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Slava Ukraini!

I can’t stand Russia or Putin. I get the concern, but other things concern me way more at the moment is all. At some point we have to make a choice. Can’t send them money forever.
Specifically regarding the border, the only solutions are legislative - serious work to be done there, which will require both parties to come to the table with serious intent. Too bad it was scuttled in 2014.

As for Ukraine, I do believe that the failure to win that war would represent an existential threat to Europe and the Western liberal order that was established in 1944 and from which we have all benefitted.
 
Specifically regarding the border, the only solutions are legislative - serious work to be done there, which will require both parties to come to the table with serious intent. Too bad it was scuttled in 2014.

As for Ukraine, I do believe that the failure to win that war would represent an existential threat to Europe and the Western liberal order that was established in 1944 and from which we have all benefitted.
That is just it. They know the Ukraine can’t win. There isn’t enough man power. They are just hoping to negotiate from a little better position for the Ukraine. That’s coming from articles from left leaning places. There is no way Putin will ever let this be considered less than a victory.
 
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This may be relevant.



Ukraine is defending itself from a brutal, unprovoked attack that has included a multitude of war crimes, attacks on civilians and the kidnapping and removal of thousands of children to Russia.

Suggesting that we are somehow sparing the Ukrainian people harm by withholding the aid they need to defend themselves is truly twisted logic that only makes sense if you fully commit to the entire Russian propaganda narrative regarding the invasion and the war.
Can you provide your source on all of these war crimes and the taking of children?

Withholding aid and getting them to the negotiation table is in their best interest. The Biden administration is responsible for this disaster that has destroyed their country in the first place. Ukraine is not our ally, and we have no real Reason to be in this war. They are a deeply corrupt country and sending them billions of dollars to hurt Russia at the cost of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians sounds fairly messed up to me. This should be Europe’s responsibility. We are $35 trillion in debt and that is growing massively. Our border is wide open and we have been flooded with over 10 million illegals in 3 years. We are in no condition to be helping other countries.
 
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While our border remains unsecured.

It is funny because Dems have became war mongers and all about big businesses.
both parties are in bed with the establishment deep state who never met a war they weren't attracted to. Obviously, the republicans get credit for the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq as well as Desert Storm. The Vietnam War, especially after JFK was assassinated really ramped up under Democratic presidency. Conveniently JFK who was opposed to a full scale military war in Vietnam and was critical of the military industrial complex was shot dead in Dallas and LBJ took over the reigns of the war effort. LBJ was full blown war monger. The Vietnam War officially started under Johnson after the Gulf of Tonkin incident
 
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Crimea will be returned to Ukrainian control. Guessing a UN-manned DMZ through Kherson and Donbas, with 300B in frozen Russian assets going to rebuild throughout the country.

but that's just a guess. and your guess is every bit as good as mine.

The Russians have such heavy losses and will now suffer much worse losses when the next wave of equipment is in play. They've already lost more men than we did in Vietnam.
All that and then settle for the Donbas? I'm just not sure Putin can survive it and all he cares about is his own ass.
 
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Can you provide your source on all of these war crimes and the taking of children?

Withholding aid and getting them to the negotiation table is in their best interest. The Biden administration is responsible for this disaster that has destroyed their country in the first place. Ukraine is not our ally, and we have no real Reason to be in this war. They are a deeply corrupt country and sending them billions of dollars to hurt Russia at the cost of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians sounds fairly messed up to me. This should be Europe’s responsibility. We are $35 trillion in debt and that is growing massively. Our border is wide open and we have been flooded with over 10 million illegals in 3 years. We are in no condition to be helping other countries.
The Biden administration is responsible for Russia invading Ukraine? I’m not even sure how to respond to that take, it’s so absurd.

I bet, had you been around in 1941, you would have said that we provoked the war with Japan by withholding oil shipments while you completely ignored the naked Japanese expansionism in China and the rape of Nanking.

Putin has been quite open about his desire to reconstitute the Soviet Union.

Regarding war crimes, I know how this drill works. Anything I offer up will be summarily dismissed as propaganda, given I wasn’t there and don’t have first hand proof.

Here is a UN report, which you’ll dismiss, because you find Russian reports more credible.

 
They always have been. The facade of being the "caring humanitarians" is and always was total bullshit.

Yeah I know they are fake and power hungry. Just strange that their voters who claimed to be anti war still vote for them.
 
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The Biden administration is responsible for Russia invading Ukraine? I’m not even sure how to respond to that take, it’s so absurd.

I bet, had you been around in 1941, you would have said that we provoked the war with Japan by withholding oil shipments while you completely ignored the naked Japanese expansionism in China and the rape of Nanking.

Putin has been quite open about his desire to reconstitute the Soviet Union.

Regarding war crimes, I know how this drill works. Anything I offer up will be summarily dismissed as propaganda, given I wasn’t there and don’t have first hand proof.

Here is a UN report, which you’ll dismiss, because you find Russian reports more credible.

1. The Biden administration prevented negotiation talks that both Ukraine and Putin wanted very early on.
2. The US and NATO pushing right up to the Russian border knowing perfectly well they were provoking Putin.
3. Russia didn’t do this under Trump. Obama and Biden were in charge.
4. UN report? Really? I trust them as much as a Biden news conference after his 11 AM nap time.
 
1. The Biden administration prevented negotiation talks that both Ukraine and Putin wanted very early on.
2. The US and NATO pushing right up to the Russian border knowing perfectly well they were provoking Putin.
3. Russia didn’t do this under Trump. Obama and Biden were in charge.
4. UN report? Really? I trust them as much as a Biden news conference after his 11 AM nap time.
If you can share your best source on point one, I’ll read it and respond.

In November, ‘22, the US pushed Zalensky to drop the refusal to negotiate with Putin, which is the opposite of what you suggested.


When Tucker interviewed Putin in Moscow, Putin used the first thirty minutes to explain Russia’s historical right to Ukraine and went back nearly a thousand years to begin his justification, which was a period that predated the founding of NATO by about 930 years. Putin’s rhetoric and his actions in Chechnya and Georgia show his expansionist aims quite clearly.

Trumps own National Security Advisor has stated categorically that Trump planned on exiting NATO in a second term. Why would Putin screw that up by invading Ukraine?


Regarding war crimes, what’s an acceptable source? Or do you simply take everything Putin says at face value?
 
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Yeah I know they are fake and power hungry. Just strange that their voters who claimed to be anti war still vote for them.
That's because most democRAT voters use that bullshit as a cover or a justification to cover their real reason which is usually because either they or some family member they love is involved in sick behavior of some sort ... or they're just fatass, sloppy, lazy cowards.
 
Specifically regarding the border, the only solutions are legislative - serious work to be done there, which will require both parties to come to the table with serious intent. Too bad it was scuttled in 2014.

As for Ukraine, I do believe that the failure to win that war would represent an existential threat to Europe and the Western liberal order that was established in 1944 and from which we have all benefitted.
I cannot disagree enough on your first point. Regarding the border - just enforce laws that are already in existence! That’s it. Decrease funding to Mexico if they don’t help - that’s what Trump meant when he said they would pay for the wall. But regardless, commit the manpower necessary to deport those currently being held. Deport anyone who commits a crime and is undocumented/here illegally - even if it’s jaywalking.
This may surprise you, but I am in favor of naturalizing a significant number of those that have been here for multiple years and are working. But before we do that we must remove and deport a significant number of the recent entries. This includes Chinese who have entered illegally.
JC
 
The Russians have such heavy losses and will now suffer much worse losses when the next wave of equipment is in play. They've already lost more men than we did in Vietnam.
All that and then settle for the Donbas? I'm just not sure Putin can survive it and all he cares about is his own ass.
I was suggesting they don't even get that. But yeah, something is going to have to give inside Russia. would be the best thing that happened to them since the Year of the Thaw.
 
I cannot disagree enough on your first point. Regarding the border - just enforce laws that are already in existence! That’s it. Decrease funding to Mexico if they don’t help - that’s what Trump meant when he said they would pay for the wall. But regardless, commit the manpower necessary to deport those currently being held. Deport anyone who commits a crime and is undocumented/here illegally - even if it’s jaywalking.
This may surprise you, but I am in favor of naturalizing a significant number of those that have been here for multiple years and are working. But before we do that we must remove and deport a significant number of the recent entries. This includes Chinese who have entered illegally.
JC
If you do a simple search of Ruaaia kidnapped Ukrainian children you'll fine lots of sources of what's happening.
 
If you do a simple search of Russia kidnapped Ukrainian children you'll fine lots of sources of what's happening.
I am surprised the Russian brutality toward Christian evangelicals in those areas of Ukraine they've taken doesn't move the needle for some.
 
While our politicians are generally not examples of our best and brightest, she is a truly unique combination of ego, entitlement, hypocrisy, stupidity and hatred.
You can add a lot more adjectives when describing her. Tactless. Bat shit crazy. Among other things. I rarely say anything that can be construed as positive when talking about her. But she knows how to play to the core of her base. She never gives in. Ever. She will continue down this same line as long as they keep electing her. Which will likely be a while. She was a total nobody a few years ago.

Also, when all the smoke clears between Russia and the Ukraine, the most interesting conclusions will be whose propoganda is worse. I know this batch of money will probably help them more than at any other time we sent them anything. They were hanging on by a thread. We need to take advantage of this added strength to try to negotiate an end while the Ukraine is in a stronger position. Only way it ends. “Well” I would hope both sides of the isle believes we can’t send them money forever.
 
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You make good points, but, to be clear - that is definitely not the only way it ends. there are other, better, outcomes possible, and significantly worse outcomes possible.
Point taken. I assume you are meaning Putin to be overthrown. To be more clear, the only way it ends in a way that is more under our control is negotiation. A desperate putin is not a good thing for anyone imo. That is the worst case scenario. That is why I think there is no good way this ends “well” without negotiations. I think I was just missing that word.
 
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Point taken. I assume you are meaning Putin to be overthrown.
A lingering artifact of Trump's rhetoric is that European nations aren't paying the freight here, but they are. European aid and commitments now outstrips US aid even with the $60B, and in terms of %GDP USA is near the bottom (as it should be).

Trump repeated this the other day, but it's not true - and if he were smarter/better he would take credit for that shift instead of trying to deny that it's occurred.

I am not sure how we should feel about European re-armament, but it's happening, and I expect that regardless of which candidate wins in the fall, we will be seeing increased EU leadership, whether we want it or not. The US will still be the world's cop, especially on the seas, but I think Europeans, at least, have got the message that they can't rely on the USA to fight this war for them.
 
A lingering artifact of Trump's rhetoric is that European nations aren't paying the freight here, but they are. European aid and commitments now outstrips US aid even with the $60B, and in terms of %GDP USA is near the bottom (as it should be).

Trump repeated this the other day, but it's not true - and if he were smarter/better he would take credit for that shift instead of trying to deny that it's occurred.

I am not sure how we should feel about European re-armament, but it's happening, and I expect that regardless of which candidate wins in the fall, we will be seeing increased EU leadership, whether we want it or not. The US will still be the world's cop, especially on the seas, but I think Europeans, at least, have got the message that they can't rely on the USA to fight this war for them.
Your last paragraph is an I hope so. I don’t disagree with that. Regardless of what people’s opinion of Trump is, some of the things he has brought to the forefront aren’t bad things. Not trying to start a debate there. Goes both ways with him, but it is good to see things have changed some. I don’t know how anyone cant admit things around the world seem to be a little more dangerous at the moment. I worry what is next. Who is starting a war next?
 
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Regardless of what people’s opinion of Trump is, some of the things he has brought to the forefront aren’t bad things. Not trying to start a debate there.
I was conceding that in this instance - though I am not totally sure the response is as he intended (reduced credibility drives reduced reliance) but it cannot be denied that he + Putin's invasion are the cause and this the likely effect.
 
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