as we do. That high cost comes w/ benefits that others cannot replicate. It's why comparing Russia/Ukraine to any theoretical conflict involving us is flawed.
 
I've read some European countries are already planning for conscription. If Biden wins, good chance it's implemented here.
Air Force & Army have already invited many retirees back to active duty for two years of service.

Almost all branches are well below objective for sustainment levels for recruitment

Mandatory IRR recall & retiree recall probably isn't too far off.

I believe congress is proposing or has already proposed making selective service enrollment automatic. Right now, it's required for all males within the required age range but I read somewhere around 20% of American males never register and few if any are ever punished for not enrolling.

Right now things are manageable but if hot war breaks out with China, Russia, or in the middle East, we could see the draft come back
 
There's zero chance that happens.

1. We are not designed, equipped, or trained to successfully fight wars w/ large #'s of conscripted troops
2. The amount of $$ to train, equip, & feed that many additional mouths would be a tremendous waste
We are also not designed, built, or staffed to fight a conventional war vs China or Russia as it stands today. One Chinese torpedo could kill hundreds or even thousands of Americans in the South China sea.

Either we need to stop escalating major tensions towards serious war globally or we will need to figure out the kinks of conscription. People aren't volunteering for our all volunteer military today at good enough numbers
 
For first time.

America & Russia purposely avoid hot conflict for 60+ years....but now we seem eager to make this bitch scalding hot.

It should be noted on the day everyone was distracted by Trump getting hit with 34 felonies, the US gave permission for Ukraine to strike Russian targets in Russia with American weapons. Most Americans didn't even hear about it. Focus on this hand....don't worry about what that hand is doing....

They probably didn’t do much damage. Especially when you read this.


I’ve had arguments with Ukraine loving othe red s on here. They always say, this can’t be judged in dollars and we are learning so much. Well looks like Russia is learning a shitload too about us. And I’m sure they will pass along to China and others.

I thought the dems were the party of peace? Their policies are failing at every angle and like they say…….. “WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS, THEY TAKE YOU TO WAR”
 
Air Force & Army have already invited many retirees back to active duty for two years of service.

Almost all branches are well below objective for sustainment levels for recruitment

Mandatory IRR recall & retiree recall probably isn't too far off.

I believe congress is proposing or has already proposed making selective service enrollment automatic. Right now, it's required for all males within the required age range but I read somewhere around 20% of American males never register and few if any are ever punished for not enrolling.

Right now things are manageable but if hot war breaks out with China, Russia, or in the middle East, we could see the draft come back
I made a post about the services issues with recruitment about two months ago, has nothing to do with "woke" but new medical system that makes it nearly impossible to hide disqualifying medical diagnosis. You can no long lie about not being asthmatic, they can pull your medical records from the 8 grade and you're denied or have to go through a lengthy waiver process.
 
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It'll probably take Putin 3-4 years to take Ukraine. Of course he's hellbent on a 30+ year war commitment to take all of Europe....assuming he's cloning soldiers in labs to replace his heavy losses in Ukraine.

Makes complete sense, right?
I can’t see Russia defeating the NATO alliance if they stay together.
 
US Tax payers on the hook for hundreds of
I've read some European countries are already planning for conscription. If Biden wins, good chance it's implemented here.
The dem’s will conscript the illegals with pathway to citizenship - use them on US civilians & send our kids over seas.
 
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We are also not designed, built, or staffed to fight a conventional war vs China or Russia as it stands today.

I disagree with this. Today we would wipe the floor with both of them (even if we got bloodied more than we're used to).

One Chinese torpedo could kill hundreds or even thousands of Americans in the South China sea.

True. But, we're not defenseless. But, that's a liability inherent with any naval vessel. China's Navy has improved, but they are not anywhere close to US capabilities.

Either we need to stop escalating major tensions towards serious war globally

100% agree

or we will need to figure out the kinks of conscription.

100% disagree. That would be a horrible idea. There is no benefit w/ conscription, because we can win without large #'s of troops. We have force multipliers that others do not. We are really, really good at the war part of waging war. Really good. If we want to, we can conventionally (and definitely with a nuclear weapon) strike any target on Earth & nobody can stop us. Nobody.

I have more combat experience than the entire Chinese military, combined. They don't know what they don't know. They have exponentially increased their capabilities...but, the fog of war isn't something they have dealt with in living memory.

Ability to hurt us is a long way from defeating us.

People aren't volunteering for our all volunteer military today at good enough numbers

100% true. And I agree with w/ you said in another post....IRR activation and/or stop loss, etc. are all options. But, Vietnam-type conscription is not going to happen. The Goldwater-Nichols Act in '86 changed every aspect of how we wage war, and we've only built on that framework. We have been absolutely lethal ever since. Our main issues have been nation building & dealing with sectarian violence during long-term occupations...neither of which are a problem with a scenario where we are fighting a peer or neer-peer on Night One.
 
We are also not designed, built, or staffed to fight a conventional war vs China or Russia as it stands today. One Chinese torpedo could kill hundreds or even thousands of Americans in the South China sea.

Either we need to stop escalating major tensions towards serious war globally or we will need to figure out the kinks of conscription. People aren't volunteering for our all volunteer military today at good enough numbers

I could be wrong but i think the real war is being fought unconventionally. You hear Tawians claims they can shut down their computer chips. Isreal, likely with the help of the US has been making the reactors mess up with computer viruses. We have weapons and warfare strategies that are likely more unlikely that we imagine.

The technology our government has is always 20 years ahead of the private sector it seems. I kinda think troops are more pawns now. Obviously some always have been.
 
The Ukraine propaganda people can never make up their minds as to whether the Russians are the most incompetent military in the world or a lurking tiger waiting to pounce on Europe.


I’m just thankful my tax dollars went to the deserving Ukrainian oligarchs.
Ukrainians are fighting with their lives and the least we can do is strongly support them 100% with our weapons and dollars. Maga republicans think Trump falling all over Putin will solve problems, but they won't. We are very lucky we are not losing American lives fighting for world democracy against Russia and Putin. Biden has been awesome in getting the world democracies to join in support of Ukraine (while Trump to suck up to Putin wanted to stop US aid to Ukraine).
 
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I could be wrong but i think the real war is being fought unconventionally. You hear Tawians claims they can shut down their computer chips. Isreal, likely with the help of the US has been making the reactors mess up with computer viruses. We have weapons and warfare strategies that are likely more unlikely that we imagine.

The technology our government has is always 20 years ahead of the private sector it seems. I kinda think troops are more pawns now. Obviously some always have been.
I don't doubt this to be true, but Ive yet to see a modern war be not waged by infantrymen on the front lines. When an actual war is waged by cyber warfare & jammers, then I'll believe it
 
I don't doubt this to be true, but Ive yet to see a modern war be not waged by infantrymen on the front lines.

When was the last time that US infrantrymen faced off against opposing infantrymen?

What was the last conventional military we faced?

Who was the last opponent to give us any level of actual "trouble" in the first 6 months of a conflict?
 
When was the last time that US infrantrymen faced off against opposing infantrymen?

What was the last conventional military we faced?

Who was the last opponent to give us any level of actual "trouble" in the first 6 months of a conflict?

I'll go even further, when was the last time we were not wildly successful, prior to an opposing government being toppled, when we weren't handcuffed by policy and/or politics?
 
Ukrainians are fighting with their lives and the least we can do is strongly support them 100% with our weapons and dollars. Maga republicans think Trump falling all over Putin will solve problems, but they won't. We are very lucky we are not losing American lives fighting for world democracy against Russia and Putin. Biden has been awesome in getting the world democracies to join in support of Ukraine (while Trump to suck up to Putin wanted to stop US aid to Ukraine).
Why in God's name should American's die fighting for democracy?
 
For first time.

America & Russia purposely avoid hot conflict for 60+ years....but now we seem eager to make this bitch scalding hot.

It should be noted on the day everyone was distracted by Trump getting hit with 34 felonies, the US gave permission for Ukraine to strike Russian targets in Russia with American weapons. Most Americans didn't even hear about it. Focus on this hand....don't worry about what that hand is doing....
If Trump would have done this you dumb MFers would be praising your holy Trump God!
 
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When was the last time that US infrantrymen faced off against opposing infantrymen?

What was the last conventional military we faced?

Who was the last opponent to give us any level of actual "trouble" in the first 6 months of a conflict?
I meant when was the last war by any nation where infantrymen were not heavily relied upon
 
I’m glad I’m out of working with all this. Most people don’t know what’s on the line which is why I fall way more on the non-escalatory side.
 
I meant when was the last war by any nation where infantrymen were not heavily relied upon

That's absolutely a valid point, as far as actual forces present. We will never win anything (and this hurts me) with air or sea power, alone. But, I believe the flaw in your assumptions are the number of troops required to do what you assume is nescessary.

At some point, we need brave troops on the ground, willing to hold/secure positions. But, so much of that concept is very dated. This isn't WWII. Vietnam & Korea are irrelevant. Desert Storm? We were mobile and kept moving. Afghanistan? Iraq II? Nobody came close to standing up in a peer to peer fight. We have a ton of capabilities that support fast, mobile troops taking territory.

We are precise, deadly, & are very capable of removing a conventional (peer/near-peer) foe's ability to wage war. This is a point that is often lost/ignored. Once we gain air superiority (something we have enjoyed for decades), we can do whatever we want, whenever we want.

Our foes are trying to challenge us....but, between the F-22 & F-35....we are unmatched. The air power enthusiast inside me wants to be challenged here. It would be a blowout.

The question is about scale. My point is that even recent examples from the Russian/Ukraine war are not indicative of what we would require. We are far-more capable.
 
If Trump would have done this you dumb MFers would be praising your holy Trump God!
Ha ha! U being played - bet u think them Dem’s freed the slaves too! Prez Z is the Dem’s bitch, Dem’s War - Trump tried to withhold aid to get answers about Biden & Ukraine - Dems impeached him! Dumb MFer
 


@Moosefish if you get some time, watch from 21:50-28:38.

Back to my OP where I said something like USA & Russia avoided hot war for 60+ years now our govt seems hell bent on cranking up the heat, why?

I hope this isn't true but this is a dark scenario I've considered.

Interesting that Canada & now Mexico both have far left socialist PMs/presidents & the new Mexican president's father & potentially mother were members of the Mexican communist party. Read there were more than 20 candidates assassinated by cartels in that primary election for president. The cartels apparently chose (didn't prevent) her to prevail

Interesting that a deeply Christian(Catholic) nation chose a Jewish woman to represent it. Jewish people make up 1-3% of the population of Mexico
 
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The president of the United States should never apologize to a slum country's leader for delay in aid
 
Some, like Germany, have been doing it for decades.



There's zero chance that happens.

1. We are not designed, equipped, or trained to successfully fight wars w/ large #'s of conscripted troops
2. The amount of $$ to train, equip, & feed that many additional mouths would be a tremendous waste
3. It's a politically-losing move that would never pass Congress, which would be a required move to implement it

Nobody on the planet fights wars the way we do, partly because nobody spends as much money as we do. That high cost comes w/ benefits that others cannot replicate. It's why comparing Russia/Ukraine to any theoretical conflict involving us is flawed.
That’s correct. The draft would take his entire four year term to sober our youth up from pot and lose weight. There is just not enough Ozempic. What is interesting, seems like half of the Ukrainians under 30 are in Thailand.
 
That's absolutely a valid point, as far as actual forces present. We will never win anything (and this hurts me) with air or sea power, alone. But, I believe the flaw in your assumptions are the number of troops required to do what you assume is nescessary.

At some point, we need brave troops on the ground, willing to hold/secure positions. But, so much of that concept is very dated. This isn't WWII. Vietnam & Korea are irrelevant. Desert Storm? We were mobile and kept moving. Afghanistan? Iraq II? Nobody came close to standing up in a peer to peer fight. We have a ton of capabilities that support fast, mobile troops taking territory.

We are precise, deadly, & are very capable of removing a conventional (peer/near-peer) foe's ability to wage war. This is a point that is often lost/ignored. Once we gain air superiority (something we have enjoyed for decades), we can do whatever we want, whenever we want.

Our foes are trying to challenge us....but, between the F-22 & F-35....we are unmatched. The air power enthusiast inside me wants to be challenged here. It would be a blowout.

The question is about scale. My point is that even recent examples from the Russian/Ukraine war are not indicative of what we would require. We are far-more capable.
Great post Moose. I like to describe/compare the varying levels of military capability by different countries as I would the varying levels of college football conferences greatness.

At the very top is the SEC: UGA, BAMA, OU, UT, UTjr, MIZZU LSU, Ole Pi...I mean Ole Miss, T&M, Barn and UF ....the very best of the best and there's no comparison. This is who the US military is and there's not a country anywhere close to our capability from "Tooth" but especially to "Tail". No country has the ability to project power globally like we can. I point people to the fact that Russia can't invade and conquer a neighboring country or project power more than 100 miles from their boarder. While the US invaded and occupied not 1 but 2 countries half way around the world for 20 years. That's the height of the British empire type shit. Alexander the Great type stuff by comparison. If we really wanted to, we can kill anyone in the world with limited civilian collateral damage.

Next would be NATO and I would say they are a the ACC minus Clemson, FSU and Miami. Good talent left there with: BC, Duke, GT, NC State, UNC, Pitt, Syracuse, Virginia Tech and WF but who's watching those games. That conference makeup would maybe get aired on PBS but can't think anywhere else but that's the level of drop off with capability. Good tech, good training and good military leaders but way way underfunded and limited power projection capabilities.

China and Russia I'd say are around the same level but they have major questions as far as corruption, quality of tech, limited power projection against near-peer, military leaders and military doctrine. But they can churn out a butt ton of capacity even though their effectiveness would be limited compared to the US and NATO so I'd compare them to an FCS conference.

No one should doubt for a second our military and the only one that can defeat us is...Congress.
 
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We are also not designed, built, or staffed to fight a conventional war vs China or Russia as it stands today. One Chinese torpedo could kill hundreds or even thousands of Americans in the South China sea.
This I agree with. 20 years of GWOT put us behind and allowed China and Russia to close the gap. @Moosefish can tell you that the USAF is going through the most significant changes since the Godlwater-Nicholes Act. If you've served in the military you know we're all about buzz words or phrases and the new one is Great or Global Power Competition (GPC). The USAF is damn near completely restructuring at break neck speed to counter the threat of China. It's a crazy time to say the least.
 
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