What’s the helicopter doing?
- Thread starter seatonsdawgs
- Start date
Tough searching at night, especially in the river.
There is always military aircraft in the DC area with all the terrorist threats these days
There is always military aircraft in the DC area with all the terrorist threats these days
DCA is an extremely busy airport, the flight path is narrow and it follows the river. Somebody seriously screwed up and I’d guess it wasn’t the airliner. Horrible.
The water temperature is dangerously low. They need to find any survivors.
Supposedly 4 have been pulled from the water, but nothing on their condition
I hope they speak English. No one inside the airport does.
Sure looked the the helicopter should have had plenty of time to see the jet and avoid the collision. I can't imagine that it would have been intentional but the explanation is going to be interesting.
Agree. Even though it was night operations, the degree of avionics in todays small private planes is so far advanced that the impending collision would be signaled in both cockpits. Tragic for all aboard both craft. So many questions to be answered though.
My guess is the helicopter was focused on avoiding another plane. You get laser focused on avoiding one thing and sometimes completely miss something right in front of you. Have seen it at night on boats.
It's up to the air traffic controllers to delay or redirect other air traffic as needed to allow an airliner to make its approach. A helicopter can freakin hover if needed. I heard the blackhawk only had 3 personnel on board.
Some reports saying ATC asked helicopter pilot if he sees the commuter plane descending, the first time he answers affirmative, the second time he was asked, maybe because his path had not changed, he did not answer
Perhaps @Moosefish could lend his expertise here.
Might also comment on the role, if any, this played (reports are that the blackhawk had the ADS-B turned off): https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...ule-sets-safety-exceptions-to-always-on-ads-b
That was my first thought as well but the idea that the heli pilot was effectively blinded by the lights does make sense to me.
Based on what I've already read: In every instance I can remember on final approach, if any other small aircraft is going to cross in front of us (co-altitude or not), tower has always asked if we have them in sight (at night or not...it's why there are a specific series of lights on every aircraft), or let us know that they would be crossing in front of us (usually at a lower altitude)
Someone definitely made a deadly mistake. The airliner is likely less at fault imo, because final approach is heavily scripted to specific altitudes and air speeds. The helicopter could have done something the tower or the plane didn't anticipate (like not be at their assigned altitude). But, it's ATC's job to make sure this doesn't happen, imo. Keep in mind that pilots that regularly flying in and out of busy airports are used to seeing other aircraft around them.
Think about driving down a busy highway and how used to having other cars zip by you in the opposite direction...now if you've ever had a car cross over in your lane head-on, has it ever taken you a second or two to realize it? Maybe not. You have lines that help ID it quickly. But, throw in the dimension of different altitudes...something being slightly off can take a critical second or two to realize it.
Assuming that the two aircraft were at their assigned/expected altitudes...ATC should have absolutely "seen" it coming and called a go around well before they hit (they use radar and transponders to keep track of everyone). Maybe everyone is too reliant on ADS-B? The helicopter had it turned off (or didn't have it, as not all mil aircraft are required to have it).
I'd pay attention to any confirmation of the following:
1. Were both aircraft at their assigned altitude?
2. Was something else going on that distracted the controllers in the tower?
Preventable mishaps rarely have a single factor that is solely responsible for an accident. It's almost always a series of events (even sometimes small mistakes) that would otherwise not be noteworthy, but align "perfectly" to be the cause of a crash.
Edit: removed something because I didn't explain it well re: ADS-B / TCAS.
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Military certainly can turn it off, under certain circumstances. No idea if the Blackhawk was allowed to in this situation. I'm still not 100% certain they have it..and that could accidentally be generating the story they had it "off". But, ADS-B is standard for almost all mil aircraft. So, this is something I'm really interested in getting the full story on.
@Moosefish - Thanks for your insight into what might have happened. The NSB should be able to figure out what happened. The CRJ appears to be on final descent and the pilots would be concentrating on that. If there was no communication to that aircraft at that time, it would appear they were doing what was expected. It does seem like there are more questions about what the helicopter was doing and any talk with the tower or between themselves which is available could provide some answers. Terrible tragedy and we have had better safety for commercial aircraft than I remember growing up. There have been some close calls and hopefully changes have been made.
Based on information on Pilots of America forum, the heli was at 450 ft on a 200 ft published route. Additionally, ATC confirmed twice and then turned over visual avoidance to the helicopter. He was also flying with no lights other than his beacon. I’m guessing he saw a different plane. Tragic regardless.
Yeah, the close calls of the past couple of years and Boeing's well-publicized issues are not helping the public's confidence. Like you, I hope they get all their stuff in a bag and keep safety paramount.
The airline reported plane was at either 400’ or 600’ can’t recall which. Heard someone mention the chopper has to remain below 200’. But haven’t seen anyone link those 2 issues together. If both reports are accurate, that is one of the major causes
Edit; just saw new report that said planes last transmission was at 350’ and choppers last transmission was at 200’. So not sure what to make of this.
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Just heard John Scott report the collision occurred at 350 ft so altitude appears to be THE main culprit. Additionally, I find it difficult to believe it's common procedure for a heli to fly 200 feet directly below a commercial jet on final approach.
Putting together the puzzle pieces, I think the helicopter was trying to avoid another plane….attention solely focused there, as he elevates above his default 200 feet. Guessing the ATC could have done more to prevent the collision….alarming the helo pilot what he was doing, but pilot could’ve should’ve used his own eyeballs too. Terrible.
Relying solely on visual cues to avoid deadly air collisions, at night, seems like gambling with people's lives. It's not a landing strip in a small town.
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Last audio from helicopter. He had visual and still maintained path? Wtf!
Some speculation he was looking at the wrong plane. Did tower give him direction of plane to avoid ? I just heard him say “go behind” the plane.
I have seen some reports that the ATC tower was understaffed by 1/3. If true, it could be why an ATC would allow their attention to go elsewhere if the helicopter pilot responded that he had a visual on the plane. I've also heard there is a hard cap for helicopters in that area of 200 feet and the crash occurred at around 350 ft.
It’s been reported that there is typically a dedicated helicopter controller for night time operations and that night, one controller was responsible for planes and helicopters. This is considered understaffed but not against operating rules.
Regardless, one of the two aircraft was not at the proper altitude (obviously) and it seems more likely than not that it was the Black Hawk.
It’s unfortunate but unsurprising that the POTUS decided to hold a rambling press conference and sign a proclamation (really?) assigning blame for the crash to DEI policies before the victims were even out of the water. Seems both premature and with no basis in fact.
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There will be a lot of things reported. I've noticed that note often than not, initial reports on fantastic stories are inaccurate.
I believe Trump's "rambling" was unfortunate as well and also thought he did a very poor job of explaining why he thought DEI was a contributing factor. I'm not defending him other than to say, I'm sure he has information that isn't available to the general public but that doesn't mean yesterday was the right time to start throwing people under the bus.
Additionally, I am taking all of the reporting I'm seeing with a grain of salt and hope these stories are confirmed, debunked or clarified in the near future. I mean it shouldn't be hard to discover if 3K qualified candidates were denied due to race when there is a major shortage of ATCs nationwide and if near miss incidents have risen dramatically over the last couple of yrs. If it is BS, I'm willing to completely condemn any journo that runs with an inaccurate story.
My guess is there is going to be some uncomfortable information that arises for anyone advocating a position rather than wanting to discover the truth. Like Trump, I want positions that carry great responsibility to be staffed by the best available candidate regardless of gender, race, sexual preference or whom or what they like to kiss during their private time. Unlike Trump, I don't think the time to announce and initiate change as well as assigning blame was yesterday.
He did not declare DEI a contributing factor to this specific situation.
Actually worse, he speculated and then didn't explain his thoughts. One reporter asked him how he knew DEI played a role and his answer was common sense. Even though I think there could be and probably is some merit for investigating a possible connection to a more dangerous flying environment and DEI, I don't think yesterday's press conference was the correct time and place for anything other than 100% factual information.
What I bolded above exactly. I like a lot of what Trump does and have voted for him 3 times now, but man, he just cannot help himself in situations like that to turn every speaking opportunity into something like a campaign speech/chance to bash his political opponents & their policies. I happened to be listening to it live and was saying to myself, "Man, just shut up! This is not the time or place! Have a little tact & respect." But he simply cannot do it, never has been able to. Now, I know that's what some people love about him, but it's also what a lot of people like me do not like about him. Really made my stomach turn listening to him use the first chance he had to speak about the absolute horrible tragedy not to deliver a unifying message of sorrow & understanding, but instead a divisive attempt to make his opponents look bad and himself look good. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, it's par for the course for him, but I still thought he might be able to hold back, at least for a day or two. But of course not.
Yes, he did. Go to 24:35.
He also signed a "presidential memorandum" yesterday blaming Biden and DEI policies for a drop in aviation safety. I'm sure that had zero to do with an effort to apportion blame for the incident that happened less than 24 hours prior.
Had the same reaction. Also not a good look when you fire the entire aviation safety advisory committee one week before the worst domestic airline crash in 15 years.
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