C'mon Defend Socialism!
- Thread starter dogstud
- Start date
You have no grip on political theory. As to Kristallnacht, if Trump allowed a similar atrocity, you'd excuse it. You pretty much said so as much in your message.* I would say his approach to policing and governance is trending that way, so you may get your chance.
*Indeed, Trump’s encouragement/willingness to turn a blind eye to police violence and your own “should be shot” are similar to the conditions that allowed Kristallnacht. Sorry you are unable to see that. I sincerely am.
Last edited:
whatever dude. Notice no one is talking to you? Quote Forrest Gump to your simple heart’s delight, if you can’t usefully participate then stfu
Last edited:
I was not quoting from a movie, just an honest observation. No one is talking to me, you are correct because this is a board where communication is written not spoken.
I really do not care to correct you on such a small issue, just thought it was funny.
Have a great Sunday.
So you are attributing your ridiculous assertion that we have been sliding into a "fascist police state" to your superior grip on political theory. LOL
I am relieved to know that you are not basing it on reality because that would mean that you are completely delusional.
I asked you to go back and examine what happened under a fascist regime. But, of course, you will not do that. You simply claim that I would condone atrocity. You don't dare challenge your own imaginary higher moral ground. You're so comfortable there.
One question:
If rioters broke into your mom's house and tried to steal the meatloaf, would you shoot them?
I read this stuff, and recognizing that you are an intelligent person, it frightens me that you identify yourself as a centrist Democrat because you are probably correct. But that doesn’t make you close to a moderate, as many of the comments below make clear. And there is much truth to many of the comments, but they are so littered with hyperbole and one-sided animus that it’s clear you’re not going to do what actual moderates need to do, and that is police the extremes of their side.
There hasn’t been a GOP crusade against the VRA. It was a remarkable but flawed piece of legislation, and while it has accomplished much of the objectives it was designed to accomplish, it also created legal tension that courts have had almost no luck resolving. Courts mandated a fair amount of the creation of majority-minority districts so that persons of color could be represented in their legislature; that, in turn, led the ubiquitous Gerry-meandering (which ALL political parties have engaged in) to create bizarre, meandering legislative districts which in turn led to even more polarized districts (safe seats). But in terms of the data on the ground, minorities now vote in many jurisdictions in a percentage greater than the percentage of the population. Modern attempts to address the VRA won’t and haven’t had an impact on the key VRA objective of ensuring the right to vote. That’s a good thing.
I don’t care to defend Trump, but when I see someone say “peaceful protestors” it’s obvious you have no intention of holding anyone on the Left accountable in the same way you expect—rightly—people on the Right to hold Trump accountable. There is perhaps no worse example you could ever cite than Portland, where protests have been anything but peaceful. By what criteria do you make that observation? How many assaults, before the protest turns to something other than a non-peaceful one? Was it peaceful in New York when the police chief was assaulted?
None of that excuses Trump for disbanding protesters for a photo op, on that point we agree. But just as he should be held accountable, there have been numerous oversteps by protesters, and rather than holding them accountable, you falsely label them as a group “peaceful.“ Why? Because you associate them as anti-Trump. At some point, the claimed moderates on the Left have to start holding the extremists on their side, of which there are many, accountable. The fact that you won’t is why you have been tuned out.
it’s also a bit of weak sauce to characterize AOC‘s proposal as grand but short on details; there were plenty of details, and the fact that some of them were leaked caused a great deal of consternation. It’s clear you didn’t like the fact a vote was forced, but that’s almost complaining about transparency, and again, that brings me back to the original point, as moderates are not against transparency, they realize that that is what tends to reign in the extremes.
The GOP needs to reign in the populist, anti-data wing of its party, but the Left in turn needs to reign on the Maoist wing of its party, and that can’t happen unless folks like you start coming down on them and calling strikes against both teams.
Actually both
The election of DJT had very little to do with R v D. It was establishment/globalists v the common man
His re-election has even less to do with it.
It is now the last attempt to fend off communists within our own country ready to hand it over to the globalists. Sadly, one of the two major political parties has fully & openly embraced the communists.
Yes ... it is obvious the He was involved. I'm glad you agree.
Okay, I will answer:
3) The better analogy for our times right now would be if the cops broke into my mom's house and tried to steal the meatloaf.
2) I was reacting to this statement: "As for the rioters in Portland, they certainly should be shot down in the street" - perhaps I misunderstood your meaning or intent?
1) Finally, the more important point - you keep referring to Kristallnacht in earlier posts, which I will get to in due course. Firstly, however, also elsewhere, you note that there are no "no borders around [the word Socialist] to keep "communist" and "kleptocracy" and "dictatorship" out." I said something similar earlier on a thread that said "defend socialism," which seemed to engage political theory. I agree with you - there's not a checklist - you might, rather, have a preponderance of evidence that leans socialist. In our case we have elements of socialism which, as you say, certainly could trend toward Socialism if that is what we as a people wanted. I don't think it is, but we aren't going to excise those elements from our society entirely because theories of governance exist on a sort of spectrum, as you seem to know.
Fascism is exactly similar. Earlier, in the post that seemed to offend you, I didn't say Trump was a fascist. I said that "Trumpism is a fascist phenomenon and Trump himself is increasingly a fascist pretender." These are two different things. I will leave the former for later in the discussion if relevant. These sort of movements are common in our history and not in and of themselves all that concerning - but the latter - the latter is the concerning part. I and many others are reacting especially of late to the events at Lafayette Square and now this here in Portland, which the mayor and other Oregonians are decrying as Federal overreach carried out by generically uniformed cops that the mayor, governor, its senators, etc. did not request and do not want. The administration is saying it is going wide with the tactics, though what that may mean is anyone's guess.
This may alarm me more than it alarms you, because you seem to trust the President and his governing impulses. TBH, I am not totally clear on what is happening on Portland's streets, though I could phone a friend, but the point is that the mayor and governor and etc. do not want the Feds there and are suggesting that things were improving until the unknown Feds showed up and exacerbated the situation. I have to take them at their word, because it's not as if I am hearing from my Portland friends that the world has gone to shit or anything, and we both know that there's plenty of ground for the media to both sides an ongoing conflict.
And here we get to the meat of the matter. If we view fascism, like socialism, as a political theory that is "unbounded" - it's hard not to view the Federal intervention as a fascististic act / set of acts (to include Lafayette Square, which has the additional feature of being a publicity stunt), of an increasingly beset president with no impulse or ability to calm things down. I suggest, indeed, he wants to make things worse because he thinks it suits him, but we can disagree on that as well.
What there should be no disagreement on is that Kristallnacht was, in fact, a police action, a bunch of Nazi soldiers and sympathizers, rioting with the tacit approval of the reich. We seem to agree this is a bad thing, but what I can't figure out is if you are genuinely not seeing the parallel to the increasingly violent Federal response to protests, or worse, if you are somehow trying to align the protesters with the nazi rioters who murdered, maimed, and destroyed the lives of the jews in Germany. If you are, it doesn't work, but I don't think that you could be trying to make that parallel.
I agree broadly with most of what you say here and said something similar above. As to Portland, I just confessed that I don't myself know what is going on there and I shouldn't have said "peaceful" ...
Though reading more, they have been mostly peaceful on balance, despite some highly publicized events, including those in the Northeast Precinct and what appear to be anti-BLM actions in that area.
I was reacting to what I think is someone trying to draw an analogy between the protesters there and the nazi rioters of Kristallnacht, which is gross. The point on Oregon, however, is that the electeds in Oregon seem to want to handle it themselves. And more broadly, most of the protests were in fact peaceful until exacerbated by one outside force or another. There are plenty of good journalists who have done good work elucidating that.
Finally, in my view, the "center" has been drifting right for 40 years - I am far from alone on this point. The GND included a set of principles - broad sweeping statements that did included some socialist go tos. You say it's not a concerted effort of the GOP against the VRA, and, yes, much of it has been fought in the courts, but it would be hard to say there's not a GOP campaign against voting rights qua voting rights. So, again, good checking. A substantive debate could be had within just those points, but we are in a totally different world here.
Thank you for engaging.
Last edited:
The Portland protest has now been labeled a riot by local officials for about the 10th time. It is out of control.
Fine with me. Let them live in the ashes and garbage left over after this finally fizzles out. Has it not occurred to you that democrat city governments are profoundly stupid, incompetent, and incapable of effective governance? So, if they think they have it under control, so be it. I do not mind watching them destroy a once-nice city.
so - PPB officers must announce that a gathering is a riot before using tear gas on protester as I read on.
From Portland friend in response to: "How is Portland right now? As bad as all that?"
"Ha! No. Not a bit. Any violence that's happening is confined to about 3 square blocks downtown. And not that there aren't some bad apples (mostly white people) who are LARPing as Blolshevik revolutionaries, the vast majority of the violence is being started by the cops. I've been to maybe a dozen protests all over the city and they've been 100% peaceful."
LARP = Live Action Role Playing
Just one point of view. I asked him wtf happened in the Northeast Precinct.
"I had to look up what happened. Again, seems like LARPers. I don't condone it."
A group of moms who label themselves moms don’t necessarily represent everyone, and it’s not as simple as the police just “declaring a riot,“ there was predicate behavior that led to that; I’m sure Trump has only fanned the flames, as only he can, but Portland has a long and ignominious history in this area.
By the way, I thought we settled during the civil rights era the notion that locals can allow violent behavior they deem acceptable? I realize that you may feel the locals are more “in the right,“ but that’s not how a federal system functions. There are citizens in Portland, even if they aren’t
of the same political affiliation as the mayor, who may not want their businesses looted, and may not want to be subject to violent conduct. The majority of Portlanders can have their say, but not at the expense of the civil rights of the other citizens who live there.
https://www.indystar.com/story/news...lare-saturday-night-protests-riot/5467736002/
Sorry, but he’s not at every block, and that would be atypical given past events in Portland, and given what’s already happened there. I agree with his characterization of who is most at fault, but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s happening. And it’s not the first time, and the left needs to step up and own it, and make sure that it stops. Every time they rationalize it, minimize it, and try to sweep it under the rug and say it’s only a few bad apples, the message it sends to everyone else is clear: they don’t give a shit.
There's a lot of complexity going on w/r/t that. Steve Vladeck did a piece on the lawfare blog if you want to look it up regarding what the legal questions for the Feds might be. BUT, it was the PPD saying "no feds" while being accused of collaborating with them. In other words, it appears to be complicated on the ground, as my conversation with a friend there and subsequent reading suggest. However, it's pretty clear that the Feds have not been helpful toward a solution.
And by the way, I don’t expect the folks on the left to be able to stop every instance of misconduct in the same way that the police can’t possibly be expected to stop every instance of misconduct, but I would at least like the rhetoric to be there, so that these folks do not feel empowered. No one is asking for perfection, but you’re not going to make real progress until you acknowledge that there is a problem.
I have no doubt it’s complicated, because when the feds show up, the anarchists see another target, but doesn’t that scream that there’s a problem? If they think that there’s a group there that they hate, that it justifies engaging in violent behavior?
Again, you have a point here. The George Floyd protests / BLM extension of same have been complicated by a number of factors, I would say, but I don't disagree in principle that any Bolshevik LARPers ought to be held to account, same with property damagers and violent actors.
Please share what you are looking at. I am not questioning that you are seeing it, I would just like to see the same thing.
I see no point in rehashing most of your response simply because I don't believe it will result in anything positive.
So, I skipped down to what you refer to as the meat. For you to view the federal response to the rioters and destruction of working Americans' private property and their businesses and homes as in any way fascistic is an incredible and unrealistic stretch.
I am a Jew. My father was Jewish and my mother Scottish. I grew up learning both Judaism and the teachings of the great John Calvin, as my mother was Presbyterian. I have relatives who died in the camps at Dachau and Bergen. My cousin is a Presbyterian minister. My deceased brother was a rabbi.
The only reason I told you that is because my Jewish heritage makes me ever vigilant for any racist scourge or fascist appearance.
The reason I tried to get you to really look at the fascist atrocities of WWll is because your comparison between that and President Trump's "movement" are diametrically opposite.
The left is attempting to deny free speech on American campuses and elsewhere by force and intimidation. That is fascism.
The left is violently destroying the private property of American citizens. That is fascism.
The left is attempting to rewrite history. That is fascism.
The left is attacking religion. That is Marxism
The left is attacking the nuclear family tradition in this country. That is Marxism.
The left has undertaken a systematic campaign to warp education in America to suit their political goal. That is classic Marxism.
The left is attempting to overthrow our economic system and replace it with asset redistribution, oppressive taxation and government control of industry. That is Marxism.
I could go on but I am sure you get the idea.
No conservative advocates any of the evil I listed. But the left absolutely does.
How you fail to recognize the imminent danger from the unchecked rampage of the left is astounding.
For the President to allow it to continue would be negligence of his duty. I assure you he will not neglect his responsibility to the good working people of this nation.
If you are not one of them then I don't really care what you think. But if you are, you should realize that your best interest is always the primary concern of President Trump. He has proven it with his actions, not just his words.
Last edited:
One of the best and most concise post I have ever read on this board. Thank you for laying it out there for all to understand what we are facing in these times. God bless you and, God save the Republic!
I agree. It is a waste of time arguing when one party fails to recognize the imminent danger from ... a President who is both racist and increasingly lawless. I could just as easily point by point this and note that your argument here is all but absurd. But good luck to you. It seems you are pretty deeply in thrall to FOX or television news. That can’t be healthy and it does seem to have affected your vigilance. Enjoy.
You must be posting about Obama, because he was a racist SOB.
Last edited:
I would much enjoy a point by point response since you claim the ability to do so.
However, you know and I certainly know that you cannot do that.
Most of your points are either alarmist nonsense ir explicitly misinformed. Take this for instance:
“The left is attempting to rewrite history.”
Are you referring to the removal of statues? To the elucidation of the reasons they were erected and the scrutinization of what the men they celebrate actually did? Or are you just unhappy that we are looking at the history more closely and deciding that that is a “rewriting” you aren’t happy with?
It’s not clear. It’s late so I will snooze on that and look forward to some clarity from you.
Isn't it amazing that a POTUS that has cut 8 regs for every new 1, is a federalist, to my knowledge has not outright ignored court decisions that have gone against him, is only trying to enforce duly passed immigration law and overturn a completely illegal program enacted unilaterally by the former POTUS is a fascist. I'm beginning to think the marmot wears brown shirts.
I guess you have to see everything in a long list spelled out, because you must lack reasoning to understand current events. It is clear to see the dems role in destroying our capitalist system.
So this is your point by point response ... the one in which you can easily point by point the racism and lawlessness of President Trump while "noting" (which, BTW does imply writing) where my points are "all but absurd".
Instead you have slopped out a ladle of oozing disrespect, apparently hoping to successfully cover with arrogant disdain, that which you cannot cover in reasonable discourse.
Why am I not surprised?
It was late. Again - I don't see that history is being rewritten, and I look forward to your explanation of how that is happening. Take Stonewall Jackson for instance. I am a fan of military history and enjoy study of Stonewall's efforts at Fredricksburg / Chancellorsville in particular. Just a madman's errand ending in tragedy. Nothing that has happened has changed that history and, to be honest, the civil war is one of the most studied conflicts in all of history. So, you know, if they take down a statue, so what.
Let's take campus freedoms, as that's a good, complicated one. You claim that they are "attempting to deny free speech on American campuses and elsewhere by force and intimidation" Now, I don't doubt that on many campuses that conservatives self-censor. There are several good surveys that tell us this is so. Of course, minority and LGBT students have long self-censored and there are similar surveys to this, and no one ever cared for their benefit. But let's posit that there is a crisis of free-speech on campuses
- whoops sent too soon - will continue
The world of academia is constantly pushing their socialist mantra on students. You find examples daily of conservative students being treated unfairly as a result of their beliefs. As far as leftist groups self censoring, that is laughable, they never think they have gone far enough to force their views upon others.
Your theory has more holes than the Russia collusion story.
Latest posts
-
UPDATE Interesting quotes from CJ Wiley after he committed to FSU...
- Latest: pembrokedawg
-
-
-
-
