C'mon Defend Socialism!

[willdup]

Is Norway's business controlled primarily by the private sector and private property?
5.3 - 5.4 million people in Norway also.

Not a direct analog, I agree.

I stand behind my characterization that stating Venezuela is a failed state "because socialism" is overly simplistic for the reasons I outlined above.

The US has a very, very far way to go to get to anything resembling venezuela-style socialism and to believe electing Joe Biden of all people is going to get us there is, in my view, an unrealistic view of both the US and Joe Biden. He would be a center-right candidate in most western european countries. That doesn't make him a good or bad choice, but it does suggest the belief that Biden will soon have us in bread lines is a bit absurd.

 

[not so good]

Amen brother all they can do is hate on Trump because there is nothing good or American about that crowd

There is a lot to hate on him about. Your not the one to decide if there is nothing good or American. U just a washdog. I wonder how rump will look in an orange jumpsuit?

 

[willdup]

How many different cultures in Norway hell how many people have 10 babies by 4 different women in Norway

Wow, there is so much to unpack in this one sentence I can't imagine responding without upsetting a lot of people. Suffice to say I acknowledge there is much about Norwegian "culture" that appeals to some on here.

Regarding your post about those who oppose Trump not being good americans, suggesting anyone who disagrees with you, much less someone as flawed as DJT, is unamerican is about the most unamerican position a person could possibly take.

Part of the magic of our Constitution is that a number of people with widely divergent viewpoints came together to create a form of government that could structurally accommodate and account for different views regarding politics and policy. Adams and Jefferson abhorred each others politics, yet they shared a reverence for the form of government they created together. It would be good if we could find a way to get back to that.

 

[GADAWGinIraq]

Not a direct analog, I agree.

I stand behind my characterization that stating Venezuela is a failed state "because socialism" is overly simplistic for the reasons I outlined above.

The US has a very, very far way to go to get to anything resembling venezuela-style socialism and to believe electing Joe Biden of all people is going to get us there is, in my view, an unrealistic view of both the US and Joe Biden. He would be a center-right candidate in most western european countries. That doesn't make him a good or bad choice, but it does suggest the belief that Biden will soon have us in bread lines is a bit absurd.

It's not Biden per se, it's AOC and company as the puppet masters. The only threat to America that is bigger than China is the socialist movement that is already here.

 

[VinylDawg]

It's not Biden per se, it's AOC and company as the puppet masters. The only threat to America that is bigger than China is the socialist movement that is already here.

Turn off your FOX NEWS dude...

 

[GADAWGinIraq]

Wow, there is so much to unpack in this one sentence I can't imagine responding without upsetting a lot of people. Suffice to say I acknowledge there is much about Norwegian "culture" that appeals to some on here.

Regarding your post about those who oppose Trump not being good americans, suggesting anyone who disagrees with you, much less someone as flawed as DJT, is unamerican is about the most unamerican position a person could possibly take.

Part of the magic of our Constitution is that a number of people with widely divergent viewpoints came together to create a form of government that could structurally accommodate and account for different views regarding politics and policy. Adams and Jefferson abhorred each others politics, yet they shared a reverence for the form of government they created together. It would be good if we could find a way to get back to that.

Yes, our Constitution is amazing. Too bad Omar and company want to destroy it.

 

[GADAWGinIraq]

Turn off your FOX NEWS dude...

What position is AOC going to have with Biden?
Edit: literal position in a Biden admin

 

[VinylDawg]

What position is AOC going to have with Biden?

She'll have the correct one...the same progressive platform she's always held. Biden sucks...he's a neoliberal jack ass that has made awful policy choices his entire political career. What he isn't... is a Neo-Fascist imbecile that we now have...so AGAIN, America will need to elect the lesser of two evils because our antiquated two party system fails. If you think AOC is the biggest threat to our democracy - then man, you're not paying attention.

 

[Zonadog]

View embedded media

I like the post, good message and speaking from experience, but I have to take off a few tenths for posting it on a Chinese data collection site.

 

[willdup]

Yes, our Constitution is amazing. Too bad Omar and company want to destroy it.

I am not trying to be a jackass, but can you tell me more about how the Squad wants to destroy the Constitution? I disagree with many of their policy ideas but I don't necessarily see a path to the destruction of our governmental structure.

 

[GADAWGinIraq]

She'll have the correct one...the same progressive platform she's always held. Biden sucks...he's a neoliberal jack ass that has made awful policy choices his entire political career. What he isn't... is a Neo-Fascist imbecile that we now have...so AGAIN, America will need to elect the lesser of two evils because our antiquated two party system fails. If you think AOC is the biggest threat to our democracy - then man, you're not paying attention.

Who's behind AOC? I actually meant which position for the Biden administration should it happen fwiw. (maybe poorly worded on my part)

 

[Whosyodawgy]

I mean - this is so obvious that if you need to hear it again, you're just looking for a fight. Corporate subsidies and tax breaks are class A socialism, but there is a limited benefit there I think we can agree. Indeed, corporate socialism doesn't trickle down, as we now know from decades of hoping it would. There are plenty of other examples of course. Roads. Airports. The social security and/or unemployment that most on this board seem to live on. Medicaid and Medicare are definite and unquestionably useful both in reducing the overall cost of healthcare and as a basic underpinning of a civil society. Etc.

Did you have a point? Please be specific about what you are saying.
Medicare and SSA are programs that actual WORKING Americans pay into all their life. It is not "free" for them. Now, bums who just game the system is a different story. There are millions of them, ALL voting 'rat so they can keep on scamming. Those two programs would be working more like they were intended if not for the 'rats. So from the perspective of how they are implemented now as opposed to what they were supposed to be, it is clear that "socialism" has been the major problem for them. Take out the bums who cheat and let's talk about it./

 

[Whosyodawgy]

That is a tremendously simplistic description of Venezuela's problems. The primary problem they have is political corruption and incompetence in conjunction with failing oil prices and reduced oil production due to lack of investment. None of those issue are in any way unique to a socialist state.

My counterpoint is Norway. They also have a form a socialist government that is backstopped by a massive sovereign wealth fund created from north sea oil reserves. They have generally been well run and with eye toward medium to long term planning.

However, neither of those examples are particularly relevant to a discussion of US economic policy.

Both your first two paragraphs are lies and if you don't know it, I would be very surprised ... which makes me wonder what your agenda really is ... comrade.

 

[GADAWGinIraq]

I am not trying to be a jackass, but can you tell me more about how the Squad wants to destroy the Constitution? I disagree with many of their policy ideas but I don't necessarily see a path to the destruction of our governmental structure.

How can one fundamentally change America without destroying our Constitution? Omar directly threatened our economic and political systems.

 

[willdup]

Both your first two paragraphs are lies and if you don't know it, I would be very surprised ... which makes me wonder what your agenda really is ... comrade.

You are welcome to correct me on the specific lies if you are so inclined. I don't have all the answers and am always looking to refine my views. But if all you have is a general accusation of lies and calling me comrade then there isn't much to work with, is there?

 

[willdup]

How can one fundamentally change America without destroying our Constitution? Omar directly threatened our economic and political systems.

Here is her actual quote:

"As long as our economy and political systems prioritize profit without considering who is profiting, who is being shut out, we will perpetuate this inequality. So we cannot stop at criminal justice system. We must begin the work of dismantling the whole system of oppression, wherever we find it."

I'm not seeing the destruction of our Constitution in that but I guess it could be considered an ideological rorschach test.

 

[Zonadog]

To be clear - I brought up only the socialist tendencies that undergird drive our own government's fiscal choices. Certainly there we can point to plenty of national successes in Europe if you really want to, but none are really as large or diverse as America is demographically. The point here is that there is a vast middle ground between socialism and not believing in government at all. Trump and his adherents are way over the line on the latter, which is why we are in the state that we are. People hate him for other reasons, I assure you, and your fear of socialism is fine and understandable, but we aren't going to become Sweden, or even Belgium, not in my lifetime. Let's balance effective government with good citizen corporatism and we'll all have a better 21st century.

Sweden isn't socialist. They tried it, hated it, and moved away from it. Although some of the trappings remain, like exorbitant tax rates, they are not socialist.

 

[Spe77]

Here is her actual quote:

"As long as our economy and political systems prioritize profit without considering who is profiting, who is being shut out, we will perpetuate this inequality. So we cannot stop at criminal justice system. We must begin the work of dismantling the whole system of oppression, wherever we find it."

I'm not seeing the destruction of our Constitution in that but I guess it could be considered an ideological rorschach test.

What system do you think she’s talking about dismantling? How do you think she plans to address what she determines is economic inequality? Does she plan to do it by asking nicely or through the force of government? Who is she to decide if those engaged in our economy are allowed to prioritize profits?

 

[Zonadog]

Here is her actual quote:

"As long as our economy and political systems prioritize profit without considering who is profiting, who is being shut out, we will perpetuate this inequality. So we cannot stop at criminal justice system. We must begin the work of dismantling the whole system of oppression, wherever we find it."

I'm not seeing the destruction of our Constitution in that but I guess it could be considered an ideological rorschach test.

How has dismantling the criminal justice system worked out so far?

 

[Whosyodawgy]

Here is her actual quote:

"As long as our economy and political systems prioritize profit without considering who is profiting, who is being shut out, we will perpetuate this inequality. So we cannot stop at criminal justice system. We must begin the work of dismantling the whole system of oppression, wherever we find it."

I'm not seeing the destruction of our Constitution in that but I guess it could be considered an ideological rorschach test.

Let's go over it one sentence at a time.

"As long as our economy and political system prioritize profit without considering who is profiting, who is being shut out, we will perpetuate this inequality".

I'd really appreciate your telling me WTF you think that means. Because, it sounds like the babblings of a fool to me. She didn't say a damn thing that even makes sense. It is barely even coherent.
You could start by telling me how a political system (constitutional democratic republic) prioritizes profit.

 

[GADAWGinIraq]

Here is her actual quote:

"As long as our economy and political systems prioritize profit without considering who is profiting, who is being shut out, we will perpetuate this inequality. So we cannot stop at criminal justice system. We must begin the work of dismantling the whole system of oppression, wherever we find it."

I'm not seeing the destruction of our Constitution in that but I guess it could be considered an ideological rorschach test.

So she, or the government, or whomever, gets to decide who is profiting?
Next it will be from each according to his ability to each according to his need.
Also, I'm sure her 2A views align with our Constitution.
Who backs AOC?

 

[Whosyodawgy]

You are welcome to correct me on the specific lies if you are so inclined. I don't have all the answers and am always looking to refine my views. But if all you have is a general accusation of lies and calling me comrade then there isn't much to work with, is there?

That's correct. I should not have said it that way.
Here is your first statement:
"That is a tremendously simplistic description of Venezuela's problems. The primary problem they have is political corruption and incompetence in conjunction with failing oil prices and reduced oil production due to lack of investment. None of those issue are in any way unique to a socialist state."[/QUOTE]
What you have wrong here is that whereas political corruption is present under any form of government, it is far more prevalent under socialism because the one group which can right the ship when corruption gets out of hand is no longer large enough to determine the outcome of national elections. That group is the prosperous middle class, which today only exists as a dominant political force in the United States. That is what socialists and other enemies of our country aim to destroy. Once that is done, there is no check on the level of corruption possible. The prime example of that class moving en masse in modern US history is the election of Donald Trump after the lawless administration of Obama.
Secondly, lack of investment is a hallmark of socialism. Too few people have resources within the country because the middle class is no longer the engine.

We can move on to your second statement after your reply.

 

[willdup]

willdup said:

↑



You are welcome to correct me on the specific lies if you are so inclined. I don't have all the answers and am always looking to refine my views. But if all you have is a general accusation of lies and calling me comrade then there isn't much to work with, is there?

That's correct. I should not have said it that way.
Here is your first statement:
"That is a tremendously simplistic description of Venezuela's problems. The primary problem they have is political corruption and incompetence in conjunction with failing oil prices and reduced oil production due to lack of investment. None of those issue are in any way unique to a socialist state."[/QUOTE]
What you have wrong here is that whereas political corruption is present under any form of government, it is far more prevalent under socialism because the one group which can right the ship when corruption gets out of hand is no longer large enough to determine the outcome of national elections. That group is the prosperous middle class, which today only exists as a dominant political force in the United States. That is what socialists and other enemies of our country aim to destroy. Once that is done, there is no check on the level of corruption possible. The prime example of that class moving en masse in modern US history is the election of Donald Trump after the lawless administration of Obama.
Secondly, lack of investment is a hallmark of socialism. Too few people have resources within the country because the middle class is no longer the engine.

We can move on to your second statement after your reply.
[/quote]
How is the corruption of government that you describe fundimentally better facilitated by socialism or a left-wing orientation than the corruption of government by a right-wing orientation? I assume you aren’t going to suggest that there aren’t many examples of what you described being executed by autocratic right-leaning despots.

 

[Whosyodawgy]

[/QUOTE] How is the corruption of government that you describe fundamentally better facilitated by socialism .... [?QUOTE]
I just told you the answer. It is because there is no longer a dominant middle class to cause trouble for the "elite" class.
For instance:
Putin does not really run Russia. The oligarch class within Russia ("elite") are his masters. They have no significant numbers of middle class and have further done away with actual elections. This elimination of actual elections takes place once the socialist system gets control. It provides an endless supply of low paid workers
Likewise, the ChiCom party in China answers to the Chinese oligarchs, many of whom sit on the "Commitee" (which you sometimes heart about but are never named).
These "oligarchs" along with their western counterparts (a few of which are such people as the Rothschilds who control the Bank of England and hold the IRS money, Soros, Gates etc.) are the core of the globalist class.
These people have allegiance to no government. They use governments as tools to control the masses.
Since they do control the governments, and everywhere but in the US, they cannot be voted out, corruption is on a scale far worse than in this country.
If Trump loses, the same thing will happen here. They will immediately move to both flood the country with low paid unskilled migrants and then move on to corrupting federal elections.

 

[nice marmot]

Sweden isn't socialist. They tried it, hated it, and moved away from it. Although some of the trappings remain, like exorbitant tax rates, they are not socialist.

None of the European countries are strictly socialist no. Venezuela is the closest to doctrinaire (unless we wanna skew communist).

 

[Reddawg4429]

To be clear - I brought up only the socialist tendencies that undergird drive our own government's fiscal choices. Certainly there we can point to plenty of national successes in Europe if you really want to, but none are really as large or diverse as America is demographically. The point here is that there is a vast middle ground between socialism and not believing in government at all. Trump and his adherents are way over the line on the latter, which is why we are in the state that we are. People hate him for other reasons, I assure you, and your fear of socialism is fine and understandable, but we aren't going to become Sweden, or even Belgium, not in my lifetime. Let's balance effective government with good citizen corporatism and we'll all have a better 21st century.

Are you familiar with the terms of the green new deal and if so, how is that not Socialism? You must see a significant lean to the left from Democrats just as you have claimed the opposite of Republicans, no?

 

[nice marmot]

Are you familiar with the terms of the green new deal and if so, how is that not Socialism? You must see a significant lean to the left from Democrats just as you have claimed the opposite of Republicans, no?

I will take this on tomorrow. Bookmarked.

 

[nice marmot]

What do you mean they can’t negotiate. They establish the floor

They can’t and they don’t. I don’t blame you for not understanding the pharmaceutical market tho as it is complicated.

 

[JohnnyBeeDawg]

Turn off your FOX NEWS dude...

sleep well

 

[phoenixdawg]

They can’t and they don’t. I don’t blame you for not understanding the pharmaceutical market tho as it is complicated.

Please don’t under estimate my knowledge of reimbursement for medical procedures, smug much?

 

[nice marmot]

Please don’t under estimate my knowledge of reimbursement for medical procedures, smug much?

that is not pharm. seems we are hung up on that distinction. My bad for not being more specific

 

[zingerdawg]

So she, or the government, or whomever, gets to decide who is profiting?
Next it will be from each according to his ability to each according to his need.
Also, I'm sure her 2A views align with our Constitution.
Who backs AOC?

It really begs the question who voted for this woman. We have people posting quotes without know how damaging her first two sentences could be to this country. When you decide who is wealthy not based on merit, it is directly against the constitution. Period. End of discussion. Not to mention the government will not stop at just controlling who is wealthy.

 

[dogstud]

It really begs the question who voted for this woman. We have people posting quotes without know how damaging her first two sentences could be to this country. When you decide who is wealthy not based on merit, it is directly against the constitution. Period. End of discussion. Not to mention the government will not stop at just controlling who is wealthy.

Exactly it is a mentality more than a flawed style. She and her band of fuglies will completely alter everything we love and hold dear.

 

[Warner Vegas]

I’m a Trump supporter...a two-income family...pay all my taxes...I’m doing just fine...but without Medicaid for my 10 year-old son with Cerebral Palsy and a few other things...not sure where we’d be and he damn sure wouldn’t be doing as well as he is. I couldn’t afford all his therapies...his seizure meds...when it comes time to get him a new walker or wheelchair because he’s outgrown his previous. Medicaid has been a blessing for my son and our family. Nothing like that is without warts...and I can easily see the system around it has its issues...but I’m so grateful and appreciative of the help and what it does for my boy.

 

[dogstud]

It would work in a country, like Germany, where the people are all similar and can come together to work hard. Our country isn't like that, too many people with their hand out. People like me have to work extra hard to take care of the lazies. It would capitulate here in a nanosecond with all the lazies we have here, let's be real. It will all work itself out in the long run.

 

[Zonadog]

It would work in a country, like Germany, where the people are all similar and can come together to work hard. Our country isn't like that, too many people with their hand out. People like me have to work extra hard to take care of the lazies. It would capitulate here in a nanosecond with all the lazies we have here, let's be real. It will all work itself out in the long run.

Don't be so sure. Let's look at no-longer-socialist Sweden. One of the problems they found under socialism was the absurdity of a welfare state where it pays more to be sick. You have to follow the incentives to get to the real outcomes.

As well as statutory payments, most employees in Sweden received additional sickness benefit under company agreements and their collective agreements, which meant that those who took sick leave ended up with a larger paycheck than a healthy person who came to work every day. Unsurprisingly, Sweden held the OECD record for the highest rate of non-working adults in the labor force for several decades. Equally unsurprisingly, spikes in the rate of absence due to sickness frequently coincided with major sporting events. Even during the 2002 soccer World Cup—by which time reforms had already reversed the very worst excesses—the number of sick days increased by 41% among male workers. - Forbes

 

[willdup]

How is the corruption of government that you describe fundamentally better facilitated by socialism .... [?QUOTE]
I just told you the answer. It is because there is no longer a dominant middle class to cause trouble for the "elite" class.
For instance:
Putin does not really run Russia. The oligarch class within Russia ("elite") are his masters. They have no significant numbers of middle class and have further done away with actual elections. This elimination of actual elections takes place once the socialist system gets control. It provides an endless supply of low paid workers
Likewise, the ChiCom party in China answers to the Chinese oligarchs, many of whom sit on the "Commitee" (which you sometimes heart about but are never named).
These "oligarchs" along with their western counterparts (a few of which are such people as the Rothschilds who control the Bank of England and hold the IRS money, Soros, Gates etc.) are the core of the globalist class.
These people have allegiance to no government. They use governments as tools to control the masses.
Since they do control the governments, and everywhere but in the US, they cannot be voted out, corruption is on a scale far worse than in this country.
If Trump loses, the same thing will happen here. They will immediately move to both flood the country with low paid unskilled migrants and then move on to corrupting federal elections.[/QUOTE]


You use Putin and Russia as an example. You think Russia post-collapse of the USSR is a socialist country? It's not. It's a kleptocracy and is also unique in that the kleptocracy was created in a short period of time with the transfer of vast sums to state wealth to a very small number of individuals. I also disagree that Putin works for the oligarchs and I suspect Mikhail Khodorkovsky would agree with me. Some have suggested Putin is the wealthiest person on the planet and I agree that may be the case.

But again, using Russia as your example is disingenuous as their history and ours share almost no similarities. Were we to move significantly left from our current political orientation we would in all likelihood be much closer to the social democratic countries of western europe. Right now, those countries are doing a far better job of protecting their middle class than we are of protecting ours. Cost of medical care can be crippling for the middle class here. Higher education, which used to be the ticket to reaching the middle/upper classes, is brutally expensive in the US compared to western europe, where is is often inexpensive or free. Here, people often graduate with six figures of debt.

I think I will close out my response here. The rest of your post gets into a line of discussion of conspiracy theories that I won't engage in.

 

[willdup]

It really begs the question who voted for this woman. We have people posting quotes without know how damaging her first two sentences could be to this country. When you decide who is wealthy not based on merit, it is directly against the constitution. Period. End of discussion. Not to mention the government will not stop at just controlling who is wealthy.

She didn't say a single thing that any union organizer hasn't said a thousand times in this country. We have had unions, for better or worse, for a long time without destroying the Constitution or the fundamental structure of our government.

Look, I am not a supporter of Omar so don't ask me to defend all her desired policies. She represents the extreme left of our political spectrum and I am in independent centrist. But there are far greater threats to our country and our continued prosperity than one congresswoman from very liberal district in MN.

 

[DAWG1980]

Please, any of you left leaning guys that hate our President so much, show me a country that has benefited from a Socialist society. Please just one. The foundation that Biden and his team of anti American Socialists is a rotten one. None of you can get GITT and argue this and you know it.

How do you jump from left leaning to strict socialism ?

 

[Zonadog]

You use Putin and Russia as an example. You think Russia post-collapse of the USSR is a socialist country? It's not. It's a kleptocracy and is also unique in that the kleptocracy was created in a short period of time with the transfer of vast sums to state wealth to a very small number of individuals. I also disagree that Putin works for the oligarchs and I suspect Mikhail Khodorkovsky would agree with me. Some have suggested Putin is the wealthiest person on the planet and I agree that may be the case.

But again, using Russia as your example is disingenuous as their history and ours share almost no similarities. Were we to move significantly left from our current political orientation we would in all likelihood be much closer to the social democratic countries of western europe. Right now, those countries are doing a far better job of protecting their middle class than we are of protecting ours. Cost of medical care can be crippling for the middle class here. Higher education, which used to be the ticket to reaching the middle/upper classes, is brutally expensive in the US compared to western europe, where is is often inexpensive or free. Here, people often graduate with six figures of debt.

I think I will close out my response here. The rest of your post gets into a line of discussion of conspiracy theories that I won't engage in.

Are you familiar with the tax rates of those socialist democratic countries of western Europe? In the Scandinavian countries, the lower and middle class pull the greatest tax burden, including income taxes over 50% and sales taxes over 20%. Sweden has 30% federal tax, 30% local, and 24% sales tax. The upper class, who can use more tax avoidance strategies, can lower their tax burden dramatically.

Higher education is tuition free, but other costs, including all living costs, are not. Many students leave universities there with heavy debt.