A word on yesterday. Trump set this in motion and Biden finished the deal...

[BigDaddyDawgBreath]

It was fairly disgusting for me to hear both on TV last night blaming the other as fast as possible.

Trump was the one who negotiated directly with the Taliban and cut out the Afghan government. Trump. Anybody with a grasp of the situation could predict where that would lead.

Biden has catastrophically mishandled the end stage. Epic incompetence.

Both are equally guilty of favoring a vacuous talking point ("ending the endless war") over good policy. If either had leveled with Americans that a long term, low risk counterterrorism mission would prevent exactly what has happened I think the people would have accepted that.

We have been in Europe and Japan since 1945. More civilian Americans died from foreign enemy operations planned and executed from within Afghanistan than all other nations combined since... when? Hard to name an equal example. The War of 1812?

I don't expect it to change a single mind but honesty requires being straightforward about how we got here and it is on both of those men, and our vacuous and unserious approach to the world IMO.

Hurts badly to see what happened.

 

[atlanta cock#]

At the moment, I hate every Dem and everyone who voted for Biden.

 

[nice marmot]

Hurts badly to see what happened.

agreed. I have been (mostly) tuning it out after the initial discussion which was very productive and respectful on here. ITT I posted this, which is about how I feel about the blame game:

 

[BigDaddyDawgBreath]

At the moment, I hate every Dem and everyone who voted for Biden.

Hate fixes few things. But I will say I was freaking furious watching Biden make a silly sarcastic remark last night to Doocy from FoxNews during the press conference.

Yesterday 13 members (so far) died in a terrible way. That he would make a sarcastic remark on that day said volumes about where his priorities lay yesterday.

Simply could not listen to Trump bloviate. Turned the channel quick.

 

[JackRussellDawg]

Hate fixes few things. But I will say I was freaking furious watching Biden make a silly sarcastic remark last night to Doocy from FoxNews during the press conference.

Yesterday 13 members (so far) died in a terrible way. That he would make a sarcastic remark on that day said volumes about where his priorities lay yesterday.

Simply could not listen to Trump bloviate. Turned the channel quick.

Your hate for Trump has clouded your judgment. This shit storm ain’t on Trump, no where close. It’s all on Biden & Co.

 

[Opus X Dawg]

Your hate for Trump has clouded your judgment. This shit storm ain’t on Trump, no where close. It’s all on Biden & Co.

Agree this isn't on Trump. Biden had 7 months to change course and he didn't. He had no problem reversing any other Trump directives. This is ALL on Biden. Arguments can be made that previous presidents erred in sending us there, and keeping us there, but when Biden took office we were there. It is his to manage, and he has F'd it up. Now his incompetence has costs the lives of Americans and our allies.

 

[morris123]

If you blame Biden and Trump equally your head is not in the game. Trump had the agreement Feb. 29. On March 4 taliban started acting up and combat ensued. This was an agreement if the Taliban live up to it. No date was set in stone like Biden has done. No vaccume would have been created with the correct departure. Troops go last. And of course you keep the other airfield BASE!

 

[oldmandawg]

This wood never have happened under Trump. It wood have been a clean break, not this chit.

 

[RoyDawgMercer]

It was fairly disgusting for me to hear both on TV last night blaming the other as fast as possible.

Trump was the one who negotiated directly with the Taliban and cut out the Afghan government. Trump. Anybody with a grasp of the situation could predict where that would lead.

Biden has catastrophically mishandled the end stage. Epic incompetence.

Both are equally guilty of favoring a vacuous talking point ("ending the endless war") over good policy. If either had leveled with Americans that a long term, low risk counterterrorism mission would prevent exactly what has happened I think the people would have accepted that.

We have been in Europe and Japan since 1945. More civilian Americans died from foreign enemy operations planned and executed from within Afghanistan than all other nations combined since... when? Hard to name an equal example. The War of 1812?

I don't expect it to change a single mind but honesty requires being straightforward about how we got here and it is on both of those men, and our vacuous and unserious approach to the world IMO.

Hurts badly to see what happened.

The decision to initiate withdrawal of military forces rests with the Commander In Chief. That said, NO president gets into the weeds of a military withdrawal. Never have. ( Look no further than S Vietnam) They leave the details up to the military planners and officers plus State Dept. to work out. I definitely don’t like the losses but gonna wait to find out how or what planning was implemented before assigning blame if any is warranted. After Donnie negotiated with the Taliban at Camp David it’s also possible we were double crossed. I’m betting we were assured by someone in Afghanistan beforehand the US / allies would be allowed adequate time to evacuate everyone. Gonna wait a while for the facts to score out.

 

[230hallst]

The decision to initiate withdrawal of military forces rests with the Commander In Chief. That said, NO president gets into the weeds of a military withdrawal. Never have. ( Look no further than S Vietnam) They leave the details up to the military planners and officers plus State Dept. to work out. I definitely don’t like the losses but gonna wait to find out how or what planning was implemented before assigning blame if any is warranted. After Donnie negotiated with the Taliban at Camp David it’s also possible we were double crossed. I’m betting we were assured by someone in Afghanistan beforehand the US / allies would be allowed adequate time to evacuate everyone. Gonna wait a while for the facts to score out.

Pulling the troops out before civilians is the weeds of it?

 

[doerunn]

Your hate for Trump has clouded your judgment. This shit storm ain’t on Trump, no where close. It’s all on Biden & Co.

Heard today, obummer and bigot biden, paid 5 million and 5 prisoners to the taliban for bo bergdhal. Plus the 2 soldiers killed looking for him, after he deserted.

 

[doerunn]

The decision to initiate withdrawal of military forces rests with the Commander In Chief. That said, NO president gets into the weeds of a military withdrawal. Never have. ( Look no further than S Vietnam) They leave the details up to the military planners and officers plus State Dept. to work out. I definitely don’t like the losses but gonna wait to find out how or what planning was implemented before assigning blame if any is warranted. After Donnie negotiated with the Taliban at Camp David it’s also possible we were double crossed. I’m betting we were assured by someone in Afghanistan beforehand the US / allies would be allowed adequate time to evacuate everyone. Gonna wait a while for the facts to score out.

You are wrong, as usual, the military wanted to do it the right way. The bigot in chief and the state dept set this in motion. The taliban actually set the timeline and how the withdrawal takes place. They threatened to start acting up again, if that happened biden could not withdrawal if they were actively attacking our troops.

 

[BigDaddyDawgBreath]

If you blame Biden and Trump equally your head is not in the game. Trump had the agreement Feb. 29. On March 4 taliban started acting up and combat ensued. This was an agreement if the Taliban live up to it. No date was set in stone like Biden has done. No vaccume would have been created with the correct departure. Troops go last. And of course you keep the other airfield BASE!

I have been to that country. Spent a long time researching it before, during and after. That doesn't mean I am right but my beliefs are based on directly talking to many hundreds of Afghans at several levels from mud huts to provincial leadership.

I think that means my head is at least in the game since I played it for keeps.

When Trump met directly with the Taliban and cut out the government that was supposed to hold as we left he set in motion the lightning collapse of the government. Biden has royally screwed it up too but if you know how Afghans think (Trump apparently did not) you could see this coming from a country mile.

Ultimately both are to blame for failing to lead and instead playing politics with a silly slogan. IMO men died for it yesterday and more may die yet.

Because what happens when we are completely gone and they attack us from there again. They literally did it yesterday with us still there. The risk is strong. Leon Panetta has been bold enough to say publicly he thinks it likely we will be back there fighting again. Coming from a major Democratic figure like him that should raise alarm bells. The Democrats are trying to close ranks right now and he is having none of it.

Except this time without bases and with the other side better armed.

People can disagree in good faith but to just dismiss what I am saying here as if I am uneducated on the topic is not correct.

 

[LochDawg]

Heard today, obummer and bigot biden, paid 5 million and 5 prisoners to the taliban for bo bergdhal. Plus the 2 soldiers killed looking for him, after he deserted.

cnn said it was worth it to not leave a soldier behind…opinion piece 2015

 

[BigDaddyDawgBreath]

If you blame Biden and Trump equally your head is not in the game. Trump had the agreement Feb. 29. On March 4 taliban started acting up and combat ensued. This was an agreement if the Taliban live up to it. No date was set in stone like Biden has done. No vaccume would have been created with the correct departure. Troops go last. And of course you keep the other airfield BASE!

Check this.

And I agree giving up Bagram made little sense.

Leon Panetta says US forces will have to return to Afghanistan

Leon Panetta said on Thursday that the Unites States military will have to return to Afghanistan to tackle terror threats posed by Taliban and ISIS-K after a suicide attack killed 13 U.S. troops.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[LochDawg]

Meanwhile in Turkmenistan 🇹🇲…


Next up for Afghanistan 🇦🇫 , an India 🇮🇳 v China 🇨🇳 quasi involvement while Pakistan 🇵🇰 messes around a bit too… India v china, India v pakistan…with pakistan and china being sort of buddies…

meanwhile Russia 🇷🇺 stands by in Tajikistan 🇹🇯 , and Uzbekistan 🇺🇿 with those two countries for border watching.


Turkmenistan 🇹🇲 says ugh we will
stay over here since we have the Gate to Hell


iran 🇮🇷 says well hmm

 

[PotimusWillie]

It was fairly disgusting for me to hear both on TV last night blaming the other as fast as possible.

Trump was the one who negotiated directly with the Taliban and cut out the Afghan government. Trump. Anybody with a grasp of the situation could predict where that would lead.

Biden has catastrophically mishandled the end stage. Epic incompetence.

Both are equally guilty of favoring a vacuous talking point ("ending the endless war") over good policy. If either had leveled with Americans that a long term, low risk counterterrorism mission would prevent exactly what has happened I think the people would have accepted that.

We have been in Europe and Japan since 1945. More civilian Americans died from foreign enemy operations planned and executed from within Afghanistan than all other nations combined since... when? Hard to name an equal example. The War of 1812?

I don't expect it to change a single mind but honesty requires being straightforward about how we got here and it is on both of those men, and our vacuous and unserious approach to the world IMO.

Hurts badly to see what happened.

First of all, you have no idea what you are talking about. The “contract” between Afghan and Taliban leaders had nothing to do with how this was handled.

What the Trump admin negotiated would have prevented this. It specifically provided the US with military authority to stay, and when withdrawn, the authority to resume military procedures.

What we have just witnessed has no connection to what the US was planning through the Trump Admin

The Taliban, ISIS and Al Queda only pursue when opponent is perceived weak or unable to respond. That is the Muhammad game plan. You take weakness and back away from strength.

If Trump had been the sitting President, the Taliban would not have taken key cities prior to Kabal and most of the Taliban aggression would have been thawarted by Trump’s strength. They knew he would have taken them out immediately.

Weakness does not control religious jihad. Only strength and might. After the press conference yesterday, expect an attack on our mainland. Radical Muslim aggression is not logical or calculating. They will attack until force is shown back. Our President is incapable of rational imaginative thought.

 

[BigDaddyDawgBreath]

First of all, you have no idea what you are talking about. The “contract” between Afghan and Taliban leaders had nothing to do with how this was handled.

What the Trump admin negotiated would have prevented this. It specifically provided the US with military authority to stay, and when withdrawn, the authority to resume military procedures.

What we have just witnessed has no connection to what the US was planning through the Trump Admin

The Taliban, ISIS and Al Queda only pursue when opponent is perceived weak or unable to respond. That is the Muhammad game plan. You take weakness and back away from strength.

If Trump had been the sitting President, the Taliban would not have taken key cities prior to Kabal and most of the Taliban aggression would have been thawarted by Trump’s strength. They knew he would have taken them out immediately.

Weakness does not control religious jihad. Only strength and might. After the press conference yesterday, expect an attack on our mainland. Radical Muslim aggression is not logical or calculating. They will attack until force is shown back. Our President is incapable of rational imaginative thought.

Have you been to Afghanistan? I have. Met with about 1,000 Afghans of all levels running a project with the Naval Postgraduate School to map real life there. What really mattered. How shit really got done.

Have you done that?

Got shot at, shot back at folks, about got blown up a few times, and almost got squashed by a couple helos.

That doesn't make my opinions right but I think it adds to them. So perhaps you shouldn't come across so scolding in your manner. Maybe?

Some so reflexively defend Trump they lose all objectivity. So I ask you to please explain how Trump starting the process of removing us from Afghanistan (particularly by cutting out the legitimate government there) did not cause a large portion of this problem?

 

[atlanta cock#]

I have been to that country. Spent a long time researching it before, during and after. That doesn't mean I am right but my beliefs are based on directly talking to many hundreds of Afghans at several levels from mud huts to provincial leadership.

I think that means my head is at least in the game since I played it for keeps.

When Trump met directly with the Taliban and cut out the government that was supposed to hold as we left he set in motion the lightning collapse of the government. Biden has royally screwed it up too but if you know how Afghans think (Trump apparently did not) you could see this coming from a country mile.

Ultimately both are to blame for failing to lead and instead playing politics with a silly slogan. IMO men died for it yesterday and more may die yet.

Because what happens when we are completely gone and they attack us from there again. They literally did it yesterday with us still there. The risk is strong. Leon Panetta has been bold enough to say publicly he thinks it likely we will be back there fighting again. Coming from a major Democratic figure like him that should raise alarm bells. The Democrats are trying to close ranks right now and he is having none of it.

Except this time without bases and with the other side better armed.

People can disagree in good faith but to just dismiss what I am saying here as if I am uneducated on the topic is not correct.

We couldn’t keep going in the same manner. 20 years with constantly changing goals simply doesn’t work. Our military is designed to roll roughshod over anything in its way. It’s not designed for nation building. Trump negotiated a deal that had teeth and could be changed on a dime. He inherited a situation that he actually opposed back on Day 1. If you don’t like the way he cut out a corrupt Afghan Govt, that’s your prerogative. But no options were good, and Joementia handled it as badly as humanly possible.

 

[BigDaddyDawgBreath]

We couldn’t keep going in the same manner. 20 years with constantly changing goals simply doesn’t work. Our military is designed to roll roughshod over anything in its way. It’s not designed for nation building. Trump negotiated a deal that had teeth and could be changed on a dime. He inherited a situation that he actually opposed back on Day 1. If you don’t like the way he cut out a corrupt Afghan Govt, that’s your prerogative. But no options were good, and Joementia handled it as badly as humanly possible.

Our military actually is specifically trained to do what we were doing in Afghanistan before the retreat, which was counterinsurgency and counterterrorism (particularly counterrorism).

In fact both of those are part of the SOF core competencies that SOCOM is built around. Counterinsurgency is Foreign Internal Defense (or FID) and CT is straight up spelled out (see link below).

"The Forever War" was the victory of left wing anti-war rhetoric eventually taken up by contrarian Trump over sound policy and much historical precedent. IMO men have already died because of it with a high chance of more deaths to come.

USSOCOM

www.socom.mil

 

[PotimusWillie]

Have you been to Afghanistan? I have. Met with about 1,000 Afghans of all levels running a project with the Naval Postgraduate School to map real life there. What really mattered. How shit really got done.

Have you done that?

Got shot at, shot back at folks, about got blown up a few times, and almost got squashed by a couple helos.

That doesn't make my opinions right but I think it adds to them. So perhaps you shouldn't come across so scolding in your manner. Maybe?

Some so reflexively defend Trump they lose all objectivity. So I ask you to please explain how Trump starting the process of removing us from Afghanistan (particularly by cutting out the legitimate government there) did not cause a large portion of this problem?

Good info.

I appreciate your service.

I also don’t believe one must live a situation to understand truth regarding contracts and agreements.

The Trump admin agreement afforded our country with the authority in how and when we leave.

When someone wants to sell a house, do you just move and leave your belongings, or do you plan removal.

And if your children and elderly Father in Law live with you, you don’t leave them there then send for them.

Planning to leave and a plan on how to leave are two different processes.

Read what the agreement stated.

 

[phoenixdawg]

I have been to that country. Spent a long time researching it before, during and after. That doesn't mean I am right but my beliefs are based on directly talking to many hundreds of Afghans at several levels from mud huts to provincial leadership.

I think that means my head is at least in the game since I played it for keeps.

When Trump met directly with the Taliban and cut out the government that was supposed to hold as we left he set in motion the lightning collapse of the government. Biden has royally screwed it up too but if you know how Afghans think (Trump apparently did not) you could see this coming from a country mile.

Ultimately both are to blame for failing to lead and instead playing politics with a silly slogan. IMO men died for it yesterday and more may die yet.

Because what happens when we are completely gone and they attack us from there again. They literally did it yesterday with us still there. The risk is strong. Leon Panetta has been bold enough to say publicly he thinks it likely we will be back there fighting again. Coming from a major Democratic figure like him that should raise alarm bells. The Democrats are trying to close ranks right now and he is having none of it.

Except this time without bases and with the other side better armed.

People can disagree in good faith but to just dismiss what I am saying here as if I am uneducated on the topic is not correct.

You and I have treaded some of the same ground, but to put this on Trump because of an agreement he entered into when old joe has decided to unilaterally act against other Trump policies through executive fiat is disingenuous. Joe owns this, he could have easily failed to recognize the Trump deal. Joe wanted to win political points by exiting pre 9-11 and it has been an epic fail. Trump might have been an idiot but he was an America first idiot.

 

[BigDaddyDawgBreath]

You and I have treaded some of the same ground, but to put this on Trump because of an agreement he entered into when old joe has decided to unilaterally act against other Trump policies through executive fiat is disingenuous. Joe owns this, he could have easily failed to recognize the Trump deal. Joe wanted to win political points by exiting pre 9-11 and it has been an epic fail. Trump might have been an idiot but he was an America first idiot.

Yes, common dirt chewed I think

I know enough of your background I will not dispute you publicly. But I damn sure would like to turn on the beer lamp and get into this.

Not that you do, but do not think I am defending Biden. Utter incompetence by him and his team. Just saw Blinken on TV saying "those left behind who can't fly because airport might get shut down can still drive out".

I thought "Mr Blinken needs to be in the first bus pulling out on the summer drive to Peshawar".