Tariffs

[HarryDawg'95]

“You see, at first, when someone says, ``Let's impose tariffs on foreign imports,'' it looks like they're doing the patriotic thing by protecting American products and jobs. And sometimes for a short while it works -- but only for a short time. What eventually occurs is: First, homegrown industries start relying on government protection in the form of high tariffs. They stop competing and stop making the innovative management and technological changes they need to succeed in world markets. And then, while all this is going on, something even worse occurs. High tariffs inevitably lead to retaliation by foreign countries and the triggering of fierce trade wars. The result is more and more tariffs, higher and higher trade barriers, and less and less competition. So, soon, because of the prices made artificially high by tariffs that subsidize inefficiency and poor management, people stop buying. Then the worst happens: Markets shrink and collapse; businesses and industries shut down; and millions of people lose their jobs.

The memory of all this occurring back in the thirties made me determined when I came to Washington to spare the American people the protectionist legislation that destroys prosperity. Now, it hasn't always been easy. There are those in this Congress, just as there were back in the thirties, who want to go for the quick political advantage, who will risk America's prosperity for the sake of a short-term appeal to some special interest group.”

Ronald Reagan, 1982

 

[DawgWCK]

Tariffs / additional taxes by Germany for a Cadillac made in US and shipped to Germany - somewhere in the 25% range (stated to be 10% by Germany but US Federal Officials say it is closer to 25% once it goes thru the duty taxes and related.

Tariffs / additional taxes on a BMW made in Germany and shipped to US (less than 5%).

I am quoting from a US trade official but did an internet search and it appears correct.

Both are EXCELLENT cars, great technology and innovation by both brands. why can't US automobile producers get similar playing fields? Seems like a fair question and an apple-to-apple comparison to me.

 

[Dirty Hairy Dawg]

Tariffs / additional taxes by Germany for a Cadillac made in US and shipped to Germany - somewhere in the 25% range (stated to be 10% by Germany but US Federal Officials say it is closer to 25% once it goes thru the duty taxes and related.

Tariffs / additional taxes on a BMW made in Germany and shipped to US (less than 5%).

I am quoting from a US trade official but did an internet search and it appears correct.

Both are EXCELLENT cars, great technology and innovation by both brands. why can't US automobile producers get similar playing fields? Seems like a fair question and an apple-to-apple comparison to me.

Yep the libs are once again boxed in by TDS and are defending free trade for thee but not for me. Trump is championing free but reciprocal trade and that makes sense to most. Throw a 100% plus tariff on our dairy, we'll throw a tariff on your aluminum.

I have lost quite a bit of business due to EU protectionism and have a project into Canada on hold right now waiting for a resolution to the issue. I have skin in the game and I fully support leveling the field. We can still be the world's daddy but it's time we stopped being the world's nanny.

 

[The Original SLC Dawg]

We are the economy that drives the whole world. And speaking of German cars, Trump should have kept the 25% tariff on all European cars.

 

[55dawg]

“You see, at first, when someone says, ``Let's impose tariffs on foreign imports,'' it looks like they're doing the patriotic thing by protecting American products and jobs. And sometimes for a short while it works -- but only for a short time. What eventually occurs is: First, homegrown industries start relying on government protection in the form of high tariffs. They stop competing and stop making the innovative management and technological changes they need to succeed in world markets. And then, while all this is going on, something even worse occurs. High tariffs inevitably lead to retaliation by foreign countries and the triggering of fierce trade wars. The result is more and more tariffs, higher and higher trade barriers, and less and less competition. So, soon, because of the prices made artificially high by tariffs that subsidize inefficiency and poor management, people stop buying. Then the worst happens: Markets shrink and collapse; businesses and industries shut down; and millions of people lose their jobs.

The memory of all this occurring back in the thirties made me determined when I came to Washington to spare the American people the protectionist legislation that destroys prosperity. Now, it hasn't always been easy. There are those in this Congress, just as there were back in the thirties, who want to go for the quick political advantage, who will risk America's prosperity for the sake of a short-term appeal to some special interest group.”

Ronald Reagan, 1982

I can acknowledge and understand the legitimate concerns. But what is the solution to our dependence on foreign countries and the huge loss of manufacturing/manufacturing jobs ? The easy path is maintaining status quo. But I have no doubt that the long term impact is catastrophic if massive changes aren’t made. The way our political systen works (turnover every 4 years), I’m not sure how any president ever gets it done without swift aggressive actions. China operates under 100 year plans. We operate based on day to day results.

 

[TivoliDawg]

Tariffs / additional taxes by Germany for a Cadillac made in US and shipped to Germany - somewhere in the 25% range (stated to be 10% by Germany but US Federal Officials say it is closer to 25% once it goes thru the duty taxes and related.

Tariffs / additional taxes on a BMW made in Germany and shipped to US (less than 5%).

I am quoting from a US trade official but did an internet search and it appears correct.

Both are EXCELLENT cars, great technology and innovation by both brands. why can't US automobile producers get similar playing fields? Seems like a fair question and an apple-to-apple comparison to me.

Would you rather have our economy or theirs? The country getting this right is obvious.

 

[KirbyIsMyDog]

I can acknowledge and understand the legitimate concerns. But what is the solution to our dependence on foreign countries and the huge loss of manufacturing/manufacturing jobs ? The easy path is maintaining status quo. But I have no doubt that the long term impact is catastrophic if massive changes aren’t made. The way our political systen works (turnover every 4 years), I’m not sure how any president ever gets it done without swift aggressive actions. China operates under 100 year plans. We operate based on day to day results.

Why do we need to bring back jobs like assembling a toaster or putting an iPhone in a box?

Would you rather have the iPhone design jobs or the iPhone assembly jobs here? One makes a ton of money and provides innovation and one is putting a phone in a box.

 

[TivoliDawg]

We are the economy that drives the whole world. And speaking of German cars, Trump should have kept the 25% tariff on all European cars.

You are not wrong, kind of.

25% of global trade flows through our economy, 20% of global trade flows through China’s economy.

We have the number one GDP in the world, and they have the number two GDP in the world.

So yes, we are bigger, but we are not a majority player, and they are a very legitimate threat to our global dominance.

 

[TivoliDawg]

Why do we need to bring back jobs like assembling a toaster or putting an iPhone in a box?

Would you rather have the iPhone design jobs or the iPhone assembly jobs here? One makes a ton of money and provides innovation and one is putting a phone in a box.

There is no black-and-white answer to these things.

The obvious answer to your hypothetical question is this: we need both. White-collar jobs that require PhD‘s, pay very well, but there are very few of them.

Most people are not qualified to do that work. Yet anyone is qualified to work in a factory. Having gainfully employed citizens is a literal goal of the federal reserve.

I understand your point but economics is not black-and-white.

 

[-lowcountrydawg]

Why do we need to bring back jobs like assembling a toaster or putting an iPhone in a box?

Would you rather have the iPhone design jobs or the iPhone assembly jobs here? One makes a ton of money and provides innovation and one is putting a phone in a box.

I think in the case of apple....the idea is that much of iphone assembly right now happens in China with labor costs we could never compete with (or want)......we onshore those facilities, creating a ton of construction jobs, etc......but to your point, use robots (engineering jobs) to assemble the phone. Higher productivity helps growth and brings down inflation.

 

[Eastmandawg]

There is no black-and-white answer to these things.

The obvious answer to your hypothetical question is this: we need both. White-collar jobs that require PhD‘s, pay very well, but there are very few of them.

Most people are not qualified to do that work. Yet anyone is qualified to work in a factory. Having gainfully employed citizens is a literal goal of the federal reserve.

I understand your point but economics is not black-and-white.

Exactly - no broad brush. IE, you can’t compare IPhones to maybe a Nissan assembly plant in Smyrna TN - nor their corporate office that is in Franklin, TN.

They certainly employ a bunch of important people.

 

[The Original SLC Dawg]

Why do we need to bring back jobs like assembling a toaster or putting an iPhone in a box?

Would you rather have the iPhone design jobs or the iPhone assembly jobs here? One makes a ton of money and provides innovation and one is putting a phone in a box.

Because there are people with different abilities, skills, and ambition. As soon as we all start working for Apple, AI or automation will make us all obsolete

 

[Dirty Hairy Dawg]

Why do we need to bring back jobs like assembling a toaster or putting an iPhone in a box?

Would you rather have the iPhone design jobs or the iPhone assembly jobs here? One makes a ton of money and provides innovation and one is putting a phone in a box.

Because a plant that employs low skilled workers also employees a bevy of others with various degrees of skills and salary demands. Large employers also provide opportunities for small businesses that support the plants and service employees to be created. You have everything from food trucks to construction workers to engineering firms that are supported by having large scale manufacturing plants in the area.

Additionally, every dollar a low level employee earns is one dollar the tax payers don't have to provide in supporting people that have little hope of advancement. So, that 19 yr old kid stuffing toasters in a box for $12.00 per hr is learning work skills and seeing his 25 yr old brother earning twice his salary because he went from stuffing toasters in a box to a tool and die worker. It's simplistic but true, the more people we have working, the better...for everyone.

 

[KirbyIsMyDog]

Because there are people with different abilities, skills, and ambition. As soon as we all start working for Apple, AI or automation will make us all obsolete

So we should wreck the economy to bring back jobs for toaster assembly because these jobs are so much more valuable than restaurant and retail jobs?

 

[Eastmandawg]

So we should wreck the economy to bring back jobs for toaster assembly because these jobs are so much more valuable than restaurant and retail jobs?

Dirty Hairy Dawg broke it down for you above. It shouldn’t be that hard for anyone to follow/understand.

 

[KirbyIsMyDog]

Because a plant that employs low skilled workers also employees a bevy of others with various degrees of skills and salary demands. Large employers also provide opportunities for small businesses that support the plants and service employees to be created. You have everything from food trucks to construction workers to engineering firms that are supported by having large scale manufacturing plants in the area.

Additionally, every dollar a low level employee earns is one dollar the tax payers don't have to provide in supporting people that have little hope of advancement. So, that 19 yr old kid stuffing toasters in a box for $12.00 per hr is learning work skills and seeing his 25 yr old brother earning twice his salary because he went from stuffing toasters in a box to a tool and die worker. It's simplistic but true, the more people we have working, the better...for everyone.

The same could be said for a Home Depot or an Applebees and no one is saying we don’t have enough of those. Trump has already vaporized $4.5T in wealth from the stock market and there isn’t one more toaster assembler job available in this country and nor will there be in a decade after we vaporized more trillions of dollars. The ends don’t justify the means.

 

[Eastmandawg]

The same could be said for a Home Depot or an Applebees and no one is saying we don’t have enough of those. Trump has already vaporized $4.5T in wealth from the stock market and there isn’t one more toaster assembler job available in this country and nor will there be in a decade after we vaporized more trillions of dollars. The ends don’t justify the means.

Nothing has vaporized, it’s a paperwork loss only.

 

[Dirty Hairy Dawg]

So we should wreck the economy to bring back jobs for toaster assembly because these jobs are so much more valuable than restaurant and retail jobs?

Wtf are you talking about. The economy gets wrecked by subsidizing the unlevel playing field for our competitors and sometimes our enemies. Take China for example, we allow them to use if not slave labor a captive labor market that has little choice but to take what they are paid and give them open access to our market while they protect their economy by restricting our access to their market. We are literally financing our economy to the tune of 37 trillion in debt and God only knows how much in unfunded mandates. The economy you love is an illusion.

We don't bring back a toaster factory because it's better or worse than slinging hash or selling socks, we bring them back to play a role in a dynamic economy. The folks slinging hash and selling socks need customers and more jobs that create more opportunity is the foundation of a sound economy.

 

[Eastmandawg]

Wtf are you talking about. The economy gets wrecked by subsidizing the unlevel playing field for our competitors and sometimes our enemies. Take China for example, we allow them to use if not slave labor a captive labor market that has little choice but to take what they are paid and give them open access to our market while they protect their economy by restricting our access to their market. We are literally financing our economy to the tune of 37 trillion in debt and God only knows how much in unfunded mandates. The economy you love is an illusion.

We don't bring back a toaster factory because it's better or worse than slinging hash or selling socks, we bring them back to play a role in a dynamic economy. The folks slinging hash and selling socks need customers and more jobs that create more opportunity is the foundation of a sound economy.

“WTF are you talking about”?? - it’s toasters U big silly.

 

[KirbyIsMyDog]

Wtf are you talking about. The economy gets wrecked by subsidizing the unlevel playing field for our competitors and sometimes our enemies. Take China for example, we allow them to use if not slave labor a captive labor market that has little choice but to take what they are paid and give them open access to our market while they protect their economy by restricting our access to their market. We are literally financing our economy to the tune of 37 trillion in debt and God only knows how much in unfunded mandates. The economy you love is an illusion.

We don't bring back a toaster factory because it's better or worse than slinging hash or selling socks, we bring them back to play a role in a dynamic economy. The folks slinging hash and selling socks need customers and more jobs that create more opportunity is the foundation of a sound economy.

How exactly does the economy get wrecked? Because we buy products other countries can make cheaper than we can while we focus on high-value manufacturing, services and innovation? That's not a recipe to wreck an economy, that's just specialization and trade and why we are the richest country with the most dynamic economy that has ever existed.

If you don't like it, then make it cheaper to manufacture here, not more expensive for Americans to buy foreign products. You're still not incentivizing anyone to actually build a factory. Take steel and aluminum tariffs, for example. We manufacture a boatload of cars here. Trump just made it more expensive to do so as steel and aluminum are the main inputs into an automobile. That's not going to help boost auto manufacturing, which is an amazing domestic jobs producer. It's going to lead to job layoffs and less factories because every input is more expensive.

 

[55dawg]

Why do we need to bring back jobs like assembling a toaster or putting an iPhone in a box?

Would you rather have the iPhone design jobs or the iPhone assembly jobs here? One makes a ton of money and provides innovation and one is putting a phone in a box.

Think the Covid experiment revealed this answer. We need both. For both national security and economic reasons. We are in a very vulnerable position due to the loss of manufacturing.

 

[Eastmandawg]

Think the Covid experiment revealed this answer. We need both. For both national security and economic reasons. We are in a very vulnerable position due to the loss of manufacturing.

Prescription drugs (mfg) is also a major concern.

 

[MaitlandFloridaDawg]

“You see, at first, when someone says, ``Let's impose tariffs on foreign imports,'' it looks like they're doing the patriotic thing by protecting American products and jobs. And sometimes for a short while it works -- but only for a short time. What eventually occurs is: First, homegrown industries start relying on government protection in the form of high tariffs. They stop competing and stop making the innovative management and technological changes they need to succeed in world markets. And then, while all this is going on, something even worse occurs. High tariffs inevitably lead to retaliation by foreign countries and the triggering of fierce trade wars. The result is more and more tariffs, higher and higher trade barriers, and less and less competition. So, soon, because of the prices made artificially high by tariffs that subsidize inefficiency and poor management, people stop buying. Then the worst happens: Markets shrink and collapse; businesses and industries shut down; and millions of people lose their jobs.

The memory of all this occurring back in the thirties made me determined when I came to Washington to spare the American people the protectionist legislation that destroys prosperity. Now, it hasn't always been easy. There are those in this Congress, just as there were back in the thirties, who want to go for the quick political advantage, who will risk America's prosperity for the sake of a short-term appeal to some special interest group.”

Ronald Reagan, 1982

Agree with Reagan on this. Additionally I would add that tariffs will be a net negative for American manufacturers for years. Very few manufacturers use 100% American sourced materials. Ford may make a car in Detroit, but some (probably most) of the materials are foreign sourced. You can’t unwind this quickly. Tariffs also hurt American manufacturers as trade wars shrink the world marketplace.

 

[WilhayvenDawg]

Why do we need to bring back jobs like assembling a toaster or putting an iPhone in a box?

Would you rather have the iPhone design jobs or the iPhone assembly jobs here? One makes a ton of money and provides innovation and one is putting a phone in a box.

The answer to this question is both, especially if you look at the state of our Education System. There will always be the need for manual labor jobs and doing this will create higher paying jobs than Fast Food and Retail. This is the long game, that may hurt a little in the short term, but will be forgotten when all is said and done. Look at the new High Tech Investments being made in the US by companies like Apple($500 Billion) SoftBank($100+ Billion) and TSMC(additional $100+ Billion to build 5 additional plants in Arizona on top of the 3 they already have or had committed to). SK Hynix is also planning a US$4 billion high-bandwidth memory fabrication plant and R&D center in Indiana. There will be more and more of this coming, which does two things, 1) Creates jobs and 2) insulates from trouble if China causes trouble in the East(committed to taking over Taiwan by 2027). Look, the US has the biggest playground that everyone wants to play in free of charge, but when the US tries to play in their playground, it costs our Companies 10%-350% and up, which means there is no way to compete. Set the tariff levels at the same amount and may the best man win. We already know the answer, that is why all of these companies are upping their investment in the USA.

 

[callistyler]

Would you rather have our economy or theirs? The country getting this right is obvious.

The effect from tariffs will be felt on down the road. You can count on it. A tariff is just another tax and it will be felt more by the middle class and the poor than any of the rich.

 

[MaitlandFloridaDawg]

The effect from tariffs will be felt on down the road. You can count on it. A tariff is just another tax and it will be felt more by the middle class and the poor than any of the rich.

It will be felt by all, from businesses, rich, middle class, and poor. Purchasing for construction projects is a big part of my job and it is impacting projects now. Tariffs are already causing projects to go on hold and causing some investors to pull out of deals.

 

[washdog]

“You see, at first, when someone says, ``Let's impose tariffs on foreign imports,'' it looks like they're doing the patriotic thing by protecting American products and jobs. And sometimes for a short while it works -- but only for a short time. What eventually occurs is: First, homegrown industries start relying on government protection in the form of high tariffs. They stop competing and stop making the innovative management and technological changes they need to succeed in world markets. And then, while all this is going on, something even worse occurs. High tariffs inevitably lead to retaliation by foreign countries and the triggering of fierce trade wars. The result is more and more tariffs, higher and higher trade barriers, and less and less competition. So, soon, because of the prices made artificially high by tariffs that subsidize inefficiency and poor management, people stop buying. Then the worst happens: Markets shrink and collapse; businesses and industries shut down; and millions of people lose their jobs.

The memory of all this occurring back in the thirties made me determined when I came to Washington to spare the American people the protectionist legislation that destroys prosperity. Now, it hasn't always been easy. There are those in this Congress, just as there were back in the thirties, who want to go for the quick political advantage, who will risk America's prosperity for the sake of a short-term appeal to some special interest group.”

Ronald Reagan, 1982

free b trade is great but if they traiff us we traiff them the same tell what the hell wrong with that. The incentive to make it here should be less regulation and red tape and a low Corporate income tax. we should have never made it easy for coropration to leave the US and then sell their stuff back to here. low wages no polutions regs in otherc countries. is why they could sell it cheaper,

 

[MaitlandFloridaDawg]

free b trade is great but if they traiff us we traiff them the same tell what the hell wrong with that. The incentive to make it here should be less regulation and red tape and a low Corporate income tax. we should have never made it easy for coropration to leave the US and then sell their stuff back to here. low wages no polutions regs in otherc countries. is why they could sell it cheaper,

I would argue that the country issuing the tariff is punished more than the country receiving the tariff. We have a world wide market place. I know “globalism” is a dirty word in conservative circles (I consider myself a conservative and I voted for Trump), but why would anyone want to reduce the size of the marketplace? That is the most devastating part of tariffs, they make the market smaller.