Yeah, Trump would not have lifted a finger to help Ukraine. Instead, he would have stood back and encouraged Putin, his hero.
Foreign Policy Anyone? On the eve of World Peace again….
- Thread starter -lowcountrydawg
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I don't think Blinken went to the middle east 8 times in the last 3 months of the Administration because he really likes hummus.
Yes, us libs with our pathetic empathy for the suffering and appreciation for basic human respect and dignity. Losers!
Why does he get a free pass? Was lying about the 2020 election a matter of theatre? How about his praising violent felons who injured over 120 LEOs and then giving 1600 or so blanket pardons, including to those same violent felons? He’s now claiming that his violent mob were the only victims on J6.
Not only has Trump not earned the benefit of the doubt, he’s proven that no matter how offensive or outlandish the statement or position is, we should absolutely take it at face value.
Really? I would say the evidence in terms of the blindingly impossible speed of the end of these wars once Trump took office is pretty ironclad evidence that this shit would not have happened under Trump.
Waving NATO membership in front of Ukraine had consequences - namely a million plus lives in Europe, notwithstanding the fact that Putin is a thug. We knew he was a thug.
Being weak as $hit towards Iran and its' proxies and placating the Muslim terrorist world had consequences - aka October 7th and the absolute destruction of Palestine.
The argument is super easy to make because we have a unique situation where one man was in office......then another was in office......then the first man came back into office.
2016 - 2020: World Peace
2020 - 2024: .......the worst war in Europe since WWII, Gaza, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houtis firing on US ships....generally the worst period of War in recent history globally.
Immediately in early 2025 - World Peace again?
Coincidence? Come on. Either Biden was the worst foreign policy Prez in history in terms of ensuring Peace, or Trump is the best. It really has to be one or the other given the facts and timing here.
You're right. You can't answer for Ukraine because Trump would have not have intervened and let Putin, who did attack Ukraine, do whatever damage he could do. Putin is who Trump wants to become--I am equally amazed that Republicans don't see Trump as a potential dictator whose goal is just that.
That's funny. Even the Trump hating media admitted that Trump made this happen. Full stop. Focus on mean tweets.
Totally wrong. Do some research on even left leaning sites, and you will see this. How can you with a straight face watch the world go from wars everywhere to peace everywhere in a month, and attempt to give Biden credit? This is the kind of take that takes a chunk of credibility out of anything posted below the black octopus.
Yes. Iran tried to kill him. Two plans were thwarted. He told them to make the cease fire happen or hell is coming with me when I get in office. Even the lefty media were giggling at any ascertion otherwise. You think it was lame duck Biden who made it happen. He was more focused on pardoning the people who covered for him.
Well I simply can't have someone on this bastion of reason and civility impugn my credibility sir. That would simply leave me in a twist.
The ceasefire is the exact plan the Biden Administration proposed 10 months ago. In the interim, Israel killed the leader of Hamas and went apeshit on Hezbollah. Deals tend to look better when you've gotten your chest caved in. Trump's envoy got involved in the last few days of negotiations, which tells me one of two things: 1) either there wasn't much left to do, or 2) he brought the whole thing home in just a few days, which would beg the question: Why didn't Trump do it sooner?
He also said there'd be hell to pay if the hostages weren't all released before he took office. As of yesterday, 38 days into his term, anywhere from 27 to 59 hostages have not been repatriated, and he's done f*** all about it.
So Hamas trembles at some tweets, but not others?
False equivalencies. Of course politicians lie. That goes without saying. But Trump is different.
So here is a chance to prove me wrong. I’ll give you three lies from Trump. You provide me one lie from any of the last six presidents that you would argue is comparable.
1) The 2020 election was rigged and he won in a landslide.
2) J6 was a day of love and all of the protestors were unfairly sentenced.
3) Ukraine started the war.
That’s three huge lies, with far reaching impact on national and global politics.
The only lie I can think of that comes close was the claim of WMDs in Iraq, but I don’t think Bush knew that was lie when he claimed it.
27 more that would ever have been set free under slojoe. Not sure most weren’t already killed under slojoe’s watch.
In his defense it is tough times for liberals right now. The Democratic Party is in complete disarray and the liberal media is in the worst shape I have ever seen. Some of my very best friends are liberal and they are unusually testy these days; it is really pretty sad how polarized this nation has become.
I know how I felt during the 8 years of Obama, when IMHO I watched the moral decay of America hit high gear. With that in mind I respect people who are upset these days looking at it from the other side.
Most of the time I post on here I try to back it up with sources or links.
That is something that is speculation based on feeling. You have no idea if that is true or not. Based on nothing. But you made a claim about Israel too, which you were completely off base with.
But the facts are both of these did NOT happen under Trumps watch. 10/7 was the second time the terrorists waged war on Israel during Biden's presidency. Did not happen when Trump was in office. Russia did NOT attack Ukraine under Trump
I agree with full out support for BOTH Israel and Ukraine. The problem was Biden did NOT give full out support. He limited what Ukraine was allowed to do with their defense. Yes he gave them money/weapons etc, but conditionally. You can't have conditions to win a war.
Similar with Israel, Biden's rhetoric mattered. "Israel has a right to defend itself, but..." once you put that but in there again, you are putting conditions on them. Conditions after roughly 3 dozen US citizen were slaughtered by these terrorists and 10 taken hostage by the way...
Cannot answer about Ukraine cause it was never something that came up during Trump's first term. But your question about how he would deal with Netanyahu? Someone he has been friends with for over 30 years? Along with all the support he gave Israel in his first term...
The severity of lies is relative. Without all information, we can’t determine which lies are worse than others. For example, you say your first point about the 2020 election is a lie; however, neither you nor I have all the information to be able to determine if it actually is a lie. Likewise, I would say the assurance that Biden was cognitively well and the misinformation about COVID’s origins are pretty big lies; however, without all information we can’t determine just how serious they were.
Don't lose the plot. You're the one that implied Trump brought Hamas to its knees with threats and tweets. Except for, you know, this one really big part of it.
Biden's cognitive levels were a pretty big lie. Biden's claims that the vax will prevent you from getting sick etc (not lessening sickness but full out preventing it) lies. He lied about inflation for a while...
Obama's you can keep your insurance was a pretty big lie. Also the claim that Obamacare was not a tax increase
I did not have relations with that women (although I could not give 2 shits who any president sticks their cigar in, still a lie and a destructive one cause it prevented Clinton from being able to actually get stuff done)
None of this exonerates Trump from lying about 2020 etc, but you can't pick and choose which lies are ok and aren't. All of them had MAJOR consequences and were destructive.
I agree that GWB legit thought Iraq had the WMDs when he made that statement
Trump would have let Putin run through Ukraine as he could and no US president had anything to do with Hamas attacking Israel. It is not that Trump wants peace. Rather, he wants to be a dictator like his idol, Putin. Wake up, man.
Liberalism doesn’t bother me at all, the two (conservatives) is needed to learn and grow imo.
It’s the extremes that is bothersome, both sides.
You seem to underestimate what would have happened if Biden allowed Ukraine to use US fighters to be used directly against Russia. That would have been equivalent to a direct US attack on Russia and there would have been grave consequences. The restraint that Biden showed was absolutely essential because no one wants a shooting war with Putin, even Zelensky. Zelensky did not want war with Russia. Rather, Russia attacked Ukraine in spite of Trump's claims of the reverse. So you think that my comments about Trump wanting to be a dictator is based simply on feeling? Don't you remember January 6th and Trump"s further attempt to invalidate the electoral college through his vice president Pence? Also just look at how he is using Musk. It is pretty obvious if you want to look.
Wow. World peace through the very public excoriation of the victims of a foreign invasion. This man represents a country that has been subject to systematic war crimes of the absolute worst kind and is currently fighting for its survival.
Vlad couldn't have scripted this any better.
That was fascinating. And likely part of what will ultimately lead to Zelensky accepting the fact that the status quo is unsustainable. It doesn't look like it was planned by any means. You can bump this in a month if a deal still hasn't happened. What I do know is that a deal hasn't happened in almost 4 years.....a different approach was warranted. A deal can't happen without Ukraine.
Fascinating? I found it morally repugnant and a national embarrassment on a global stage.
But it makes sense and is very consistent with what else is happening with our country. For example, the wealthiest person in the world is gutting our foreign aid to the most disadvantaged people on the planet in the most cruel and destructive manner possible to help fund trillions in tax cuts for the wealthy. And they are still going to run up the deficit!
The current administration has utterly abandoned even the pretense of any moral authority in domestic or global affairs.
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I think the status quo with a thousand lives a week in an unwinnable war is morally repugnant. And for the record, Z drew first blood in what was supposed to be a standard presser.
Maybe it was exactly what was needed to get all to the table. You down with the status quo? Z flying around the world, shaking hands, getting money, and continuing the War that he absolutely cannot win? I don't know the answer......but I predict we will see a peace deal soon. And I predict Putin won't do shit with Trump in office.
I did not say anything about Trump being a dictator. I merely commented how Trump is a great friend to Israel and a great friend of Netanyahu, and how Biden fully supported Israel in his actions, his rhetoric not so much even after the terrorists in Gaza murdered 3 dozen US citizens. Your comments on how Trump would have laid down and allowed Russia to take over Ukraine is based on feeling, I did not mention one word about dictator...
You libs should be ashamed of yourself for falling for Ukraines propaganda. If you had your way you guys would give him the National Treasure.
To say nothing about sacrificing 1 million lives in a totally unwinnable War. My how the left has changed.
Maybe the biggest evidence of massive TDS is the fact that a million lives are worth losing because of this idea that Trump and Putin like each other.
I'm not following your logic.
No one likes thousands of deaths each week, and that includes the country that was invaded and is suffering so many of those deaths.
So are you suggesting that the only path or the best path to a fair and lasting peace agreement requires Trump and Vance to:
- lie about the origin of the war and which belligerent was responsible.
- lie about Zelensky and his support at home.
- lie about how much money we have provided in aid.
- lie about our contribution as compared to Europe's contribution.
- very publicly attack, demean and belittle Zelensky, all while offering not a single word in condemnation for Russia.
Show me one example in history where aggressively attacking the victim country in a war has helped lead to a fair and lasting peace. I don't think you can do it.
Putin cannot abide having a large former Soviet state succeed as a democracy with eyes to the developed west instead of being beholden to his authoritarian regime. That's why he invaded Ukraine, and that's why there won't be a lasting peace unless we are tough and force a fair settlement that includes meaningful security guarantees. Otherwise, you are simply kicking the can down the road.
The problem is precisely that America has acted with "the pretense of moral authority" while actively abandoning it in actual practice.
Let's take the Ukrainian example. We made false promises to Kyiv to get them to give away nukes in exchange for future security guarantees, removing firm deterrence for political promises that were never going to be filled. The same president then kept Russia out of NATO, which could have created precisely the sort of political vehicle that could have made that very thin agreement hold.
Then we continued to poke the Russian bear with NATO expansion during the 21st century, while our political class (in both parties) got rich from Ukrainian corruption using it as both a geopolitical pawn and lucrative grift.
Then you get 2014 and Russia acts. Instead of addressing the map as it exists, we make a commitment to unrealistic goals - like restoring Crimea to Kyiv (when the residents of Crimea did not want to be Ukrainian.)
You get the Biden Administration which reloads with the morons that learned nothing from foreign policy blunders of the last 30 years, and send Kamala to Europe who continues to poke the bear, while at the same time having an administration that can't competently withdraw from Afghanistan. So you get a mix of both arrogance and incompetence, which translates as weakness and you get an invasion.
Kyiv holds - to the great credit of Ukrainians - and rather than recognizing that the only way for a Ukrainian victory is direct NATO engagement, seeks instead a policy of prolonged engagement because Russians dying at a higher rate than Ukrainians seems like a worthwhile policy aim. To overcome this reality, we say very nice and romantic things about democracy and international norms and have American politicians share fanfiction about Zelensky and his military.
As it turns out a US foreign policy of theatre kids-turned-policy wonks doesn't actually work in practice.
To start, I can say that what the administration has done that I've listed above will only hurt our national interest. We are ceding moral and strategic authority to an expansionist Russian dictator for no reason. We are far stronger than Russia by every possible measure and we should be driving a fair solution to the war that Russia started.
Is this how we won the Cold War?
So here is a possible approach.
Commit to continuing to support Ukraine.
Use that commitment to pressure Europe into stepping up more than they have. Reminder, they have contributed significantly more in total aid than we have already, but it's their back yard. Do even more.
Uncuff Ukraine's use of long-range missiles, with the understanding that the targets inside Russia must meet certain criteria for strategic and military value.
Get more aggressive with the economic sanctions, particularly on illegal oil exports. We know they have a one hundred ship fleet they use to get oil to black-market buyers. Shut it down. Russia's economy, which is already severely limited beyond oil and gas, would collapse.
I think you push a deal where Putin keeps some or all of his 2014 Crimea holdings, but he has to return everything won since 2022. Perhaps as a fall back, you provide him a narrow land bridge to Crimea.
In exchange for the lost territory, Ukraine gets iron clad security agreements from the west that verge on NATO-level protection, even if we don't call it that for appearances sake.
Russia is not strong. Their military is weakened, there economy is entirely dependent on oil, their international status is greatly diminished and there is no reason the west should roll over and sacrifice Ukraine, at least not as long as Ukraine is willing to continue fighting. That would guarantee further expansion from Russia, China would see the weakness and move on Taiwan, and the new global rules would be, push the west and they will fold. This would be a disaster for the US and have dire long-term consequences.
You know I'm a history guy. So, I ask you. Think of the great leaders throughout history and how they would handle this. Churchill was isolated and branded a warmonger right up until Poland was invaded. Reagan was considered a warmonger, even by some on the right, but he ended the Cold War. Roosevelt tried and failed to keep us out of WW2, but if nothing else, we had a chance to rearm before we got engaged.
So, tell me when accommodating authoritarian, expansionist dictators has worked out in the long term, or even the medium term?
Edit: Are we getting the message here yet? How much more than what has already happened will it take?
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You know we haven't been aggressive on oil? Because two of Russia's largest buyers are India and (dear NATO ally) Turkey. The EU also still relies on Russia for much of its natural gas. And that's beyond the practical concerns about America having to aggressively police Russian ships, and the additional China component which is the largest buyer of Russian oil.
That's why it wasn't done under Biden, which was an administration that saw Russian defeat as a policy objective - something Trump didn't campaign on.
libs on this board never learn
trump was rent free everyday when biden sorry ass was president
Putin endorsed Biden . Just food for thought for the chat libs.
I would add to you points that the Neo-Cons that took over foreign policy in 1999 drove most of this issue, after we blew up the Middle East, spreading Democracy. Also during this time the US foreign policy encourage NATO expansion and brought in former Soviet States, after the US have told Russia that we wouldn't do in the 90's.
Nuland/Blinken and others in the Obama cabinet pushed the Ukraine grift along and implemented the color revolution in 2014. They kept pushing for Ukraine to join NATO, over the last few years knowing eventually Putin would push back.Nuland being shit-canned last March was the beginning of the end of that neo-con group and the end result will be the new Trump/Rubio doctrine. They don't want wars, want to cut defense spending and are signaling to the EU that they will need to handle their own security.
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