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American justice?

I touched on this yesterday with the Meghan Kelley interview. Judge want let a democrat voter expert testify Trump has not committed an election law violations. Sure this will get turned over on appeal but shows you how desperate they are for a conviction at all cost. Trump has MANY issues, many of his opponents have even more….
 
I touched on this yesterday with the Meghan Kelley interview. Judge want let a democrat voter expert testify Trump has not committed an election law violations. Sure this will get turned over on appeal but shows you how desperate they are for a conviction at all cost. Trump has MANY issues, many of his opponents have even more….
Whether or not it gets overturned is irrelevant. The law fare is the point. Making DT spend time and money in court versus campaigning and bolstering the media’s portrayal of DT as some sort of evil criminal.

I also wouldn’t be putting my eggs in the New York appellate court basket or in the basket of Trump’s legal representation. Which tbf to him, various state bars have made it career suicide to represent DT.
 
Whether or not it gets overturned is irrelevant. The law fare is the point. Making DT spend time and money in court versus campaigning and bolstering the media’s portrayal of DT as some sort of evil criminal.

I also wouldn’t be putting my eggs in the New York appellate court basket or in the basket of Trump’s legal representation. Which tbf to him, various state bars have made it career suicide to represent DT.
In addition to the whole thing being a setup, there's this. Smith should be disbarred.

 
In addition to the whole thing being a setup, there's this. Smith should be disbarred.

He should be but he won’t.

There is not a single institution left in the country that is friends with the right wing.

Just wait until my generation are the judges. It’s going to be reminiscent of Mao’s struggle sessions.

My sincere hope is somehow Trump wins and goes scorched earth.

My somewhat more realistic hope is Trump’s candidacy leads to the complete destruction of the Republican Party and the “conservative” movement of the last 60 years and a real opposition party rises in its ashes.
 
SCOTUS much? Their shadow docket? judge shopping in Texas? Fifth Circuit?

whine whine whine
Are you ok with the ads out there that Trump overturned roe v wade. That he wants to take away your freedoms. Where he just says what the Supreme Court did. Is this good politics for you. Since this all happened while he wasn’t president. I am just curious if you’re ok with complete and utter bs in a political ad these days.
 
SCOTUS much? Their shadow docket? judge shopping in Texas? Fifth Circuit?

whine whine whine
you mean the same SCOTUS that has consistently shoved the lefts agenda down our throats via judicial fiat over the last 100 years?

The same one who recently expanded the civil rights protections to cross dressers? That SCOTUS?

Yes SCOTUS is a stalwart right wing institution/s.

I am unfamiliar with 5th circuit case law so I don’t have much an opinion regarding that circuit.

Edit* it’s good to see we still disagree over some topics. Nature is healing.
 
He should be but he won’t.

There is not a single institution left in the country that is friends with the right wing.

Just wait until my generation are the judges. It’s going to be reminiscent of Mao’s struggle sessions.

My sincere hope is somehow Trump wins and goes scorched earth.

My somewhat more realistic hope is Trump’s candidacy leads to the complete destruction of the Republican Party and the “conservative” movement of the last 60 years and a real opposition party rises in its ashes.
If Trump wins, I suspect he is going scorched earth. Don’t Really blame him , I hope he just makes an example of a few folks then goes on with his business
 
If Trump wins, I suspect he is going scorched earth. Don’t Really blame him , I hope he just makes an example of a few folks then goes on with his business
If we become them, we lose. My hope is Trump lnsists on a reputable special prosecutor for each shady dealing and along with the legislative branch, turns the focus back to promoting good policy. We dont need more kabuki theater hearings to get back at the dems. We need charges filed if legit criminal conspiracies are found and a congress and exec branch that is focused on serving the American public.
 
If we become them, we lose. My hope is Trump lnsists on a reputable special prosecutor for each shady dealing and along with the legislative branch, turns the focus back to promoting good policy. We dont need more kabuki theater hearings to get back at the dems. We need charges filed if legit criminal conspiracies are found and a congress and exec branch that is focused on serving the American public.
He let Hillary off but this what he gets. You know any judge in will make sure its legit unlike these commie judges.
 
Are you ok with the ads out there that Trump overturned roe v wade.
Here is a quote from Trump posted on his social media platform:

"After 50 years of failure, with nobody coming even close, I was able to kill Roe vs. Wade"

So yea, don't really see a problem with ads being run that says Trump killed Roe v Wade.
 
Here is a quote from Trump posted on his social media platform:

"After 50 years of failure, with nobody coming even close, I was able to kill Roe vs. Wade"

So yea, don't really see a problem with ads being run that says Trump killed Roe v Wade.
 
Here is a quote from Trump posted on his social media platform:

"After 50 years of failure, with nobody coming even close, I was able to kill Roe vs. Wade"

So yea, don't really see a problem with ads being run that says Trump killed Roe v Wade.
Except he didn’t kill roe vs wade. So they are both lying. And he like the Supreme Court want power with the states. Which means they determine and not the feds what the laws will be. He is even at odds with Arizona. Anyone mention that abortion numbers are up since this happened. Or do they just keep posting women crying about how much Trump has hurt their freedoms. Seems like they can find their way to the clinic just fine. And have been in record numbers. 🤦‍♂️
 
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I touched on this yesterday with the Meghan Kelley interview. Judge want let a democrat voter expert testify Trump has not committed an election law violations. Sure this will get turned over on appeal but shows you how desperate they are for a conviction at all cost. Trump has MANY issues, many of his opponents have even more….
How can a state convict someone on a federal law. The doj has already dismissed the the election violations.
 
Yeah, I am not so sure waving that document around helps the defense.

Perhaps in a certain corner of the court of opinion but...
What he did is not illegal. Plus everyone so far has testified Trump didn't direct how to classify the payment. I expect Cohen will, but he's such a liar that even a NYC jury won't believe him.

This case and the Jean Carroll case will go down as among the worst travesties in American jurisprudence. Hate on him all you want. That's your prerogative, but your side is doing irreparable damage to our system and our country's credibility. One reason so many from around the world come to the US to do business is because of their faith and trust in our legal system. That's taken a real hit.

And it'll all get reversed on appeal.
 
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How can a state convict someone on a federal law. The doj has already dismissed the the election violations.
This.

They can't. They've concocted a mystery claim and bastardized the judicial system solely for politics. The only positive will be the absolute and raw take down by the appellate court how the judge mishandled the case and how the prosecution abused its authority. I suspect Merchan will soon retire and Bragg will head over to MSNBC.

Meanwhile Hillary, Biden, Bubba, Schiff and 51 spooks who lied like hell are running free, primarily living on our tax dollars.
 
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But the claim is that Trump violated FEC laws.
not in this case...

There is assertion he violated NY law, specifically 17-152 (conspiring to promote or prevent election; a misdemeanor for which the statute of limitations has run). False records in and of itself is a misdemeanor but when paired with another crime that's how you get the upgraded charge.

Now...it really is up to Bragg and his team to paint that picture and that trump knowingly was involved in the scheme.

Been following this and doing my best to remain as objective as possible and skeptical of the DAs case, but I think the only element they have yet to lay out for the jury is trump's acting on the conspiracy to commit the election interference. That is where Cohen comes in. Can he lay that out? 🤷‍♂️
 
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not in this case...

There is assertion he violated NY law, specifically 17-152 (conspiring to promote or prevent election; a misdemeanor for which the statute of limitations has run). False records in and of itself is a misdemeanor but when paired with another crime that's how you get the upgraded charge.

Now...it really is up to Bragg and his team to paint that picture and that trump knowingly was involved in the scheme.

Been following this and doing my best to remain as objective as possible and skeptical of the DAs case, but I think the only element they have yet to lay out for the jury is trump's acting on the conspiracy to commit the election interference. That is where Cohen comes in. Can he lay that out? 🤷‍♂️
No, the claim is FEC. In order to raise it to a felony crime and prosecute it in NY, they are attempting to combine it with the NY claim, which is a misdemeanor BTW. All they have to show under the NY claim is intent, but they still have to prove the FEC claim, which technically Bragg can't prosecute. Everyone has testified Trump wasn't involved, and of course Daniels didn't testify at all about it. They brought her in simply to titillate the TDS crowd. No Judge in GA would have allowed her testimony. Merchan shouldn't have allowed it, and it's yet another appealable error in the case. A mistrial should have been granted.

In a neutral venue, they can't prove either claim and the Judge would grant a dismissal.
 
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No, the claim is FEC. In order to raise it to a felony crime and prosecute it in NY, they are attempting to combine it with the NY claim, which is a misdemeanor BTW. All they have to show under the NY claim is intent, but they still have to prove the FEC claim, which technically Bragg can't prosecute. Everyone has testified Trump wasn't involved, and of course Daniels didn't testify at all about it. They brought her in simply to titillate the TDS crowd. No Judge in GA would have allowed her testimony. Merchan shouldn't have allowed it, and it's yet another appealable error in the case. A mistrial should have been granted.

In a neutral venue, they can't prove either claim and the Judge would grant a dismissal.
I believe Bragg only needs to prove the following elements:

falsified business records (misdemeanor) in furtherance of state election law violations (conspiracy cited above; also misdemeanor) = felony falsified business records. This is largely where the focus is.

I dont think bragg even needs to mention FEC. But if he does... it's because that is what Cohen got tagged for. And Cohen is the witness that can tie trump to intent to commit conspiracy as Cohen was clearly involved and served time.
 
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I believe Bragg only needs to prove the following elements:

falsified business records (misdemeanor) in furtherance of state election law violations (conspiracy cited above; also misdemeanor) = felony falsified business records. This is largely where the focus is.

I dont think bragg even needs to mention FEC. But if he does... it's because that is what Cohen got tagged for. And Cohen is the witness that can tie trump to intent to commit conspiracy as Cohen was clearly involved and served time.

You are incorrect. The state has no ability to enforce federal election law. There is no legitimate "state law" that has any jurisdiction over a federal election. The very concept of that violates the entire Federalist system. Nobody is actually (effectively) arguing what you wrote. If you have a reference that contradicts any of this, please provide it. Lawyers from literally "every" side have slammed this entire case.

Also, Cohen himself is now effectively claiming that what he provided as legal counsel was in fact illegal? That seems like a big problem for Cohen. So, Cohen is now a witness against his own (claimed) illegal counsel?

None of this makes sense because it's a clown show.
 
I believe Bragg only needs to prove the following elements:

falsified business records (misdemeanor) in furtherance of state election law violations (conspiracy cited above; also misdemeanor) = felony falsified business records. This is largely where the focus is.

I dont think bragg even needs to mention FEC. But if he does... it's because that is what Cohen got tagged for. And Cohen is the witness that can tie trump to intent to commit conspiracy as Cohen was clearly involved and served time.
No point arguing over it with you. I've read the complaint and accounts by numerous observers who are scratching their head over this case, including Dershowitz.

Anyway, Daniels didn't testify to the claim you mention, and all of the other witnesses testified Trump didn't have anything to do with the records. If this jury convicts, it'll be no different than when hostile Judges and all white juries convicted innocent blacks back in Jim Crow. Dems are going backwards.
 
You are incorrect. The state has no ability to enforce federal election law. There is no legitimate "state law" that has any jurisdiction over a federal election. The very concept of that violates the entire Federalist system. Nobody is actually (effectively) arguing what you wrote. If you have a reference that contradicts any of this, please provide it. Lawyers from literally "every" side have slammed this entire case.

Also, Cohen himself is now effectively claiming that what he provided as legal counsel was in fact illegal? That seems like a big problem for Cohen. So, Cohen is now a witness against his own (claimed) illegal counsel?

None of this makes sense because it's a clown show.
You are right that states don't have ability to enforce federal election campaign finance laws.

But...Is your position that state laws don't apply to federal elections? Because NY law explicitly states that their laws apply to federal elections (https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/ELN/1-102). Wouldn't your position be contrary to the very definition of federalism? Help me follow as I am genuinely confused by your statement.

Here's a visual i found helpful prior to the trial starting that i use for reference for the underlying elements I mentioned:





Cohen wasn't paid for legal services/advice (no retainer as indicated in the books). He was reimbursed for paying stormy. Nothing about his payments from trump were in relation to legal services rendered. That's a verifiable fact.

Cohen pled guilty to count #8 ( excessive campaign contributions at the direction of someone in the trump campaign). Was it trump? If so that might get to intent to commit conspiracy.

I'm not rendering a guilty or not guilty verdict at this point (I think there is still reasonable doubt of trump's involvement in a conspiracy/directing the falsification of records). But the thought isn't as far fetched as some make it out to be. Bragg and Co. have to make the connections for the jury. Just because it is a weak case doesn't mean there isn't a case.
 
You are right that states don't have ability to enforce federal election campaign finance laws.

But...Is your position that state laws don't apply to federal elections? Because NY law explicitly states that their laws apply to federal elections (https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/ELN/1-102). Wouldn't your position be contrary to the very definition of federalism? Help me follow as I am genuinely confused by your statement.

Here's a visual i found helpful prior to the trial starting that i use for reference for the underlying elements I mentioned:





Cohen wasn't paid for legal services/advice (no retainer as indicated in the books). He was reimbursed for paying stormy. Nothing about his payments from trump were in relation to legal services rendered. That's a verifiable fact.

Cohen pled guilty to count #8 ( excessive campaign contributions at the direction of someone in the trump campaign). Was it trump? If so that might get to intent to commit conspiracy.

I'm not rendering a guilty or not guilty verdict at this point (I think there is still reasonable doubt of trump's involvement in a conspiracy/directing the falsification of records). But the thought isn't as far fetched as some make it out to be. Bragg and Co. have to make the connections for the jury. Just because it is a weak case doesn't mean there isn't a case.
Weak at best. But what isn’t in dispute is that it is unprecedented. Like the $450M circus a couple months ago, totally unprecedented. The decision to prosecute the case has nothing to do with law and everything to do with winning an election.
 
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You are right that states don't have ability to enforce federal election campaign finance laws.

But...Is your position that state laws don't apply to federal elections? Because NY law explicitly states that their laws apply to federal elections (https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/ELN/1-102). Wouldn't your position be contrary to the very definition of federalism? Help me follow as I am genuinely confused by your statement.

What state law in regards to elections has Bragg applied to Trump in this case? Trump hasn't been charged with a campaign finance violation. He hasn't been charged with anything beyond falsifying records with the "intent to commit some other crime".

What is that "other crime"? That has yet to be revealed. So, what "state election law" are you arguing is the issue, here? If you can ID it (please provide a link to the actual legal document...not somebody's guess), you apparently know more than has been revealed to Trump or his legal team.

This is a clearly partisan pursuit over the definition of "legal expense". A lawyer crafted an NDA, paid the subject, and Trump's own internal checkbook labeled it "legal expense"...After the election...and after any required reporting to the FEC.


Cohen wasn't paid for legal services/advice (no retainer as indicated in the books). He was reimbursed for paying stormy. Nothing about his payments from trump were in relation to legal services rendered. That's a verifiable fact.

How do you know that? Cohen's payment from Trump was above & beyond whatever he paid to Daniels. You're wishcasting, here. The trial itself has already shown that this type of legal service is something that Cohen did repeatedly. Cohen literally orchestrated a legal contract in the form of an NDA...and that's not a "legal service"? Really? A lawyer completing a legal contract? Really?

What is the "verifiable fact" you're talking about?

Cohen pled guilty to count #8 ( excessive campaign contributions at the direction of someone in the trump campaign). Was it trump? If so that might get to intent to commit conspiracy.

Nothing about Cohen's guilty plea is relevant to Trump because Trump can't provide excessive campaign contributions to himself. Cohen was also dealing w/ other non-Trump-related issues (Taxi Medallions) when he was caught up in this.

Cohen's guilt of something doesn't prove Trump's guilt of anything.

I'm not rendering a guilty or not guilty verdict at this point (I think there is still reasonable doubt of trump's involvement in a conspiracy/directing the falsification of records). But the thought isn't as far fetched as some make it out to be. Bragg and Co. have to make the connections for the jury. Just because it is a weak case doesn't mean there isn't a case.

I've already addressed every issue w/ this case in a previous thread. I'm not interested in rehashing it. The legal theory here is very thin, at best. But, it's clear it's about damaging a POTUS candidate, keeping him from campaigning, and thrown red meat at those that want to "get" Trump.

They seem to not even care that much of this will clearly be thrown out in an appeal. This entire trial is an embarrassment to our legal system....and several "liberal" legal minds have expressed that same opinion.
 
What state law in regards to elections has Bragg applied to Trump in this case? Trump hasn't been charged with a campaign finance violation. He hasn't been charged with anything beyond falsifying records with the "intent to commit some other crime".

What is that "other crime"? That has yet to be revealed. So, what "state election law" are you arguing is the issue, here? If you can ID it (please provide a link to the actual legal document...not somebody's guess), you apparently know more than has been revealed to Trump or his legal team.

This is a clearly partisan pursuit over the definition of "legal expense". A lawyer crafted an NDA, paid the subject, and Trump's own internal checkbook labeled it "legal expense"...After the election...and after any required reporting to the FEC.




How do you know that? Cohen's payment from Trump was above & beyond whatever he paid to Daniels. You're wishcasting, here. The trial itself has already shown that this type of legal service is something that Cohen did repeatedly. Cohen literally orchestrated a legal contract in the form of an NDA...and that's not a "legal service"? Really? A lawyer completing a legal contract? Really?

What is the "verifiable fact" you're talking about?



Nothing about Cohen's guilty plea is relevant to Trump because Trump can't provide excessive campaign contributions to himself. Cohen was also dealing w/ other non-Trump-related issues (Taxi Medallions) when he was caught up in this.

Cohen's guilt of something doesn't prove Trump's guilt of anything.



I've already addressed every issue w/ this case in a previous thread. I'm not interested in rehashing it. The legal theory here is very thin, at best. But, it's clear it's about damaging a POTUS candidate, keeping him from campaigning, and thrown red meat at those that want to "get" Trump.

They seem to not even care that much of this will clearly be thrown out in an appeal. This entire trial is an embarrassment to our legal system....and several "liberal" legal minds have expressed that same opinion.
Worse, they don't care about the irreparable damage being done to the country. All for politics and power.
 
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What state law in regards to elections has Bragg applied to Trump in this case? Trump hasn't been charged with a campaign finance violation. He hasn't been charged with anything beyond falsifying records with the "intent to commit some other crime".

What is that "other crime"? That has yet to be revealed. So, what "state election law" are you arguing is the issue, here? If you can ID it (please provide a link to the actual legal document...not somebody's guess), you apparently know more than has been revealed to Trump or his legal team
Trump's team and the court are aware and have been aware for a year since the bill of particulars was filed in this case:


Page 4 of the bill of particulars lays out from defense: what "other crimes were committed?"; Answer: "you're not entitled to know, but it may include violations to 17-152"



Not sure what else I can provide here. If Trumps team didn't know the "other crimes" answer then he is screwed.
 
Trump's team and the court are aware and have been aware for a year since the bill of particulars was filed in this case:


Page 4 of the bill of particulars lays out from defense: what "other crimes were committed?"; Answer: "you're not entitled to know, but it may include violations to 17-152"



Not sure what else I can provide here. If Trumps team didn't know the "other crimes" answer then he is screwed.

What are those "other crimes"?

There are several legal scholars wondering what they are & the entire point of creating a felony out of a misdemeanor. So......what is it? Details, please. Not links to legal documents w/ no specifics.
 
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If Trumps team didn't know the "other crimes" answer then he is screwed.

That's the point. The defense has asked & the judge has not forced the prosecution to reveal.

You're making my point.

(also...so where is that "state election law about a federal election" violation you referenced above?)
 
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What are those "other crimes"?

There are several legal scholars wondering what they are & the entire point of creating a felony out of a misdemeanor. So......what?
They are outlined in the statement of facts and supported by the bill of particulars citing multiple code sections. It's likely these have been/will be argued in closing arguments. The prosecution is not going to lay out their case in public to help a defendant build his case. That's what discovery is for.

There are also legal scholars that think it's an interesting strategy that likely results in conviction...🤷‍♂️

These scholara are mentioned on the article provided.


That's the point. The defense as asked & the judge has not forced the prosecution to reveal.

You're making my point.
It's probably buried in the millions of pages given to them in discovery. If they didn't prep that's on them.
 
They are outlined in the statement of facts and supported by the bill of particulars citing multiple code sections. It's likely these have been/will be argued in closing arguments. The prosecution is not going to lay out their case in public to help a defendant build his case. That's what discovery is for.

There are also legal scholars that think it's an interesting strategy that likely results in conviction...🤷‍♂️

These scholara are mentioned on the article provided.



It's probably buried in the millions of pages given to them in discovery. If they didn't prep that's on them.

So...what is that crime? Pointing to an "outlined statement of facts" isn't providing the information I'm requesting.

I'm far from the only person asking this. This is a huge point of contention. It's been discussed & pointed out by "legal experts" discussing this case. Bragg has not identified what the crime was that elevates an alleged misdemeanor to a felony. I've previously provided several links and/or discussion pointing this out.

The "legal world" is literally waiting for this detail.

So, again: What is it?
 
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They are outlined in the statement of facts and supported by the bill of particulars citing multiple code sections. It's likely these have been/will be argued in closing arguments. The prosecution is not going to lay out their case in public to help a defendant build his case. That's what discovery is for.

There are also legal scholars that think it's an interesting strategy that likely results in conviction...🤷‍♂️

These scholara are mentioned on the article provided.



It's probably buried in the millions of pages given to them in discovery. If they didn't prep that's on them.

I'm going to help you out here: You can't provide what I'm asking because Bragg has yet to do so.

Is that weird? Yes.

Should that have already been revealed? Yes.

Has this ever happened before? No.

This is a circus.
 
I'm going to help you out here: You can't provide what I'm asking because Bragg has yet to do so.

Is that weird? Yes.

Should that have already been revealed? Yes.

Has this ever happened before? No.

This is a circus.
Trump is denied his right of confrontation bc Bragg hasn't spelled out the actual crime. He's also denied his right to defend himself when Merchan refused to let him call as a witness the former head of the FEC to testify no campaign finance violation occurred. Then, the clown denies a mistrial when the hooker defied his instructions and contradicted her prior statements and testified about things that had nothing to do with the trial.

This travesty makes Jim Crow era prosecutions of innocent blacks look tame.
 
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