NonDawg All I know is what I know about the Covid..

[55dawg]

So very true! COVID 19 is like Forrest Gump's box of chocolates, "You never know what you are going to get!" We do know that with certain comorbidities and advanced age you are more likely to get some consequences, but this is not a hard and fast rule granting immunity to those potential victims that are younger or uncompromised.

The most common cause of death in cases has been the exaggerated and unpredictable immune system response. This occurs with some individuals where the lungs are attacked initially and the resulting cytokine storm results in massive inflammation and tissue damage with the patient either choking to death because the normal oxygen/CO 2 exchange is compromised by fluid and exudate in the alveolae or damage to those same tissues is so great that the exchange is permanently diminished to a level where life is an unsustainable proposition. Even if you survive with capacity above that level you can end up with an ARDS like condition where, depending on the extent of the residuals, your pulmonary function is so compromised you can't function in any situation requiring significant physical exertion and you may need constant oxygen augmentation. One poster mentioned a friend that recovered, but now has similar residuals.

The virus can attack other vital systems in the body and cause damage to them as well. We have heard the horror stories involving the brain, the digestive system, and the renal function. . There are the disturbing cases where the circulatory systems of some younger individuals have experienced a similar immune response similar to the pulmonary cases where excessive inflammation of the blood vessels has resulted in death or damage to other organs. Similar to Kawasaki Disease.

Perhaps the second greatest killer is the often observed condition of hypercoagulability that can accompany the infection and can result in the clotting of blood in the vital organs like the heart, brain, and lungs. When patients are immobilized and confined to a bed while on a ventilator you end up a most undesirable convergence and you have the setting for a perfect storm. Translated, that might mean a stroke, an MI, or a pulmonary embolism that kills the patient. How long does this clotting threat continue? Some patients are taking weeks and even months to fight off the virus and get over some of their symptoms. Another poster stated that a friend "dropped dead". No cause of death is provided, but this could easily be a situation where the hypercoagulability is responsible.

Since this disease is new and has not mirrored precisely the known histories of the two previous Corona viruses that carried serious consequences for humans, SARS and MERS, there is a lot of research to be done and a lot of data to be collected. The fact that a lot of research on vaccines for those two viruses had already been ongoing for some time offers the hope for an early vaccine for this version. Any conclusions about COVID 19 this early in the process carry significant questions regarding validity simply due to the definition of validity. Those conclusions or theories may ultimately be proven correct, but based on limited populations or anecdotal stories they must be treated with some skepticism. The hydroxychloroquine debacle is a classic illustration. We know that some patients with autoimmune conditions respond favorably and so there was some hope that in patients experiencing the overblown immune response there might be some type of benefit. Turns out that the number getting benefits is too small to register as "significant" in the limited studies that are available. The infrequent but potentially lethal side effects related to cardiac arrhythmias was known in cases of both malaria and autoimmune use. Since the only study showing elevated risk of this complication in SARS2 cases has been retracted by the presenting cardiologists at Brigham in Boston, there is now no valid study supporting that conclusion. There are about 14 studies indicating no significant therapeutic benefits to counter the French study. Even if there was some benefit in those cases presenting with inflammatory response issues there is no study showing that the hypercoagulability concerns are improved.

The British now have a study, subject to the same limitations on validity, that say a simple steroid has improved the survival outcomes for the exaggerated immune response cases by about 30%.
The Remedivir studies show some success in limiting the extent of the virus' impact by interfering with the replication process. Apparently slowing the progression of the infection allows the immune system to get into action in a less drastic fashion in some that might otherwise experience that counter productive exaggerated rush.

Bottom line is that there is a lot of research to be done on treatment protocols, medications to limit or eliminate the known complications, and development of that elusive vaccine.

The first scenario is where I’m convinced hydroxychlorequine can help.

 

[WRobinsDawg]

Shirley nobody in New York is lecturing anyone anywhere about anything involving this thing, right?

 

[barf]

The first scenario is where I’m convinced hydroxychlorequine can help.

There are probably 15 studies that have come out of this world pandemic that show no statistically significant treatment benefit in outcomes. Collectively these represent a much larger dataset than the extremely small sample in that isolated French study that initially promoted the possibility of some therapeutic benefits.. Of course the French pharmaceutical manufacturer was elated! I understand that the originator of the study that found the exaggerated cardiac issues, adopted and signed off on by the Brigham center in Boston, was himself trying to market some data collection and processing software system. Once some data irregularities were discovered Brigham withdrew the study and it's conclusions on adverse cardiac events from the use of hydroxychloroquine. Got to protect the integrity of the peer review process. Seems that greed corrupts everything it touches.

 

[Captain]

I don’t trust ANYTHING from CNN. They have a political agenda so far left the truth isn’t in the equation. The Spike unrelated to protests where people were shoulder to shoulder, screaming, no face masks, at the time concern was expressed but now that it isn’t a factor? Who believes that? It’s suddenly spread by 40 and under in bars? The protestors were by and large 40 and under. Shape the story to fit your agenda? Trump rallies bad, thousands protesting good.

 

[DENTDOG]

I don’t trust ANYTHING from CNN. They have a political agenda so far left the truth isn’t in the equation. The Spike unrelated to protests where people were shoulder to shoulder, screaming, no face masks, at the time concern was expressed but now that it isn’t a factor? Who believes that? It’s suddenly spread by 40 and under in bars? The protestors were by and large 40 and under. Shape the story to fit your agenda? Trump rallies bad, thousands protesting good.

This should be so obvious as to be indisputable. Another instance of attempts to deceive, seems many are eager to join the Great Deceiver.

 

[oak mountain dawg]

I don’t trust ANYTHING from CNN. They have a political agenda so far left the truth isn’t in the equation. The Spike unrelated to protests where people were shoulder to shoulder, screaming, no face masks, at the time concern was expressed but now that it isn’t a factor? Who believes that? It’s suddenly spread by 40 and under in bars? The protestors were by and large 40 and under. Shape the story to fit your agenda? Trump rallies bad, thousands protesting good.

That's funny. I don't trust ANYTHING on Fox News.

 

[Captain]

That's funny. I don't trust ANYTHING on Fox News.

Maybe pay attention. Who promised “Russia-Trump” collusion 24-7/365? Who hired commentators from former Admin who on air made such allegations but had testified under oath, behind closed doors “did not take place”? Who had breaking news Don Jr would be indicted within a day? CNN

 

[Nooga Dawg]

I never expected this virus to divide us so greatly. It’s interesting/disturbing.

Very true statement. Anything that is this politicised is bound to be divisive.
Seem to be that way for most topics we are being fed these days.....

 

[Dawg93]

I'd call that a "mic drop" . . . .

 

[Kylo Ren]

I don’t trust ANYTHING from CNN. They have a political agenda so far left the truth isn’t in the equation. The Spike unrelated to protests where people were shoulder to shoulder, screaming, no face masks, at the time concern was expressed but now that it isn’t a factor? Who believes that? It’s suddenly spread by 40 and under in bars? The protestors were by and large 40 and under. Shape the story to fit your agenda? Trump rallies bad, thousands protesting good.

i had to laugh at the 1000 medical professionals came out a few weeks ago and said "we support protesting for racial injustice, but we do not support protesting the lockdown".. that isn't medical that is political.. that is one of the prime examples of again using covid and politicizing it.. anyone who doesn't believe millions of people protesting is not behind the spikes is doing so only due to politics.. not common sense.. when you see doctors trying to blame reopening you know what is behind it.. We have been reopened in Georgia for well over 2 months and yet a few weeks after protests we have a big spike it's obvious what happened.. however when the media says protesting good for our political beliefs, but protesting is bad for lockdown and trump rallies are bad if you aren't a liberal with TDS you see what is happening.

 

[litedawg1968]

Shirley nobody in New York is lecturing anyone anywhere about anything involving this thing, right?

In a press conference a couple of weeks ago Gov Cuomo chastised the Gov of Florida for so many cases. Cant make this sht up.

 

[55dawg]

There are probably 15 studies that have come out of this world pandemic that show no statistically significant treatment benefit in outcomes. Collectively these represent a much larger dataset than the extremely small sample in that isolated French study that initially promoted the possibility of some therapeutic benefits.. Of course the French pharmaceutical manufacturer was elated! I understand that the originator of the study that found the exaggerated cardiac issues, adopted and signed off on by the Brigham center in Boston, was himself trying to market some data collection and processing software system. Once some data irregularities were discovered Brigham withdrew the study and it's conclusions on adverse cardiac events from the use of hydroxychloroquine. Got to protect the integrity of the peer review process. Seems that greed corrupts everything it touches.

There are just as many doctors and first hand accounts of it helping.

 

[albanyga]

I am in Atlanta & a native. I know 1 friend who contracted this in late March & was on a ventilator and almost died. He has recovered fine. He is 61. I am not sure if he has any underlining conditions. I also know another person who got it and passed away. He had several health issues. Finally, a close 30 something friend contracted it, with symptoms this week and is recovering well. I tested negative.

Conclusion: Just like other viruses people will get this and recover. Yes, more people may/will get it. If you have decent health and get it you will be fine after a few days. Kind of like any thing else.

Taking vitamins that are strong for immune system is also key. Defense wins championships.

 

[albanyga]

Fla didn't put the infected in the nursing homes either. Cuomo thought it was a scoring contest.

 

[JohnnyBeeDawg]

And a person who has COVID and does OK may infect three more people who don't do OK. It isn't just about each individual person.

People with COVID should stay home and not spread it.

 

[Kylo Ren]

Taking vitamins that are strong for immune system is also key. Defense wins championships.

Yep and get away from sugar.. inflammation has shown to be important in the disease getting a stronghold in people.

 

[pouliedawg]

Your friend was very lucky to go on a ventilator and live. Many in NYC who went on ventilators died. Many suggest not using ventilators at all...

That was on the very front end of this back in late March.

 

[Captain]

People with COVID should stay home and not spread it.

A large number of these new cases have very minimal symptoms. Yes, stay home, wear a mask, practice distancing.

 

[atlanta cock#]

 

[barf]

There are just as many doctors and first hand accounts of it helping.

The key wording in my post is "statistically significant". Causation and anecdotal correlations are not the methodology of scientific research.

What therapeutic effect can you expect from this quinine compound? Outside of malaria the off label use and marketing is usually related to certain autoimmune ailments like Psoriasis, Rheumatoid Arthritis or Lupus. Some limited numbers of patients with these conditions respond in a positive manner. This suggests that the immune system is somehow being suppressed, but I haven't explored the possible mechanism in play. .You get a similar action from most steroids. As stated, the British are reporting that in those COVID patients experiencing the severe pulmonary complications, usually from that cytokine storm reaction, about 30% get a positive response to dexamethasone treatments. This steroid is obviously producing that suppressed immune system action that I mentioned which would result in lower cytokine numbers, reduced inflammation of the alveolar tissues, and improved 02/CO2 exchange. That 30% number is "statistically significant".

The anecdotal evidence tends to support isolated cases where some improvement was observed. Just not in large numbers. If you have issues with cardiac arrhythmias the potential "cost/benefit" numbers suggest avoiding this treatment, but if your heart is otherwise healthy then the effects on the immune system may offer an occasional positive benefit for a very limited few that have a COVID infection that has manifested itself in a manner resulting in the exaggerated immune response with the Cytokine storm. The existing evidence suggests that you will have better odds at improving with the steroids. If you don't get the desired response then by all means take a few "Plaquenils". It beats ckoking to death on pus!

The neurological residuals that are being reported are very concerning. Still a lot of unknowns with this pathogen. Data accumulation and assessment is just beginning. and many of the answers to critical questions are years away.