NonDawg Educators in Rural Schools

[fprex]

Our last thread that devolved into a sea of educational debate because one of our own is thinking about leaving education was a fascinating read. Something @LouisianaDawg318 mentioned caught my eye and we began a private conversation that was extremely informative. So I want to start another educational thread to get some feedback on a topic close to my heart.

I have been in just about every type of school district at this point in my career. My current position is as an assistant principal at a rural school. I have taught in Clarke County and Walton County in Georgia as well as Knoxville and finally out in a rural county that is pretty unique. Education in a rural county is unlike anything I’ve seen before. While that laid back attitude can be comforting to be around at times, it permeates everything they do from academics to athletics. It is easily the most difficult job of my career and I had a few tough teaching gigs in Athens and Monroe.

There are 3 types of rural areas:

1. Fringe (1-5 miles from a larger city)
2. Distant (6-25 miles from a larger city)
3. Remote (26+ miles from a larger city)

Believe it or not, the remote rural districts fare better because they tend to keep their talent home. Distant rural areas seem to struggle because they are close enough for a 35 minute drive to the major city and that tends to drain the teaching talent. I gave a speech at the beginning of the year to my teachers that we needed to develop a Moneyball approach to teaching. We couldn’t do things the way bigger districts did them for various reasons - we needed a unique approach that was going to work for us.

@LouisianaDawg318 mentioned his district has moved to a 4 day school week in an attempt to bring teaching talent in. He feels it’s working and has been a success so far but the data will determine that fate ultimately.

With that said, if you are in a rural area and your school/district is rather successful, what is it that makes you thrive? These types of areas typically struggle to attract the top teaching talent as they are farther away and don’t pay as well. How does your district lure that talent in?

Any discussion is greatly appreciated and if you would prefer to send me a private message, that works just as well.

 

[dawgflo]

Following. And thank you for being in education.

 

[DPTDawg18]

Not sure about luring in talent but I’ve noticed that throwing money at the problem hardly ever works unless you have a great culture of teachers and parents that care about teaching. Take Dooly, Wilcox county for example. They have got millions from the government and new technology but it doesn’t mean anything if the teachers aren’t actually teaching and the parents aren’t helping facilitate learning at home

 

[fprex]

Not sure about luring in talent but I’ve noticed that throwing money at the problem hardly ever works unless you have a great culture of teachers and parents that care about teaching. Take Dooly, Wilcox county for example. They have got millions from the government and new technology but it doesn’t mean anything if the teachers aren’t actually teaching and the parents aren’t helping facilitate learning at home

Exactly. You clearly see what the issue is here.

This county has apathy that is multi-generational, honestly. We will not get much help from parents - that’s a confirmed fact.

It’s why I’ve said we need to Moneyball this thing. What others do will not work. We need outside the box suggestions.

 

[83WRDawg]

Teach your 3rd graders to read proficiently and you’ll be more famous than Taylor Swift. It’s the crisis nobody cares about.

 

[dawgs74]

Our last thread that devolved into a sea of educational debate because one of our own is thinking about leaving education was a fascinating read. Something @LouisianaDawg318 mentioned caught my eye and we began a private conversation that was extremely informative. So I want to start another educational thread to get some feedback on a topic close to my heart.

I have been in just about every type of school district at this point in my career. My current position is as an assistant principal at a rural school. I have taught in Clarke County and Walton County in Georgia as well as Knoxville and finally out in a rural county that is pretty unique. Education in a rural county is unlike anything I’ve seen before. While that laid back attitude can be comforting to be around at times, it permeates everything they do from academics to athletics. It is easily the most difficult job of my career and I had a few tough teaching gigs in Athens and Monroe.

There are 3 types of rural areas:

1. Fringe (1-5 miles from a larger city)
2. Distant (6-25 miles from a larger city)
3. Remote (26+ miles from a larger city)

Believe it or not, the remote rural districts fare better because they tend to keep their talent home. Distant rural areas seem to struggle because they are close enough for a 35 minute drive to the major city and that tends to drain the teaching talent. I gave a speech at the beginning of the year to my teachers that we needed to develop a Moneyball approach to teaching. We couldn’t do things the way bigger districts did them for various reasons - we needed a unique approach that was going to work for us.

@LouisianaDawg318 mentioned his district has moved to a 4 day school week in an attempt to bring teaching talent in. He feels it’s working and has been a success so far but the data will determine that fate ultimately.

With that said, if you are in a rural area and your school/district is rather successful, what is it that makes you thrive? These types of areas typically struggle to attract the top teaching talent as they are farther away and don’t pay as well. How does your district lure that talent in?

Any discussion is greatly appreciated and if you would prefer to send me a private message, that works just as well.

I am elementary principal in a rural district of Northeast GA. Very successful academically. My school was named a Title l Reward school for 22-23. This means we were on a list of schools with the top 5% growth in the state for Title l schools.

With that said, if you are in a rural area and your school/district is rather successful, what is it that makes you thrive?
My teachers. They work their tails off. Also, linking testing performance to better opportunities (e.g., gifted and highly talented pullout class, incentives for hitting reading goals, being chosen for STEAM club or robotics, middle school advanced classes, not being labeled EIP- Early Intervention Program or having to be put in Tier intervention classes). Our gifted and highly talented students get special field trips. Just a few I think of off the top of my head.

These types of areas typically struggle to attract the top teaching talent as they are farther away and don’t pay as well. How does your district lure that talent in?
We get some leaving larger districts like Gwinnett or Forsyth for a more small town feel. Our local supplement is about not very much. Teachers from Gwinnett typically lose about 10K in pay by moving here. The trade offs are lower property taxes, no traffic, and somewhat fewer discipline problems. Noticed I said somewhat.

Hope this helps.

 

[slobbered]

I had a teacher that would hit us with a yard stick if we didn't pay attention. It worked. We paid attention. I still don't remember him teaching us anything.

 

[fprex]

Teach your 3rd graders to read proficiently and you’ll be more famous than Taylor Swift. It’s the crisis nobody cares about.

Well, we have a 3rd grade retention law if ELA scores aren’t high enough.

 

[DPTDawg18]

Exactly. You clearly see what the issue is here.

This county has apathy that is multi-generational, honestly. We will not get much help from parents - that’s a confirmed fact.

It’s why I’ve said we need to Moneyball this thing. What others do will not work. We need outside the box suggestions.

Grew up in Hawkinsville and many of my classmates stayed local or took jobs at the Air Force base in Warner Robins. I think it would take recognizing talents early and then teach those talents. Everybody doesn’t need college but would benefit from a trade. Teach balancing a budget, compounded interest, etc.

Teachers with low morale need to go and recruit new graduates and hopefully offer a rural/underserved student loan forgiveness program. One rotten fruit can cause the whole bag to spoil

 

[rectomo]

I had a teacher that would hit us with a yard stick if we didn't pay attention. It worked. We paid attention. I still don't remember him teaching us anything.

Sounds like Mother Mary Margaret. I always thought she was a dude. Her razor stubble was very disconcerting.

 

[wwforest]

Teach your 3rd graders to read proficiently and you’ll be more famous than Taylor Swift. It’s the crisis nobody cares about.

Actually in GA the number of prison beds needed in the future are based on 3rd grade reading levels.

 

[WBDawg13]

Exactly. You clearly see what the issue is here.

This county has apathy that is multi-generational, honestly. We will not get much help from parents - that’s a confirmed fact.

It’s why I’ve said we need to Moneyball this thing. What others do will not work. We need outside the box suggestions.

I’m not a teacher and never have been. My sister taught for 35 years at all different levels in several different states and districts. Even though I’m not directly involved, this subject interests me. She loved what she did, as it seems you do as well. It would be a good idea to get a good cross section of current and former teachers to get feedback. I’m married to an Atlanta girl who now hates big cities and wants to move to the country. I’m sure there are a lot of qualified educators that would value getting back to really teaching students in a good situation…maybe in a rural area. Not like any of you went into teaching to get rich. Sorry to chime in as an outsider but I hope you can get some good direction on this.

 

[NWGA_DAWG]

As a product of rural public schools, having a community that cares about the school seems to be a big deal. Even with City v County imo.

 

[UGrAd84]

Three years ago, Georgia initiated and funded a new department at the GDOE called the Department of Rural Education and Innovation. It was an acknowledgment that rural areas have unique educational challenges. Also, connectivity issues were highlighted and some really innovative strategies are being implemented as well as additional funding. You can access lots of resources by contacting this department.

Having led a somewhat rural district, I found it beneficial to partner with a very large and affluent district in our area. Many times some of the more lucrative federal grants require a certain percentage of student poverty. The larger district contributed lots of expertise (more capacity at the district office) and our district had the necessary level of poverty to qualify. It was a mutually beneficial partnership.

 

[83WRDawg]

Well, we have a 3rd grade retention law if ELA scores aren’t high enough.

But does it work? It didn’t work in GA. It’s worth trying though.

 

[CalienteDawg]

Well, we have a 3rd grade retention law if ELA scores aren’t high enough.

I apologize for the long post but this was something that I gave a lot of thought to back in my work travel days. Laying down in a Fairfield inn by yourself after two martinis on a Tuesday allows one plenty of time to ponder things.

As a huge believer in the saying “problems rarely get better with age”…the 3rd grade checkpoint just makes a lot of sense to me. For most cases I just don’t think you can “fix” a HSer or probably even a MSer. So without any data to back it up, I really think that making sure a 3rd grader is ready for elementary school just checks out. I think you may have a chance at “fixing” primary school kids.

My moneyball idea is completely based upon anecdotal experiences so I assume it is loaded with flaws and pitfalls that I can see and many i don’t. This idea really formed when my daughter was in lower school as well as watching the development of my friend Tim.

My daughter was born in April and in her lower school friend group she had close friends with September, December, June and July birthdays. The two kids born in September were much more advanced both physically as well as mentally when the kids were in 1st and 2nd grade. They had been walking the earth 10-20% longer than their friends.

I met my friend Tim in first grade, in second we were in the top classes together and in 3rd we were in the “gifted” program. He was so much smarter than us in math but was never in our top reading groups. However a year or two later I learned he was held back in 1st grade and was actually a year older…but really only about seven months. He was only held back because he was a slow reader.

My thought process wonders…is their any value in the elimination of K, 1, 2 grades and checkpoints in exchange of a more skill based checkpoints? My friend Tim would have easily caught up by 3rd grade and my daughters July friends would have been avoided labeled as behind when in fact they were just behind their fall bday friends by 9 months.

However the true advantage I think with this is that grouping more kids together, they can broken up into more specialized groups since we aren’t restricted by grades. A good math mind but weak reader could get some extra reading group work and skip a math one since he/she has already passed the math check point. Smart kids could be bumped up with slightly older / more advanced kids so they have the chance to be challenged and constructively struggle.

I can definitely list some flaws with this idea but was just something I pondered years ago alone in a Fairfield inn.

 

[fprex]

But does it work? It didn’t work in GA. It’s worth trying though.

We’re in Year 2 of that law.

 

[fprex]

As a product of rural public schools, having a community that cares about the school seems to be a big deal. Even with City v County imo.

While I certainly agree with this premise, this isn’t something that can be fixed. Either your community cares or they do not. Mine is full of apathy. It’s an opponent I’ve never quite had to battle at this scale.

A lot of folks are giving solid suggestions and I appreciate it. However, most have been at the elementary (I’m in Middle) level.

 

[Lumpdawg]

I had a teacher that would hit us with a yard stick if we didn't pay attention.

We need to bring this back! I once got reprimanded by my principal for asking a student who was floating out, “Hey! What’s the color of the sky in your world right now? Float back in, okay.” I thought my approach was light compared to having chalk whizzed at me like my 7th grade teacher. Now, I tap students on the shoulder and ask them to please lift their head up and pay attention.

 

[K_Walt32]

Our last thread that devolved into a sea of educational debate because one of our own is thinking about leaving education was a fascinating read. Something @LouisianaDawg318 mentioned caught my eye and we began a private conversation that was extremely informative. So I want to start another educational thread to get some feedback on a topic close to my heart.

I have been in just about every type of school district at this point in my career. My current position is as an assistant principal at a rural school. I have taught in Clarke County and Walton County in Georgia as well as Knoxville and finally out in a rural county that is pretty unique. Education in a rural county is unlike anything I’ve seen before. While that laid back attitude can be comforting to be around at times, it permeates everything they do from academics to athletics. It is easily the most difficult job of my career and I had a few tough teaching gigs in Athens and Monroe.

There are 3 types of rural areas:

1. Fringe (1-5 miles from a larger city)
2. Distant (6-25 miles from a larger city)
3. Remote (26+ miles from a larger city)

Believe it or not, the remote rural districts fare better because they tend to keep their talent home. Distant rural areas seem to struggle because they are close enough for a 35 minute drive to the major city and that tends to drain the teaching talent. I gave a speech at the beginning of the year to my teachers that we needed to develop a Moneyball approach to teaching. We couldn’t do things the way bigger districts did them for various reasons - we needed a unique approach that was going to work for us.

@LouisianaDawg318 mentioned his district has moved to a 4 day school week in an attempt to bring teaching talent in. He feels it’s working and has been a success so far but the data will determine that fate ultimately.

With that said, if you are in a rural area and your school/district is rather successful, what is it that makes you thrive? These types of areas typically struggle to attract the top teaching talent as they are farther away and don’t pay as well. How does your district lure that talent in?

Any discussion is greatly appreciated and if you would prefer to send me a private message, that works just as well.

I wonder if the biggest thing in more rural areas is that parent involvement, at least in the home, is probably better than busier areas.

Growing up in smaller towns you have more accountability because you are more likely to run in to someone you know and you do not want them to know little timmy is being bad or struggling with grades. But in gwinnett county I could go weeks without seeing people I know randomly at the store.

My wife taught in GCPS for 3 years and the parent involvement was a joke. Half her 5th graders would go home to take care of younger siblings and not get homework done or struggled to get things for projects because the parent always worked nights. Kindergarten was a little different but sometimes out of 25 kids she would only have like 7 conferences for parent teacher conferences.

 

[ephesiandawg]

Our last thread that devolved into a sea of educational debate because one of our own is thinking about leaving education was a fascinating read. Something @LouisianaDawg318 mentioned caught my eye and we began a private conversation that was extremely informative. So I want to start another educational thread to get some feedback on a topic close to my heart.

I have been in just about every type of school district at this point in my career. My current position is as an assistant principal at a rural school. I have taught in Clarke County and Walton County in Georgia as well as Knoxville and finally out in a rural county that is pretty unique. Education in a rural county is unlike anything I’ve seen before. While that laid back attitude can be comforting to be around at times, it permeates everything they do from academics to athletics. It is easily the most difficult job of my career and I had a few tough teaching gigs in Athens and Monroe.

There are 3 types of rural areas:

1. Fringe (1-5 miles from a larger city)
2. Distant (6-25 miles from a larger city)
3. Remote (26+ miles from a larger city)

Believe it or not, the remote rural districts fare better because they tend to keep their talent home. Distant rural areas seem to struggle because they are close enough for a 35 minute drive to the major city and that tends to drain the teaching talent. I gave a speech at the beginning of the year to my teachers that we needed to develop a Moneyball approach to teaching. We couldn’t do things the way bigger districts did them for various reasons - we needed a unique approach that was going to work for us.

@LouisianaDawg318 mentioned his district has moved to a 4 day school week in an attempt to bring teaching talent in. He feels it’s working and has been a success so far but the data will determine that fate ultimately.

With that said, if you are in a rural area and your school/district is rather successful, what is it that makes you thrive? These types of areas typically struggle to attract the top teaching talent as they are farther away and don’t pay as well. How does your district lure that talent in?

Any discussion is greatly appreciated and if you would prefer to send me a private message, that works just as well.

I’m by no means an expert or professional but my kids have been raised in a rural community , I have mixed opinions or feelings . Great people I’ve known all my life love my child being around people I’ve known my whole life - I think our school system is geared toward our demographic and it focuses on giving kids every opportunity to succeed- sometimes at almost a comical level - they also push technical schools . All that being said their isn’t much for a truly smart kid - I have one that is really driven - she’s a junior in high school and one class away from being a junior in college as well - no AP classes offered because lack of demand . Now I’ve got another kid that fits in perfect so I’m not trying to be that guy - all that being said in our system just not a lot for a driven smart kid - the curriculum is not challenging but I would say we prob have 2 a year like that so I get it. Community loves the school

 

[UGDawwg]

Our last thread that devolved into a sea of educational debate because one of our own is thinking about leaving education was a fascinating read. Something @LouisianaDawg318 mentioned caught my eye and we began a private conversation that was extremely informative. So I want to start another educational thread to get some feedback on a topic close to my heart.

I have been in just about every type of school district at this point in my career. My current position is as an assistant principal at a rural school. I have taught in Clarke County and Walton County in Georgia as well as Knoxville and finally out in a rural county that is pretty unique. Education in a rural county is unlike anything I’ve seen before. While that laid back attitude can be comforting to be around at times, it permeates everything they do from academics to athletics. It is easily the most difficult job of my career and I had a few tough teaching gigs in Athens and Monroe.

There are 3 types of rural areas:

1. Fringe (1-5 miles from a larger city)
2. Distant (6-25 miles from a larger city)
3. Remote (26+ miles from a larger city)

Believe it or not, the remote rural districts fare better because they tend to keep their talent home. Distant rural areas seem to struggle because they are close enough for a 35 minute drive to the major city and that tends to drain the teaching talent. I gave a speech at the beginning of the year to my teachers that we needed to develop a Moneyball approach to teaching. We couldn’t do things the way bigger districts did them for various reasons - we needed a unique approach that was going to work for us.

@LouisianaDawg318 mentioned his district has moved to a 4 day school week in an attempt to bring teaching talent in. He feels it’s working and has been a success so far but the data will determine that fate ultimately.

With that said, if you are in a rural area and your school/district is rather successful, what is it that makes you thrive? These types of areas typically struggle to attract the top teaching talent as they are farther away and don’t pay as well. How does your district lure that talent in?

Any discussion is greatly appreciated and if you would prefer to send me a private message, that works just as well.

I've taught in somewhat rural and mostly suburban school systems in my career. Specifically (15yrs Gwinnett, 4 yrs Jackson) over my current 22 in the classroom. The differences in management, organization and overall accountability in GCPS vs. JCPS was INCREDIBLE... Almost mind boggling to be quite honest. Yes the larger system has micro management, over meeting, testing testing testing, etc. That said the overall lack of accountability, mix match of resources, good ole boy nepotism, parent politicking of school officials, etc. I experienced in JCSS astounded me. Then you compare the $$$... its really not even a comparison. What I noticed most was that folks who had taught OUTSIDE the rural system noticed all the oddities of what was going on. Meanwhile, the majority of the staff was "home grown" and seemed to find it all a lot more "normal" and acceptable. I don't pretend to think my singular experience speaks for all environments, but it was definitely eye opening.

 

[fprex]

I wonder if the biggest thing in more rural areas is that parent involvement, at least in the home, is probably better than busier areas.

Growing up in smaller towns you have more accountability because you are more likely to run in to someone you know and you do not want them to know little timmy is being bad or struggling with grades. But in gwinnett county I could go weeks without seeing people I know randomly at the store.

My wife taught in GCPS for 3 years and the parent involvement was a joke. Half her 5th graders would go home to take care of younger siblings and not get homework done or struggled to get things for projects because the parent always worked nights. Kindergarten was a little different but sometimes out of 25 kids she would only have like 7 conferences for parent teacher conferences.

I think the type of rural town matters here. It seems that research indicates remote rural (>25 miles away from city) schools fare much better.

I’m in a distant rural town (23 miles away from bigger city) and see something very different.

There’s also a dynamic I never described in my OP. We don’t teach the kids within a few miles of the school - those kids go to the city school. We pull the other kids from further out. (The hollers, basically.) Our kids can be on a bus for 45 minutes just to get there.

The biggest issue is the parent involvement is intensely less when it comes to education. There are a lot of grandparents/guardians/aunts raising our students.

 

[adhartman]

Believe it or not, the remote rural districts fare better because they tend to keep their talent home.

Good point that I've never really given consideration to. I grew up in a small town that fits your definition of 'remote' by a substantial margin. Graduating class of 185 with about a 60/40 black/white demographic split (there were three kids in my class that didn't fall into the two). Graduation rate was probably 80% and there were maybe 15-20 kids that went on to get four year degrees. One of the poorest counties in the south. My parents taught in said school system as well.

Sprinkled among some pretty bad teachers, our public school had a few world-class teachers. It was a relatively small group of kids in any given year but we would take math teams to Atlanta, Birmingham, etc. and win team and individual trophies against much larger, wealthier schools on a regular basis. And that wasn't just my class - it spanned over several years. My middle sister in particular was as accomplished academically as anyone that has ever walked those halls (National Merit Finalist among many other accolades). Point being is our top talent could compete with top talent from anywhere - the bench was just shorter.

To your question about why was it successful, I think your point that I quoted is one factor. Another is a few incredible teachers. And another is a stable home life. The stable home life piece wasn't prevalent throughout my community, regardless of race. However, when it was, it was obvious that those kids were better students, even if not 'smart'. To me, that's the magic bullet to so many issues in our country. I now live in and am raising my family in a suburb of Atlanta that is known for great public schools and it's quite obvious that a major part of that is family being a core component. Suburb life has it's on set of challenges but they're mostly 'first world' problems.

For the record, I am so grateful for where and how I was raised. I have perspective that I otherwise wouldn't and I try to raise my children to appreciate everything they have, even at three and five.

 

[waydownsouthdawg]

I think the type of rural town matters here. It seems that research indicates remote rural (>25 miles away from city) schools fare much better.

I’m in a distant rural town (23 miles away from bigger city) and see something very different.

There’s also a dynamic I never described in my OP. We don’t teach the kids within a few miles of the school - those kids go to the city school. We pull the other kids from further out. (The hollers, basically.) Our kids can be on a bus for 45 minutes just to get there.

The biggest issue is the parent involvement is intensely less when it comes to education. There are a lot of grandparents/guardians/aunts raising our students.

your middle school....easily the bottom of the rung....everyone wants to teach the "babies" or the mature ones...Middle school is the most difficult as they are handling their transition from adolescence to young adulthood. Teachers will come and go as this is difficult to manage inside a classroom. Creating a culture is one thing but the daily battle wears them down...eventually they will look for greener pastures...

 

[fprex]

your middle school....easily the bottom of the rung....everyone wants to teach the "babies" or the mature ones...Middle school is the most difficult as they are handling their transition from adolescence to young adulthood. Teachers will come and go as this is difficult to manage inside a classroom. Creating a culture is one thing but the daily battle wears them down...eventually they will look for greener pastures...

You couldn’t be more accurate, my friend. The middle school age is so difficult.

If we find good teachers, they move to higher paying districts (not far from us). If we were further out, that option would be eliminated. We experience “brain drain” from our top talent leaving the area.

We feel we have created a much better culture than before but it’s the generational apathy that wins out. When you have so many adults that are either unemployed or drawing disability, the students don’t have enough positive role models.

 

[Kennyg36]

He

I had a teacher that would hit us with a yard stick if we didn't pay attention. It worked. We paid attention. I still don't remember him teaching us anything.

He was my teacher also.

 

[Jetplane94]

I'm an eight year educator in a suburban area. Although I can't speak to rural counties personally , the ones I've been to that were successful (Lee for instance), have a strong CULTURE and LEADERSHIP. The trickle down effect is so real. Strong leaders will weed out the weak teachers and sustain the attention and loyalty of the stronger teachers/ones who eventually develop to be better (me for instance lol.) This leadership extends from the principals all the way to the superintendent.

Not everyone is going to love going to work everyday. But if you create an environment where they at least LIKE it most days, you will retain good teachers. Just my two cents.

 

[UGDawwg]

I'm an eight year educator in a suburban area. Although I can't speak to rural counties personally , the ones I've been to that were successful (Lee for instance), have a strong CULTURE and LEADERSHIP. The trickle down effect is so real. Strong leaders will weed out the weak teachers and sustain the attention and loyalty of the stronger teachers/ones who eventually develop to be better (me for instance lol.) This leadership extends from the principals all the way to the superintendent.

Not everyone is going to love going to work everyday. But if you create an environment where they at least LIKE it most days, you will retain good teachers. Just my two cents.

Agree 100% leadership is the KEY to it all. From the top (super & board) all the way down to your APs. I've worked in buildings where it was good/great (and thankful to be in one now)... and I've seen the other side of the wall. That side about drove me out of education all together. Leadership is the secret sauce of teacher retention.

 

[Kennyg36]

I’m by no means an expert or professional but my kids have been raised in a rural community , I have mixed opinions or feelings . Great people I’ve known all my life love my child being around people I’ve known my whole life - I think our school system is geared toward our demographic and it focuses on giving kids every opportunity to succeed- sometimes at almost a comical level - they also push technical schools . All that being said their isn’t much for a truly smart kid - I have one that is really driven - she’s a junior in high school and one class away from being a junior in college as well - no AP classes offered because lack of demand . Now I’ve got another kid that fits in perfect so I’m not trying to be that guy - all that being said in our system just not a lot for a driven smart kid - the curriculum is not challenging but I would say we prob have 2 a year like that so I get it. Community loves the school

Wish (a lot of) schools applied the attention towards education, as much as they do sports

 

[Halldawg]

I apologize for the long post but this was something that I gave a lot of thought to back in my work travel days. Laying down in a Fairfield inn by yourself after two martinis on a Tuesday allows one plenty of time to ponder things.

As a huge believer in the saying “problems rarely get better with age”…the 3rd grade checkpoint just makes a lot of sense to me. For most cases I just don’t think you can “fix” a HSer or probably even a MSer. So without any data to back it up, I really think that making sure a 3rd grader is ready for elementary school just checks out. I think you may have a chance at “fixing” primary school kids.

My moneyball idea is completely based upon anecdotal experiences so I assume it is loaded with flaws and pitfalls that I can see and many i don’t. This idea really formed when my daughter was in lower school as well as watching the development of my friend Tim.

My daughter was born in April and in her lower school friend group she had close friends with September, December, June and July birthdays. The two kids born in September were much more advanced both physically as well as mentally when the kids were in 1st and 2nd grade. They had been walking the earth 10-20% longer than their friends.

I met my friend Tim in first grade, in second we were in the top classes together and in 3rd we were in the “gifted” program. He was so much smarter than us in math but was never in our top reading groups. However a year or two later I learned he was held back in 1st grade and was actually a year older…but really only about seven months. He was only held back because he was a slow reader.

My thought process wonders…is their any value in the elimination of K, 1, 2 grades and checkpoints in exchange of a more skill based checkpoints? My friend Tim would have easily caught up by 3rd grade and my daughters July friends would have been avoided labeled as behind when in fact they were just behind their fall bday friends by 9 months.

However the true advantage I think with this is that grouping more kids together, they can broken up into more specialized groups since we aren’t restricted by grades. A good math mind but weak reader could get some extra reading group work and skip a math one since he/she has already passed the math check point. Smart kids could be bumped up with slightly older / more advanced kids so they have the chance to be challenged and constructively struggle.

I can definitely list some flaws with this idea but was just something I pondered years ago alone in a Fairfield inn.

I grew up in a rural community in SWGA that had a good school system then but has really gone down since. After I left, one of the HS English teachers became superintendent and decided to do away with ability grouping because it was racially motivated. All of the programs suffered. The top students left for school systems where they could learn and teachers left to follow them and to be in systems that thrived. This was early to mid 90's and the system has not recovered. A few charter schools cropped up and took the rest of the kids that could leave. I think ability grouping is great, but be aware of the idea that it may be labeled as racially motivated. The system is so small now they can not field a football team where as one of the guys younger than me we I was there went on to play in Athens.

 

[DSGB2004]

your middle school....easily the bottom of the rung....everyone wants to teach the "babies" or the mature ones...Middle school is the most difficult as they are handling their transition from adolescence to young adulthood. Teachers will come and go as this is difficult to manage inside a classroom. Creating a culture is one thing but the daily battle wears them down...eventually they will look for greener pastures...

Middle school is definitely the redheaded step child of education and it takes a different educator to manage it. I've been teaching middle school for 18 years and have had numerous offers to move up to high school but I personally just love the age. There is never a dull moment at our school but it always comes back to the relationships that you build with the students and the culture that the principal and school leaders create and model daily. Doing this daily is the chore, like you mentioned, so it's important to refresh that mindset daily. That's really the only way to keep those teachers from searching for greener pastures.

 

[NWGA_DAWG]

While I certainly agree with this premise, this isn’t something that can be fixed. Either your community cares or they do not. Mine is full of apathy. It’s an opponent I’ve never quite had to battle at this scale.

A lot of folks are giving solid suggestions and I appreciate it. However, most have been at the elementary (I’m in Middle) level.

Time to move?

 

[donalsonville_dawg]

I grew up in a rural community in SWGA that had a good school system then but has really gone down since. After I left, one of the HS English teachers became superintendent and decided to do away with ability grouping because it was racially motivated. All of the programs suffered. The top students left for school systems where they could learn and teachers left to follow them and to be in systems that thrived. This was early to mid 90's and the system has not recovered. A few charter schools cropped up and took the rest of the kids that could leave. I think ability grouping is great, but be aware of the idea that it may be labeled as racially motivated. The system is so small now they can not field a football team where as one of the guys younger than me we I was there went on to play in Athens.

You just mean they all ended up at SGA 😂

 

[Jetplane94]

Wish (a lot of) schools applied the attention towards education, as much as they do sports

HUGE issue that I have right now with our education system. There has been more movement with in-state NIL for high-schoolers than some of these schools giving a crap about student learning. You see a ton of rural athletic standouts who fizzle because their grades were neglected all four years of HS.

 

[Halldawg]

You just mean they all ended up at SGA 😂

And Early County, Miller County. But many did.

 

[GrazingBulldawg]

Our last thread that devolved into a sea of educational debate because one of our own is thinking about leaving education was a fascinating read. Something @LouisianaDawg318 mentioned caught my eye and we began a private conversation that was extremely informative. So I want to start another educational thread to get some feedback on a topic close to my heart.

I have been in just about every type of school district at this point in my career. My current position is as an assistant principal at a rural school. I have taught in Clarke County and Walton County in Georgia as well as Knoxville and finally out in a rural county that is pretty unique. Education in a rural county is unlike anything I’ve seen before. While that laid back attitude can be comforting to be around at times, it permeates everything they do from academics to athletics. It is easily the most difficult job of my career and I had a few tough teaching gigs in Athens and Monroe.

There are 3 types of rural areas:

1. Fringe (1-5 miles from a larger city)
2. Distant (6-25 miles from a larger city)
3. Remote (26+ miles from a larger city)

Believe it or not, the remote rural districts fare better because they tend to keep their talent home. Distant rural areas seem to struggle because they are close enough for a 35 minute drive to the major city and that tends to drain the teaching talent. I gave a speech at the beginning of the year to my teachers that we needed to develop a Moneyball approach to teaching. We couldn’t do things the way bigger districts did them for various reasons - we needed a unique approach that was going to work for us.

@LouisianaDawg318 mentioned his district has moved to a 4 day school week in an attempt to bring teaching talent in. He feels it’s working and has been a success so far but the data will determine that fate ultimately.

With that said, if you are in a rural area and your school/district is rather successful, what is it that makes you thrive? These types of areas typically struggle to attract the top teaching talent as they are farther away and don’t pay as well. How does your district lure that talent in?

Any discussion is greatly appreciated and if you would prefer to send me a private message, that works just as well.

I have similar experience. I have taught in Gwinnett, Habersham, Hall and now an extremely rural part of Mississippi. What you described about the laid-back attitude being comforting is very true and it does permeate into all aspects. We are in a county that is at the literal bottom of the state in graduate, testing, etc. The private school I'm at is opposite of what I was familiar with in the metro area, but we do strive to provide a significantly better education than what is available down the road. Tuition is low, most of the student population would be considered at or below the poverty line. We have almost a 100% placement in college or advanced trade school and averaged ACT scores of 25. The issue we have is that we are not nearly as well funded because of socio-economic factors as several other private schools within 30mi or so. The public school system ranks as one of the highest funded per student school districts in the state but is in the process of being taken over by the state. That puts at a disadvantage for teacher recruitment as we now rely on faculty that has already retired from public education. They can draw their state pension and collect a second check as a bonus. Rightfully so, they have paid their dues and are not looking to go above and beyond to push the students after a year or so. We operate on tuition, donations, and fundraisers mostly. We operate in the black, but it is thin. Our enrollment and the number of alumni sending their children back to our school continues to dwindle. The achievement in placement in schools and vocational careers has been opening doors for graduates to move off for much better paying jobs and to not return to an area with no industry. You are happy to see them succeed but ultimately know that's one less family to attend in the future.

 

[K_Walt32]

I think the type of rural town matters here. It seems that research indicates remote rural (>25 miles away from city) schools fare much better.

I’m in a distant rural town (23 miles away from bigger city) and see something very different.

There’s also a dynamic I never described in my OP. We don’t teach the kids within a few miles of the school - those kids go to the city school. We pull the other kids from further out. (The hollers, basically.) Our kids can be on a bus for 45 minutes just to get there.

The biggest issue is the parent involvement is intensely less when it comes to education. There are a lot of grandparents/guardians/aunts raising our students.

I think the core of most issues in schools where students are concerned is lack of parent involvement. Obviously this is a general statement and is not completely applicable, but the point still stands.

I could go on a rant about that, but it might get a little too political and is very opinionated for someone who isn't in education.

 

[GrazingBulldawg]

I've taught in somewhat rural and mostly suburban school systems in my career. Specifically (15yrs Gwinnett, 4 yrs Jackson) over my current 22 in the classroom. The differences in management, organization and overall accountability in GCPS vs. JCPS was INCREDIBLE... Almost mind boggling to be quite honest. Yes the larger system has micro management, over meeting, testing testing testing, etc. That said the overall lack of accountability, mix match of resources, good ole boy nepotism, parent politicking of school officials, etc. I experienced in JCSS astounded me. Then you compare the $$$... its really not even a comparison. What I noticed most was that folks who had taught OUTSIDE the rural system noticed all the oddities of what was going on. Meanwhile, the majority of the staff was "home grown" and seemed to find it all a lot more "normal" and acceptable. I don't pretend to think my singular experience speaks for all environments, but it was definitely eye opening.

You didnt happen to teach history at a school with blue in its colors did you?

 

[rectomo]

I have enjoyed reading all the comments on here and appreciate fprex for starting the thread.

Much like healthcare, I am comfortable looking at high performing systems globally and examine what they do that leads to successful outcomes. All the Scandinavian countries, Singapore, Japan, Taiwan, Canada, Germany , and Switzerland are worth studying. Generally all seem to have high levels of parental involvement, but they also work from a nationally financed and standardized model. All these countries, but particularly the Scandinavian ones, are quick to identify and react to poor performing school systems. They throw resources at them to get them up to par, including sending in top teaching talent.

Demographic, cultural, societal, and political factors drive the education discussion, just as they do everything else.

I do want all you who work in education to know that I recognize your job as incredibly important and I appreciate all you do in a difficult and demanding profession.