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Oh man 300 pages of classified material...wow...Stop the steal right guys....stop Trump stealing classif🤣🤣🤣🤣

The situation is more nuanced for the reasons I listed, but I understand that in your world this is literally the fight between good and evil. No doubt this limits any potential dialogue on the topic.

With all due respect, you obviously view the fight between Trump/his supporters and his opponents as a "fight between good and evil" as well.

You've been open about considering Trump a fascist and consider him one of (if not the) biggest domestic threats that the US faces today.

Given that, do you really feel you're qualified to give an open-minded, nuanced take?
 
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With all due respect, you obviously view the fight between Trump/his supporters and his opponents as a "fight between good and evil" as well.

You've been open about considering Trump a fascist and consider him one of (if not the) biggest domestic threats that the US faces today.

Given that, do you really feel you're qualified to give an open-minded, nuanced take?
That's an interesting question that goes to the root of how a person thinks about the concepts of good and evil and how those beliefs reflect one's faith.

I can assure you I don't frame any political discourse in this country as a battle between good and evil, and I don't believe I carry a "righteous sword" because I have God in my corner. In fact, in my view people who think that way are a big part of the problems we are currently facing in this country. We would all benefit from more "golden rule" and a lot less "smite thine enemy".

I do believe Trump is venal, damaged, narcissistic and self-serving. I actually have a much bigger issue with the majority of the republican leadership that also views Trump this way but they support him purely for purpose of political expediency. But do i think they are evil? No, I save that word for larger transgressions than that.

Human nature hasn't really changed over the last several thousand years (if ever) and greed, lust, envy and pride are extremely well represented amongst all flavors of the the political class. You are right that I see Trumpism as a threat to our democracy and given the numerous efforts made to keep Trump in power I am well justified in my belief. That said, I'll save discussions of good and evil for a more metaphysical discussion.
 
That's an interesting question that goes to the root of how a person thinks about the concepts of good and evil and how those beliefs reflect one's faith.

I can assure you I don't frame any political discourse in this country as a battle between good and evil, and I don't believe I carry a "righteous sword" because I have God in my corner. In fact, in my view people who think that way are a big part of the problems we are currently facing in this country. We would all benefit from more "golden rule" and a lot less "smite thine enemy".

I do believe Trump is venal, damaged, narcissistic and self-serving. I actually have a much bigger issue with the majority of the republican leadership that also views Trump this way but they support him purely for purpose of political expediency. But do i think they are evil? No, I save that word for larger transgressions than that.

Human nature hasn't really changed over the last several thousand years (if ever) and greed, lust, envy and pride are extremely well represented amongst all flavors of the the political class. You are right that I see Trumpism as a threat to our democracy and given the numerous efforts made to keep Trump in power I am well justified in my belief. That said, I'll save discussions of good and evil for a more metaphysical discussion.

So you think that other people here view these issues through the lens of "good vs evil", but you yourself do not?

I would say that those who feel Trump is an arrogant fascist and that Biden is a senile socialist are two sides of the same coin, at worst. Very difficult to draw a distinction there regarding why one belief would indicate its holder carrying a "righteous sword", and the other would not.

As for your gripes with GOP leadership, I'm sure you have the same contempt for the Dem leadership that supports their own anti-Semites like Ilhan Omar in order to maintain their own political expediency, right?

The rest of the Trump stuff isn't worth getting into, no one's mind is getting changed there.
 
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So you think that other people here view these issues through the lens of "good vs evil", but you yourself do not?

I would say that those who feel Trump is an arrogant fascist and that Biden is a senile socialist are two sides of the same coin, at worst. Very difficult to draw a distinction there regarding why one belief would indicate its holder carrying a "righteous sword", and the other would not.

As for your gripes with GOP leadership, I'm sure you have the same contempt for the Dem leadership that supports their own anti-Semites like Ilhan Omar in order to maintain their own political expediency, right?

The rest of the Trump stuff isn't worth getting into, no one's mind is getting changed there.
Trump is arrogant and Biden is senile; I think even most of their ardent supporters would agree or they should. The leadership of both parties is terrible, last one I thought that had any real qualities was Paul Ryan and he was smart enough to get out of politics.
 
Trump is arrogant and Biden is senile; I think even most of their ardent supporters would agree or they should. The leadership of both parties is terrible, last one I thought that had any real qualities was Paul Ryan and he was smart enough to get out of politics.
I think we are all just about done with the gerontocracy, but it's the corporate cash that keeps them at the top.

1) campaign finance reform.
2) total reversal of Citizens United through legislation or legal means (I don't know what the latter would look like)
3) term limits, and not just for members of congress and senators but for Supreme Court Justices.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
 
The situation is more nuanced for the reasons I listed, but I understand that in your world this is literally the fight between good and evil. No doubt this limits any potential dialogue on the topic.
No meaningful dialogue can be had with you are any other dim, you all only listen to dim talking points and liberal media. I'm not looking for anything from you but same sad untrue excuses offered by the lefty spin machine. Wipe it with bleach bit, smash it with a hammer, shred it with a shredder, its all nuanced for you because to admit she was treated differently would spoil your dim slanted and false view. Your post all follow the same theme. You still believe the russia HOAX. You are brainwashed.
 
So you think that other people here view these issues through the lens of "good vs evil", but you yourself do not?

I would say that those who feel Trump is an arrogant fascist and that Biden is a senile socialist are two sides of the same coin, at worst. Very difficult to draw a distinction there regarding why one belief would indicate its holder carrying a "righteous sword", and the other would not.

As for your gripes with GOP leadership, I'm sure you have the same contempt for the Dem leadership that supports their own anti-Semites like Ilhan Omar in order to maintain their own political expediency, right?

The rest of the Trump stuff isn't worth getting into, no one's mind is getting changed there.
Respectfully, this is utter BS. My initial comment was a response to @cherrydawg, and he and a few others on here who regularly accuse those who disagree with them of being evil.

I like to be fact based when possible, so I searched cherrydawgs posts to see if my perception was fair. Here are some greatest hits:
  • demented perverted evil dims
  • That party is evil and voters for that party support that evil.
  • anti America evil you spew
  • evil anti American party
  • the party of evil
  • He is an evil lying anti America, self enriching pedophile piece of crap.
  • the evil of the dim party
  • I care about the country and vote for the less evil. Dims are nothing put PURE UNADULTERATED EVIL.
  • the evil that is the dimorat party.
Also ran across @orangeisgay with this winner:
  • people dont want to admit the evil that is our government. We are being run by lucifarians who are carrying out their great reset to usher in the man of "peace".
It wouldn't take much time to find plenty more, but I think I've made my point.

So no, my views about Trump and the current republican party are most assuredly not just the other side of the same coin. I can strongly oppose what I believe the republican party currently stands for without invoking accusations of evil.
 
Respectfully, this is utter BS. My initial comment was a response to @cherrydawg, and he and a few others on here who regularly accuse those who disagree with them of being evil.

I like to be fact based when possible, so I searched cherrydawgs posts to see if my perception was fair. Here are some greatest hits:
  • demented perverted evil dims
  • That party is evil and voters for that party support that evil.
  • anti America evil you spew
  • evil anti American party
  • the party of evil
  • He is an evil lying anti America, self enriching pedophile piece of crap.
  • the evil of the dim party
  • I care about the country and vote for the less evil. Dims are nothing put PURE UNADULTERATED EVIL.
  • the evil that is the dimorat party.
Also ran across @orangeisgay with this winner:
  • people dont want to admit the evil that is our government. We are being run by lucifarians who are carrying out their great reset to usher in the man of "peace".
It wouldn't take much time to find plenty more, but I think I've made my point.

So no, my views about Trump and the current republican party are most assuredly not just the other side of the same coin. I can strongly oppose what I believe the republican party currently stands for without invoking accusations of evil.

You didn't answer my questions (either of them), and the post is hardly BS. I think you misunderstood my point - it wasn't that other people don't view politics through the lens of "good vs evil", it's that you view politics through the same lens, but refuse to admit it for some reason.

You think Trump is a fascist who is destroying (or attempting to destroy) the fabric of American democracy, but continually refuse to acknowledge the misdeeds of the left. In fact, you have openly praised Biden for things that many people have rightfully called him out for.

Aside from the fact that the US isn't a democracy, your political views are clearly held through the lens of "good vs evil", even if you don't literally use the word "evil" like cherry and others do.
 
According to the NYT, they knew about the papers back in January. And took them, how long to get them? 8 months? There’s some serious incompetence right there.
Incorrect. In January Archives knew there were an unknown number of classified docs among the many boxes stolen from the WH by Orange Jesus. Just didn't know which exact boxes so originally took most all they could locate in Florida. The latest search was for ADDITIONAL classified docs, among other documents, that a Trumper ratted out to the FBI. Two separate situations. Donnie is likely guilty of a number of offenses in his inappropriate handling of sensitive / classified information. A judge has notified The Trumpster he has until Friday to come up with legitimate reasons why he needs a Special Master to examine the docs.
 
Yet you say the docs are worthy of a raid ?
Yes I do say that.

The letter confirms Trump was told by NARA the first batch of materials contained "over 100 documents with classification markings, comprising more than 700 pages. Some include the highest levels of classification, including Special Access Program (SAP) materials."
 
Nm


Do you cavalierly think this post is somehow, on some level clever or funny? Do you not grasp the seriousness of this situation.... to ALL OF US? That a single page of highly classified material could have the potential to end lives... possibly a LOT of lives? This isn't some joke. It's not about politics. The reason documents ar classified is it's deadly serious stuff that your safety depends upon. Jeeze.
 
Do you cavalierly think this post is somehow, on some level clever or funny? Do you not grasp the seriousness of this situation.... to ALL OF US? That a single page of highly classified material could have the potential to end lives... possibly a LOT of lives? This isn't some joke. It's not about politics. The reason documents ar classified is it's deadly serious stuff that your safety depends upon. Jeeze.

Regardless of this current Trump issue: That’s both overly dramatic outside of a few rare exceptions and a poor understanding of why information is classified.

Your post sounded more like a poorly-written movie pitch.

 
Do you cavalierly think this post is somehow, on some level clever or funny? Do you not grasp the seriousness of this situation.... to ALL OF US? That a single page of highly classified material could have the potential to end lives... possibly a LOT of lives? This isn't some joke. It's not about politics. The reason documents ar classified is it's deadly serious stuff that your safety depends upon. Jeeze.
1) Single page and 2) I agree extremely serious stuff here
 
I think you know & agree: It all depends on what it actually was. Not all "classification" (regardless of "level") is created equal.
Oh I 100% agree, over classification is a huge issue and pain in the a$$...that said they've been asking for these documents back from Trump since January. His lawyers signed a sworn document no classified marked material is located at Mar, that was June. These excuses for why there would be classified material 1) was a plant 2) President had a standing order to declassify material he took from the WH (laughable) 3) Obama did it too (Nope) 4) All Presidents do it to write the memoirs to now 5) was only a page. If this is a case of the coverup being worse than the crime then its the greatest own goal in history.
 
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I stand corrected, with the caveat that the answer is more nuanced than a simple yes or no on the presence of classified documents, given the majority of the documents in Hillary's emails did not have the proper labeling required for all classified documents.

FWIW, the big (and largely ignored, due to lack of understanding, imo) issue w/ the 'unlabeled' documents on Hillary's server was that the only way they got there was that "somebody" willfully removed them from one system and actively added them to another.

Furthermore, they had to actively remove the 'classification' for two reasons:

1. That's the only way they conceivably could have transferred them electronically to a lower classification network (HIGHLY unlikely...the tools to do that are much smarter than that & don't allow it). This is barely even a possibility.

2. To attempt to hide what they were, for the sake of the private server.

Either way, it was absolutely in violation of multiple criminal statutes to actively remove the data/documents from a higher-classification system to a lower one & to remove the corresponding labels.

There is literally no way to do this 'accidentally', as the classified networks don't have easy or automatic ability to move them to lower-classified settings. It takes effort & acknowledgment of exactly what you (the user) are doing. Somebody knew what they were doing.
 
He had six copies of the same document that was related to the Clinton administration's performance in the lead in to 9/11. He pled to probation and lost his law license.

Sketchy behaviour, as was often found around the Clintons. I wouldn't doubt Bill and Hillary would attempt to cover up missteps leading up to 9/11. Don't look to me to make excuses for those two.

It is important to note that in 2018 Trump himself significantly increased the penalties for mishandling government documents so a direct comparison of the two situations doesn't hold up.

There is no evidence and no testimony that Hillary had any emails that were categorized in the highest few levels of classification. Trump apparently had multiple documents at the two highest levels of classification, he has now demonstrated that he knew he had the documents, and he refused multiple opportunities to return them as the law demands.

His current legal argument seems to consist of throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks, which works fantastically for Trump in many instances but probably won't in this one.
Lies, they were originals
The Justice Department initially said Berger only stole copies of classified documents and not originals, but the House Government Reform Committee later revealed that an unsupervised Berger had been given access to classified files of original, uncopied, uninventoried documents on terrorism
 
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Oh I 100% agree, over classification is a huge issue and pain in the a$$...that said they've been asking for these documents back from Trump since January. His lawyers signed a sworn document no classified marked material is located at Mar, that was June. These excuses for why there would be classified material 1) was a plant 2) President had a standing order to declassify material he took from the WH (laughable) 3) Obama did it too (Nope) 4) All Presidents do it to write the memoirs to now 5) was only a page. If this is a case of the coverup being worse than the crime then its the greatest own goal in history.
I'm not here to debate Trump's situation. There is a lot of misinformation & misunderstanding. I do think you've misstated Obama's handling of his own Presidential documents. But, ultimately this will be resolved via statues & not via media narratives (from both sides)
 
Fair enough. I don’t think anyone defends the Clintons at this point.

But this isn’t about the Clintons. What the left doesn’t appreciate and will not acknowledge is that political figures on the left are not investigated and prosecuted in the same manner as political figures on the right.

There are two sets of justice when it comes to political figures.

So be patient with conservatives when these topics come up.

You can’t consider the current Trump situation without viewing it through the lens of blatant past abuses of justice by the FBI and other government entities for purely political purposes.
This times 1 million. And why this is such a joke. The three letter organizations are being used as a political weapon against our own citizens. The spin factor here is so high with the mid terms so close by. It is desperate. I just hope Americans have become less gullible about the intentions from the left. This bill they just passed is a free pass to prison rape the middle class. And it will do nothing to help with inflation. Instead likely making it worse. I just don’t understand how people can be that stupid. But hey, 80 million idiots voted for a man who should be in a nursing home.
 
Regardless of this current Trump issue: That’s both overly dramatic outside of a few rare exceptions and a poor understanding of why information is classified.

Your post sounded more like a poorly-written movie pitch.
RayDawg is good at that. Big bark guy
 
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FWIW, the big (and largely ignored, due to lack of understanding, imo) issue w/ the 'unlabeled' documents on Hillary's server was that the only way they got there was that "somebody" willfully removed them from one system and actively added them to another.

Furthermore, they had to actively remove the 'classification' for two reasons:

1. That's the only way they conceivably could have transferred them electronically to a lower classification network (HIGHLY unlikely...the tools to do that are much smarter than that & don't allow it). This is barely even a possibility.

2. To attempt to hide what they were, for the sake of the private server.

Either way, it was absolutely in violation of multiple criminal statutes to actively remove the data/documents from a higher-classification system to a lower one & to remove the corresponding labels.

There is literally no way to do this 'accidentally', as the classified networks don't have easy or automatic ability to move them to lower-classified settings. It takes effort & acknowledgment of exactly what you (the user) are doing. Somebody knew what they were doing.
I don't doubt you know what you are talking about but... source?
 
I don't doubt you know what you are talking about but... source?
My professional knowledge of the type of info (TS/SI//TK) that was reported on that server.

There were several sources that reported this.
EDIT: Here is a Daily Beast story

But, even if it was only at the "Secret" level, everything I said above is true.

It takes effort to both remove and transport any classified information from a classified network & place it on a non-classified, commercial server.

It's inherent in the systems and only takes a rudimentary level of understanding to ID this. It takes non-accidental effort to transfer the data & to "remove" markings....especially at the levels that were alleged on her server.

It's a basic understanding of how any electronic classified data is handled.
 
I'm not here to debate Trump's situation. There is a lot of misinformation & misunderstanding. I do think you've misstated Obama's handling of his own Presidential documents. But, ultimately this will be resolved via statues & not via media narratives (from both sides)
Again I agree 100% and I'm not here to debate Obama's role in the current controversy. The lies about Presidential powers concerning classification got out of hand. I agree as information is released we can make more informed DawgChat posts on the topic.
 
FWIW, the big (and largely ignored, due to lack of understanding, imo) issue w/ the 'unlabeled' documents on Hillary's server was that the only way they got there was that "somebody" willfully removed them from one system and actively added them to another.

Furthermore, they had to actively remove the 'classification' for two reasons:

1. That's the only way they conceivably could have transferred them electronically to a lower classification network (HIGHLY unlikely...the tools to do that are much smarter than that & don't allow it). This is barely even a possibility.

2. To attempt to hide what they were, for the sake of the private server.

Either way, it was absolutely in violation of multiple criminal statutes to actively remove the data/documents from a higher-classification system to a lower one & to remove the corresponding labels.

There is literally no way to do this 'accidentally', as the classified networks don't have easy or automatic ability to move them to lower-classified settings. It takes effort & acknowledgment of exactly what you (the user) are doing. Somebody knew what they were doing.
Simple copy/paste error. Happens to all of us just like the occasional "reply all" email.

😉
 
funny watching the dems continue to hate Trump and the weakness in the case against him, while overlooking anything a dem candidate has done wrong.

Dems would literally bitch, whine complain and demand jail for trump for something so simple throwing used gum on the sidewalk, if the Chinese were simultaneously landing on the shores of the west coast with their military for a full scale invasion.

They don't show a care in the world for over 5 million illegals haveing invaded our country since capton dementia took over, or that inflation is the highest it has been in a multitude of decades, or that the govt is weaponizing its unelected agencies against its citizens, we can't execute an orderly withdrawal from Afghanistan, the govt working diligently to require digital currency in the near future, food shortages ramping up, unlimited taxpayer funds sent to a corrupt Ukrainian govt, covid vaccines now being proven s a waste of money, with the govt creating and capitalizing on mass fear and hysteria from the public. No, by all means, lets concentrate on trump taking home records which he has plenary power to declassify and stored exactly as the govt offices suggested. yeah lets bitch about that, which refusing to say a peep about obama having in his possession classified documents still in which the archives have been requesting teh return of since he left office, and he still hasn't complied. yep, i'm glad the dems have their priorities straight
Some nuggets here lost in the forest.

1. Time to start a digital currency thread discussing the potential future in context of everything else going on around us. People need to get mentally prepared.

2. To your point, so many people ignore all of the bad happening to the country right now and instead prioritize getting Trump. Further, they don't really care about jail time other than as a means to an end to prevent him from running for office ever again. Now why would anyone fear him running in 2024 when he just lost in a record crushing defeat? Why don't these people who boast about Biden receiving the most votes ever because he wasn't Trump not trust the voters to once again vote for anyone but Trump in 2024? Why are people so worried about 2024 when we're facing so many political problems right now?
 
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Nm


The Hildabeast had 3,300 on her computer and had her computer cleaned to erase the evidence. She and Bill even stole furniture from the White House and had to return it. That’s theft by taking. The difference in what you are reading about President Trump is that the Liberal Media and Dems are using this to keep him from running again. It’s all a sham. Open your eyes. But, you must want their policies in place. Blows my mind how libs can close their eyes to what this administration is trying to do. Make us a Socialist country. But, I guess that’s what you want for your children and grand childre.
 
FWIW, the big (and largely ignored, due to lack of understanding, imo) issue w/ the 'unlabeled' documents on Hillary's server was that the only way they got there was that "somebody" willfully removed them from one system and actively added them to another.

Furthermore, they had to actively remove the 'classification' for two reasons:

1. That's the only way they conceivably could have transferred them electronically to a lower classification network (HIGHLY unlikely...the tools to do that are much smarter than that & don't allow it). This is barely even a possibility.

2. To attempt to hide what they were, for the sake of the private server.

Either way, it was absolutely in violation of multiple criminal statutes to actively remove the data/documents from a higher-classification system to a lower one & to remove the corresponding labels.

There is literally no way to do this 'accidentally', as the classified networks don't have easy or automatic ability to move them to lower-classified settings. It takes effort & acknowledgment of exactly what you (the user) are doing. Somebody knew what they were doing.
Okay, I can't find the rather long post that you wrote the other day and which I am trying to respond to. I guess I understand why you may have removed it, but I thank you for it and it was full of useful information that will no doubt help elucidate the coming debates as the Trump NARA-lago situation develops. I also read the Daily Beast article which summarizes same.

All I can do is point you to the de-classified (by Chuck Grassley) State Department investigation > HERE

The conclusion is, essentially, that during her tenure as Secretary of State Hillary used a private email server that hosted classified documents. This is being posed as a parallel to the current situation, but they are different in a number of respects.

1) Hillary's server contained email conversations that were, in many cases, classified because of her position as Secretary. Others / staff, etc. introduced the classified materials... according to the IG, in the interest of "expediency." Error.
2) She wasn't "taking" classified documents. Doesn't mean it was a good idea to keep the server. She did hem and haw about providing access but eventually did comply after a couple months. Possible intent?
3) The issue was investigated "5 to 9 years" after each the individual breeches occurred and when she was out of office (though running for president). Urgency.

A note here: The FBI/IG determined that Hillary / her staff was careless. Were all the investigations and the Comey drop political, given the timing? Yes! Did we have a right to know that she / her staff had been careless with classified documents years prior in order to weigh them in the balance as we voted. Yes! did it piss many (including me) at the time? Yes! But it's done - she lost - and here we are.

Regarding the current situation:

1) Trump is no longer President. He no longer has security clearance. Error.
2) Trump absconded with a wealth of material that was classified at the highest level. He apparently refused all courteous / legal efforts to reclaim it and he / his lawyers lied about having documents after giving some back. Intent.
3) He was storing them carelessly in a place (his home) routinely visited by people who might have malign interest in their contents. Urgency.

To conclude: Trump / his staff has been careless. Might the timing of the raid be political! Of course. Does that mean it was not justified or necessary? No.

So I understand why it pisses people off, but I for one am glad it is getting addressed and I think y'all will be too, if you are honest.

My hunch is that if it weren't to Trump's political advantage that we do, we wouldn't know about it. He initiated the leaks 100%. Not sure who is leaking now, but Trump is fighting in the forum he handles best - the press - and that is by his choice. Further, my guess is that he is feeling stuck between fighting in the press and any political advantage he thinks it affords him vs. going quietly. He is probably forcing the DOJ to act more vigorously than they wanted (as he has all along, apparently, in this matter). Recall - none of us knew there was even a grand jury empaneled in this matter and Garland was drawing flak from the left for not doing anything at all.

So ... how about let's see what happens?! I think that the resolution of all this could be more similar to the Clinton resolution than the actual circumstances seem to be.
Cheers
n-m
 
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You’re warming up to him aren’t you? Be honest.

Don’t give up on Joe yet. He’s the comeback kid!!
Honestly, there is a direct relationship between how many people's lives he affects vs. how tolerable he is as a persona / figure of history.

What's so strange about it this is - if Trump had just let us strike him down at the ballot box (which it's time we all admit here was legitimate), he would have become more powerful than he or we could ever have imagined.

The hint of nostalgia there is intentional: Trump could have at any point have leaned into the nostalgia/nostalgic charm that brought him to fame and thus to power in the first place.
 
Okay, I can't find the rather long post that you wrote the other day and which I am trying to respond to. I guess I understand why you may have removed it, but I thank you for it and it was full of useful information that will no doubt help elucidate the coming debates as the Trump NARA-lago situation develops. I also read the Daily Beast article which summarizes same.

All I can do is point you to the de-classified (by Chuck Grassley) State Department investigation > HERE

The conclusion is, essentially, that during her tenure as Secretary of State Hillary used a private email server that hosted classified documents. This is being posed as a parallel to the current situation, but they are different in a number of respects.

1) Hillary's server contained email conversations that were, in many cases, classified because of her position as Secretary. Others / staff, etc. introduced the classified materials... according to the IG, in the interest of "expediency." Error.
2) She wasn't "taking" classified documents. Doesn't mean it was a good idea to keep the server. She did hem and haw about providing access but eventually did comply after a couple months. Possible intent?
3) The issue was investigated "5 to 9 years" after each the individual breeches occurred and when she was out of office (though running for president). Urgency.

A note here: The FBI/IG determined that Hillary / her staff was careless. Were all the investigations and the Comey drop political, given the timing? Yes! Did we have a right to know that she / her staff had been careless with classified documents years prior in order to weigh them in the balance as we voted. Yes! did it piss many (including me) at the time? Yes! But it's done - she lost - and here we are.

Regarding the current situation:

1) Trump is no longer President. He no longer has security clearance. Error.
2) Trump absconded with a wealth of material that was classified at the highest level. He apparently refused all courteous / legal efforts to reclaim it and he / his lawyers lied about having documents after giving some back. Intent.
3) He was storing them carelessly in a place (his home) routinely visited by people who might have malign interest in their contents. Urgency.

To conclude: Trump / his staff has been careless. Might the timing of the raid be political! Of course. Does that mean it was not justified or necessary? No.

So I understand why it pisses people off, but I for one am glad it is getting addressed and I think y'all will be too, if you are honest.

My hunch is that if it weren't to Trump's political advantage that we do, we wouldn't know about it. He initiated the leaks 100%. Not sure who is leaking now, but Trump is fighting in the forum he handles best - the press - and that is by his choice. Further, my guess is that he is feeling stuck between fighting in the press and any political advantage he thinks it affords him vs. going quietly. He is probably forcing the DOJ to act more vigorously than they wanted (as he has all along, apparently, in this matter). Recall - none of us knew there was even a grand jury empaneled in this matter and Garland was drawing flak from the left for not doing anything at all.

So ... how about let's see what happens?! I think that the resolution of all this could be more similar to the Clinton resolution than the actual circumstances seem to be.
Cheers
n-m

I deleted my previous post because examples of how it could be done are irrelevant and the post was too long.

1. It's important to note that it's the unclassified summary you cited and it did not contradict anything I wrote above.

And in fact this:

Instances of classified information being deliberately transmitted via unclassified email were the rare exception and resulted in adjudicated security violations.

...confirms it, "rare" or not.

2. Your "documents" vs "email discussion" is a distinction without a difference in dealing with classified info. Furthermore, the "information" in the quote above can refer to both, either way.

3. I stand by my explanation of the effort it takes to move the info at level of classification that some of that info was at. It doesn't casually come up in a email conversation & anybody with that level of clearance should recognize it immediately.

4. I have only commented on/explained what I felt had been missed in the Clinton server discussion & have deliberately not compared it to Trump I any way. So, I'm not sure if you meant to include me in the "y'all" above, or not.
 
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very long column, but McCarthy is gold standard on the conservative law scale so worth a read.

By ANDREW C. MCCARTHY
August 24, 2022 3:59 PM
It turns out the former president tried to block FBI access to retained classified documents, but Biden intervened.
In my columns Monday and Tuesday, I stressed that President Trump could talk himself into being charged by the Justice Department by making public claims that prove to be untrue. This is especially so if what proves to be untrue are claims depicting Trump as fully cooperative and transparent, in contrast to the Justice Department, which is portrayed as the corrupt cat’s-paw of the Biden White House.
I should have added that the former president could find himself in even hotter water if, as is often the case, his more exuberant allies try to substantiate his combative story lines, without much thought about whether they are well thought through and, well, you know . . . true.
The Presidential Records Act (PRA), about which we’ve heard so much in recent weeks, allows former presidents to designate liaisons to have access to their records, which are maintained by the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA). One of Trump’s liaisons is John Solomon, the longtime journalist and editor of Just the News.
On Monday night, Solomon broke a story about a May 10, 2022, lettersent by the acting archivist, Debra Steidel Wall, to attorney Evan Corcoran, who had recently joined Trump’s legal team (he was also representing Trump confidant Steve Bannon, who was later convicted on criminal-contempt charges). Corcoran had taken the lead in the former president’s dispute with NARA over presidential records retained at Mar-a-Lago in apparent violation of the PRA. The dispute was poised to explode into a criminal investigation, mainly because some of the documents were highly classified.
Solomon obviously published details about the archivist’s letter because it puts the lie to the Biden White House’s implausible claim that the incumbent president has had no involvement in the Justice Department’s investigation of his predecessor, which resulted in the August 8 Mar-a-Lago search. This will prove embarrassing for Biden, but only because it is a foolish lie. As I’ve noted, given that national-security concerns about classified intelligence were a prime mover here, and that the search of a former president’s home by the FBI was historically unprecedented, there would have been something profoundly wrong if the incumbent president was not involved. Moreover, as we shall see, Biden’s involvement was statutorily required under the circumstances.
Clearly, the purport of Solomon’s news report was to bolster the Trump narrative that Biden is using the Justice Department as a political weapon in hopes of eliminating Trump as his potential 2024 opponent. Okay . . . but the problem is that Archivist Wall’s letter shreds Trump’s claim — most recently proclaimed in a lawsuit filed with great fanfare on Monday morning — that he has been completely cooperative and transparent in dealing with the FBI and the Justice Department, and therefore that the forcible search of his Florida estate was an unnecessary, inexplicable abuse of power.
The letter, to the contrary, details Trump’s stubborn determination to block the FBI from examining boxes of records containing documents marked as highly classified, which Trump had grudgingly returned to NARA in January 2022. Further, Trump triggered Biden’s necessary involvement (under the PRA) by dubiously invoking executive privilege. That is, Trump’s self-absorbed priority was to frustrate the FBI’s examination, rather than to support the government’s patent need to assess the possible damage caused by his mishandling of top-secret intelligence.
According to Wall’s letter, “throughout 2021,” NARA was involved in “communications” with Trump’s representatives because it was obvious that presidential records, which should have been inventoried and stored in the National Archives, were being retained in Mar-a-Lago. This dialogue eventually resulted, in January 2022, in the transfer of 15 boxes of Trump records to NARA.
Upon inspection, Wall recounted, “NARA identified items marked as classified national security information, up to the level of Top Secret and including Sensitive Compartmented Information and Special Access Program materials.” This is the nation’s most tightly guarded classified intelligence. The letter elaborates that the 15 boxes contained “over 100 documents with classification markings, comprising over 700 pages.”
This is an extraordinarily serious breach. In 2016, I addressed the analogous scenario of Hillary Clinton’s recklessness with top-secret intelligence (citing Edward Lucas’s enlightening book, The Snowden Operation: Inside the West’s Greatest Intelligence Disaster):
Take just a single document that contains a defense secret, or conveys the method or source by which secrets are acquired. If the agency discovers the document has been lost, or comes to “believe an unauthorised person has had access to it, assumptions must be of worst-case scenarios.” What could a hostile government or terror network do with that information? Will they kill an intelligence agent who has been outed? What about operatives the agent has been running — who must then be pulled out to avoid arrest, or worse? Even if our spies are safe, their operation must be considered blown, along with arrangements on which the operation relied — cooperating businesses, bank accounts, safe houses, drop boxes, etc.
As the archivist explained, quoting a letter the Justice Department sent to Corcoran in late April, when there is a possible security breach implicating highly classified information, the issue is not merely that this information becomes the grist for a criminal investigation. “The Executive Branch must also conduct an assessment of the potential damage resulting from the apparent manner in which these materials were stored and transported and take any necessary remedial steps.” For that reason, once NARA referred the matter to the Justice Department upon discovering highly classified information in the 15 boxes, the Justice Department wanted the FBI to have “immediate access to these materials so as to facilitate the necessary assessments.”
“Immediate,” it seems, is in the eye of the beholder. The Washington Post, to which Democratic administrations and Justice Departments customarily leak like a sieve, says the FBI spent February and March “interview[ing] several Archives officials about the returned classified documents and their interactions with Trump’s team.” I must say, I’ve never seen a crisis mode in which what sounds like two days’ work is squeezed into two months.
In any event, the bureau was finally prepared to review the boxes in April — some three months after the boxes were delivered to NARA. Consequently, by the terms of the PRA, Biden had to get involved.
Access to records generated in a previous presidency is generally restricted. Among the few exceptions, however, is that the incumbent president may obtain access if the records are “needed for the conduct of current business of the incumbent President’s office.” The Justice Department thus asked President Biden “to request that NARA provide the FBI with access to the boxes at issue so that the FBI and others in the Intelligence Community could examine them.” On April 11, Biden complied with this request, with the White House Counsel’s Office formally asking NARA to give the FBI access.
Under the PRA, such a request requires that the former president whose records are at issue be notified and given the opportunity to object. Ergo, on April 12, NARA wrote to Trump’s representatives, informing the former president that, “in light of the urgency of this request,” NARA planned to provide access to the FBI the following week. A lawyer for Trump requested an extension of this deadline, which the Biden White House Counsel’s Office accommodated, so that NARA moved the production date to April 29.
Yet, on April 29, Trump’s counsel sought a further delay in disclosure to the FBI (apparently repeating this request on May 1). The Trump camp’s April 29 request was a classic exercise in brinksmanship. The former president waited until the deadline day and then asked for apparently unspecified additional time. The idea was that Trump lawyers would first be permitted to review the 15 boxes, and would then consult with Trump “so that he may personally make any decision to assert a claim of constitutionally based privilege.” Hedging their bets, Trump’s counsel added that, in the event NARA declined to grant further time for this review, the archivist should deem the former president to have made “a protective assertion of executive privilege.”
Trump’s attempt to assert privilege, yet again, necessitated Biden’s involvement in the controversy. Under the PRA (the specific provision is section 2208(c) of Title 44, U.S. Code), if a prior president lodges a claim of constitutionally based privilege against disclosure of presidential records, the archivist must “consult with the incumbent President . . . to determine whether the incumbent President will uphold the claim asserted by the former President.”
Naturally, Biden realizes that Trump will portray any appearance of Biden’s involvement in a criminal investigation of Trump — even if it is required by law — as a sinister politicization of the Justice Department to help the incumbent president sideline his once and likely future Republican opponent. Thus, as Trump dragged his feet, trying to delay the FBI’s examination of the records by failing to articulate a concrete privilege claim, Biden schemed to thwart him by countermanding the vague privilege invocation — just as Biden had previously done, with the approval of the courts, in connection with the House January 6 committee’s probe. But this time, Biden is pretending to have had nothing to do with this countermand — i.e., to have delegated to other officials a decision about executive privilege that, constitutionally and statutorily, only Biden had the authority to make.
As Wall puts it, Biden deferred to her judgment, which she proceeded to exercise with the Biden Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) whispering in her ear. According to the archivist, OLC
advised me that there is no precedent for an assertion of executive privilege by a former President against an incumbent President to prevent the latter from obtaining from NARA Presidential records belonging to the Federal Government where “such records contain information that is needed for the conduct of current business of the incumbent President’s office and is not otherwise available.” [Citation omitted and emphasis in original.]
The bent of Solomon’s reporting about Wall’s letter highlighted Biden’s involvement in the investigation and his machinations to feign noninvolvement. These, however, are the story’s least significant threads. On Trump’s cost/benefit ledger, moreover, drawing attention to Wall’s letter is a loser, bigly.
There should not be any dispute that if highly classified documents had been retained at Mar-a-Lago, and had been accessible to people who did not have the top security clearances necessary to view them, then it was urgent for the FBI and other intelligence officials to examine the documents and assess the damage — to determine if informants were compromised and potentially in danger; if intelligence methods had been exposed, leaving the government vulnerable to disinformation; if sensitive intelligence operations had to be aborted; and so on. Representative Chris Stewart, a Utah Republican member of the House Intelligence Committee who is no never-Trumper, told Politico, “I mean, if he had actual Special Access Programs — do you know how extraordinarily sensitive that is? That’s very, very sensitive. If that were actually at his residence, that would be a problem.”
If, as appears to be the case, it was appropriate for the FBI to conduct this review of Trump records, then the PRA mandated Biden’s approval and his review of any Trump privilege claims. As a result, there is very little upside for Trump in emphasizing Biden’s collaboration with the Justice Department.
By contrast, the downside for Trump is immense. Wall’s letter not only lays out the scope of Trump’s recklessness to the extent it was known by May 10. It further invites consideration of the events that followed: Trump’s blocking the FBI’s access to the records that had been returned to the archives; the June 3 representation by Trump’s lawyers — in writing, in the context of responding to a May 11 grand-jury subpoena, and after representing that they had thoroughly searched records retained at Mar-a-Lago — that there were no more documents marked as classified on the premises; the subsequent surrender, also by Trump’s lawyers, of Mar-a-Lago surveillance-camera video that reportedly showed people breezing in and out of areas where Trump was storing his presidential records, apparently moving boxes around; and, finally, the seizure during the August 8 search of a significant amount of additional, highly classified information.
These revelations are condemnable. They provide a solid basis for Trump detractors to argue that the Mar-a-Lago search, though stunning and unprecedented, was justified — or at least not unreasonable.
For those of us who remain skeptical about whether the drastic measure of a search warrant was really necessary (especially given the FBI and DOJ’s evident lack of urgency in the months after Trump’s surrender of the 15 boxes in January 2022), these revelations require grappling with a hard question: Given that the former president was not responsibly securing the government’s most closely held intelligence, that he was trying to prevent the FBI from examining what he’d returned, that his lawyers were either misinformed about or lying about the classified information still retained at Mar-a-Lago, and that even the issuance of a grand-jury subpoena (with potential criminal penalties for noncompliance) had not succeeded in getting Trump to hand over the remaining classified information, what option short of a search warrant would have sufficed?
Meantime, some unsolicited advice to the former president and his apologists: If you are trying not to get indicted, the best defense is usually not a good offense. And it is never an offense that backfires.
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Andrew C. McCarthy
 
Trump’s big filing last night in the case is being universally panned as one of the most legally incompetent documents many people have ever seen. It even seems that Trump may have written some of the filing himself.

He has been unable to find a serious attorney to represent him on this matter, which doesn’t seem good given the seriousness of the charges involved.

and some random guys tweet is something to trust. And you just repeat it, jumping right in. HAIL Twitter! :cool:
 
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