Totally unrealistic given the fact that Putin is willing to continue to sacrifice millions of his own people to save face.
We make peace with our enemies. Not our friends. Time to save lives.
Foreign Policy Anyone? On the eve of World Peace again….
- Thread starter -lowcountrydawg
- Start date
We make peace with our enemies. Not our friends. Time to save lives.
The United States leadership, both Republican and Democratic, has a history of conveniently forgetting some of our agreements to other nations in years past. Is this what happened after the January 1994 U.S-Russia-Ukraine summit?
Either way IMHO Russia can never be trusted.
"The U.S.-Russia-Ukraine accord—which one of Clinton’s top aides called “the crowning achievement of the summit”—can be looked back at as a betrayal of Kyiv in one sense. Clinton and Yeltsin did promise Ukraine “full guarantees of security, as a sign of friendship and good neighborliness.” The two leaders also reaffirmed “the obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state,” including Ukraine.
Later that year, at a conference in Budapest, the U.S., Russia, and Britain formalized those security assurances to Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan (the latter two former Soviet republics had also given up the nuclear weapons on their territory), in exchange for their signing of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty."
The Truth About Ukraine’s Decision to Give Up Its Nukes in the ’90s
Either way IMHO Russia can never be trusted.
"The U.S.-Russia-Ukraine accord—which one of Clinton’s top aides called “the crowning achievement of the summit”—can be looked back at as a betrayal of Kyiv in one sense. Clinton and Yeltsin did promise Ukraine “full guarantees of security, as a sign of friendship and good neighborliness.” The two leaders also reaffirmed “the obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state,” including Ukraine.
Later that year, at a conference in Budapest, the U.S., Russia, and Britain formalized those security assurances to Ukraine, Belarus, and Kazakhstan (the latter two former Soviet republics had also given up the nuclear weapons on their territory), in exchange for their signing of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty."
The Truth About Ukraine’s Decision to Give Up Its Nukes in the ’90s
So you know what Putin is willing or unwilling to sacrifice? How exactly? And what Putin is willing or unwilling to sacrifice is determined by what price he feels he will have to pay to get what he wants.
Trump is making it exceedingly clear that the US is not going to offer much resistance or any at all to Putin achieving what he wants.
Yeah let’s find out. Let’s spend another 100 bricks and see if it is 1 million. 2 million? Doesn’t matter that Ukraine cannot win without NATO military intervention. Let’s see….that’d be cool. Also - let’s test the limits of his nuclear restraint. Interesting experiment. Follow the science.
The night before yesterday, Trump was literally talking about restoring Ukrainian land on the Black Sea.
Now we can discuss the realistic potential for that, but he has been expanding the window of opportunities for several weeks now.
Israeli strikes kill over 400 in Gaza, say Palestinians, threatening total truce collapse — Reuters
Israeli airstrikes pounded Gaza, killing more than 400 people, Palestinian health authorities said on Tuesday, threatening the complete collapse of a two-month ceasefire as Israel vowed to use more force to free hostages held by Hamas.
apple.news
A helluva lot closer than we’ve been. If your point is that allowing Israel to do what is needed to get Hamas to comply (after getting most of the hostages back on Inauguration Day)….and engaging Putin in an actual dialogue towards a peace deal….with Ukraine already on board…..is somehow evidence that we aren’t much much closer to peace on both fronts than we ever were in the last admin, I don’t know what to tell you.
Israeli strikes kill over 400 in Gaza, say Palestinians, threatening total truce collapse — Reuters
Israeli airstrikes pounded Gaza, killing more than 400 people, Palestinian health authorities said on Tuesday, threatening the complete collapse of a two-month ceasefire as Israel vowed to use more force to free hostages held by Hamas.apple.news
I stand by my prediction.
Killing terrorists who don’t comply? Check.
Actually working to broker peace instead of giving money and speeches to prolong an UNWINNABLE war? Check.
Please defend the Biden foreign policy. And explain how what Trump is doing towards getting peace is misguided.
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I replied to the post that started this thread, and I've pointed out several times that you seem committed to taking premature victory laps, and rather cocky ones at that.
"Israel Gaza War effectively stopped on day 1 of Trump Presidency. Hostages on scheduled return."
Given that the war has primarily consisted of Isreal bombing and otherwise rendering major parts of Gaza uninhabitable, a large-scale bombing that kills hundreds is indicative that the war is not "effectively stopped". Quite the opposite.
Who could have known that ending a war between Isreal and the Palestinians might be complicated?
"Could be wrong, but reading tea leaves listening to UK Prime Minister…..feels like Ukraine / Russia War about to end in the following way:
1) American taxpayers and workers benefiting from Americans working in Ukraine to mine rare earth minerals that benefit American Companies.
2) Any peace-keeping force boots on the ground responsibilities borne by Europe."
As of today, Russia is refusing to play ball and has stated very clearly that the only "concession" they are willing to make is to promise to stop taking more land than what they have already captured. This supposed promise comes with the demand of no NATO and no European boots on the ground, which means the promise is exactly as useless as all of the other Putin promises regarding Ukraine.
Putin already made our delegation, led by Witkoff, wait once and he is doing it again. Here is Putin laughing about making them wait again. We are getting zero respect from Putin, and why would we? We pre-conceded most major negotiating points and Trump and his administration have been repeating Russian lies and propaganda about Ukraine while being amazingly circumspect (to put it kindly) regarding any criticism of the country that started the war and who could end it today were they so inclined or felt enough pressure to do so.
In fact, the ongoing existence of NATO appears to be in real peril, which is Putin's long-time, number one foreign policy goal. He is downright giddy right now.
"IS TRUMP A FOREIGN POLICY SAVANT? OR WAS BIDEN THE BIGGEST FOREIGN POLICY IDIOT OF ALL TIME? IT HAS TO BE ONE OR THE OTHER."
Care to reconsider the all-caps, binary choice you posited here?
Neither Ukraine nor Gaza are resolved, but we have effectively alienated our European allies for nor discernable benefit, we've alienated Canada, our closest ally and biggest trading partner, for no discernable benefit while insulting their sovereignty and igniting a mutually destructive trade war. We are even threatening another NATO ally regarding their sovereign territory in Greenland.
This may all resolve itself brilliantly and Trump may be proven to be a "foreign policy savant". If so, that will be determined over a period of years, not sixty days. As of today, there is nothing about the early returns that is encouraging.
I encourage you to keep bumping this thread as all this plays out. Anyone with common sense can see that we are in a totally different and much better place in these conflicts than we were in December. Your hatred of Trump totally blinds your own common sense.
Keep bumpin’
If your measure of Trump's success is that he ends the war by cutting off all support for Ukraine while damaging our relationships with key allies and giving Putin everything he wants, you may be proven correct. I don't think that constitutes a win by any measure given literally anyone could accomplish that.
I guess that means you are sticking with the "Trump is a foreign policy savant" position.
shocking that you would pre-emptively throw cold water on an outcome that would have to be agreed to by Ukraine….and would save maybe a million lives? Because….Trump. Bump this if and when peace happens. And bump again when Putin invades again on Trump’s watch.If your measure of Trump's success is that he ends the war by cutting off all support for Ukraine while damaging our relationships with key allies and giving Putin everything he wants, you may be proven correct. I don't think that constitutes a win by any measure given literally anyone could accomplish that.
I guess that means you are sticking with the "Trump is a foreign policy savant" position.
I'm not the person who declared three weeks into a new presidential term that my guy was a savant or the previous guy was the biggest foreign policy idiot of all time. That was you.
Foreign policy is extremely complex and nuanced, and it doesn't lend itself to simple, binary analysis. Peace at any cost tends to not make for a lasting peace, as history has proven time and time again, and I'm concerned that's where Trump is headed.
Trump may be proven to be a unique foreign policy genius who remakes the world order greatly in our favor. I detailed a few of the reasons I have my concerns, but regardless, declaring victory now definitely has George Bush on the Abraham Lincoln vibes.
I don’t think Trump is a foreign policy savant. I lean more towards the latter. The breakneck speed at which movement towards peace and border security is happening is more damning to Joe Biden than anything else out there.
Good debate to be had on the economy, tariffs, etc. Ultimately I believe will prove out in Trump’s favor…..but a legit debate.
I don’t see how the way Ukraine, Israel, and most of all the border is playing out….is anything but concrete proof of how terrible Biden was at President.
Perhaps this will help you understand.
Trump's former National Security Advisor knows as much about Russia and Putin as anyone in the world.
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The dynamic with the "Russia experts" is that they are all on record for their entire careers basically saying that getting peace with Putin is impossible. They can't just all the sudden reverse an opinion held the entire time......my advice to them and anyone else - let it play out. The status quo was terrible, and generally the "experts" inexplicably seem content with thousands of lives a week in an unwinnable War. What's his solution? Realistic solution given the fact that Putin can undoubtedly outlast and beat Ukraine, and we are unwilling to risk what happens if NATO gets involved.
You will undoubtedly disagree, but this is when an outsider without a career in politics and/or defense has an advantage.....unaffected by the groupthink. Just working to broker peace.
Two predictions:
A peace deal gets done, and American business interests (and Americans) will be present in both Ukraine and Russia. And Putin keeps it. Because he will believe from Trump that breaking it will be more painful than keeping it.
You will claim that the peace deal is too one-sided. But notwithstanding your objection, Putin will keep it, and lives will be saved.
Putin agreed with Trump to a limited cease fire and launched a mass drone attack on Ukraine around the same time Trump was announcing the big breakthrough.
Putin is laughing at our weakness and mocking Trump while he continues to kill Ukrainians.
He was raised there...it's in his DNA and he sucks like they all do.
Trump played right into Putins hands - his goals for “peace” are bilateral talks, shutting Ukraine out, cutting off all for an aid to Ukraine making a future invasion all but inevitable, and separating the US from Europe.
And Biden’s policy? Just send money and watch 2k young men get slaughtered every week in a War that Ukraine cannot win?
Let. It. Play. Out.
“Ooooh. Ooohhh. Look Putin launched drones and killed a person while Trump was talking!!! Trump got punked!!!”
The guy is working to broker peace between one nation that stands zero chance in the War without NATO involvement that risks nuclear war and another nation run by an evil man that has a clear advantage and is willing to sacrifice as many lives as he can.
Again - the free worlds policy was to isolate Russia diplomatically - freeze assets - drain resources - turn Russian citizens, as well as the world’s opinion against Putin to force regime change. The guy had literally aligned himself with parish states like Iran and North Korea. Many Republicans advocated for this strategy and still do.
The loss of life is incredibly unfortunate, but Russia started it. Now the master dealmaker has legitimized the entire venture, will acquiesce to Putin‘s wildest dreams and has isolated the US from our closest allies. Watch how China has handled this entire conflict, that is a serious country. The US under MAGA is a very unserious country.
So continue to send money and sacrifice millions of lives in an unwinnable War. Got it.
No winners in war. Russia started it. Stay the course - in fact double down - and force regime change - WW3 is happening as a proxy/shadow war, and all the US is doing is retreating and abandoning their allies. There will never be nuclear war - the threat was Russias only card, but as they know, no one wins that war. And China would never allow it. Trump even dignifying the possibility is yet another way he plays right into Putin‘s plan.
Could not disagree more because there is no upside here. No victory. If you believe Putin would never nuke anyone I guess you think NATO should step in and win the War for Z ? Putin is kicking Ukraine’s ass and has been since last fall. We either broker peace or we willingly sacrifice the rest of Ukraine…..to “punish” Putin. Long past time for this War to end, and 60 percent of this country agrees. The only reason it isn’t 80 percent is because Trump is involved…and 20 percent of our country would kick chocolate lab puppies if Trump came out against it.
I find that to be a very simplistic view, and not aligned with our allies and many Republican lawmakers.
Sanctions were working. Retreating now, like in Afghanistan, only emboldens future aggression.
Will be interesting to see what happens once Putin calls Trump‘s bluff. Will he double down on sanctions and military pressure as he is threatening if Putin does not accept terms? Or is it peace under Putin‘s terms just for the sake of peace.
Peace is not the absence of war, particularly if it comes as a result of rewarding an aggressor.
Just ask Neville Chamberlain.
Totally different situation, pre-dating NATO, and with the knowledge on both sides that if NATO actually was called into action, they would destroy Russia. Hitler was a much bigger threat....and the US was nowhere in the equation.
We are effectively doing Ukraine the worst dis-service we could do....by "kind of" supporting them but falling short of NATO support. They can't win without NATO. In that scenario, peace absolutely is the absence of War.
Toby Flenderson
Not the Scranton Strangler
Uh, hey, so, Trump ending the Ukraine war? Totally not like Chamberlain giving Hitler a freebie.
Look, Chamberlain was this nervous guy handing over Sudetenland to a psycho who hadn’t even started his big rampage yet—just pure appeasement, y’know? Trump’s dealing with a war that’s already a mess since 2014, Russia’s got Crimea, Donbas is a wreck.
It’s not “rewarding” Putin with new stuff; it’s more like calling timeout on a fistfight. Hitler was a rising nutcase, Putin’s just hanging on with a tired army.
Chamberlain had no spine, Trump’s all about the art of the deal—big difference. Munich kicked off World War II; this wouldn’t.
Ukraine’s not some pushover either—they’ve got a voice, unlike Czechoslovakia. So, uh, yeah, not the same vibe at all.
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