This is an outstanding explanation of the historical context of the war and why ensuring that Putin does not win is in our best interests.
Why supporting Ukraine matters
- Thread starter willdup
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Rather have Trump stop it day 1 in office, vote Trump.....
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parts of NYC look like a third world country yet you want to poke around 6,000 miles away and waste billions in a hopeless war. Why?
For the life of me, can’t see why “America first” doesn’t apply here.
Maybe somebody that is smarter than me can explain why.
I think most anyone committed to freedom wants Putin to lose. The question is are we willing to pay the price and take the actions that would be required to ensure Putin loses a border war that he sees as a national security priority? Iows, Russia isn't going to be defeated without Ukraine and her allies engaging in offensive strikes on a massive level.
Another factor is there are regions that Putin wants where many of the residents are sympathetic to Russia somewhat like S. Vietnam so politics/diplomacy is more likely the correct path rather than hoping for total victory. Of course, we would all love to see Putin disgraced and a new leader helicoptered in with an adoring crowd throwing rose petals at his feet but that appears to be closer to a fantasy than a real possibility.
Another factor is there are regions that Putin wants where many of the residents are sympathetic to Russia somewhat like S. Vietnam so politics/diplomacy is more likely the correct path rather than hoping for total victory. Of course, we would all love to see Putin disgraced and a new leader helicoptered in with an adoring crowd throwing rose petals at his feet but that appears to be closer to a fantasy than a real possibility.
Isolationism is the ideal and would be wonderful...in a perfect world. Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world. The world stage is filled with bad actors and if the USA abdicates its leadership role, those actors will fill the void. America first means America must lead.
so we should support the ukraine because
other Euro countries lost imperial wars and created the “europe we have today”. Does anyone think the Russians want to be like western europe?
If the desire is to make them like the EU then it sounds like an EU issue not a US issue.
No one is worried about what happens inside Russia after they lose an imperial war.
Losing imperialist wars brings about change, so does winning them. If the premise is that Russian will follow suit aka Nazi Germany by winning Ukraine then the Europeans better get busy. The Euros have done everything possible to attempt to distance themselves from the USA in the past 40 years, I say they should continue to keep their distance and solve their own issues.
other Euro countries lost imperial wars and created the “europe we have today”. Does anyone think the Russians want to be like western europe?
If the desire is to make them like the EU then it sounds like an EU issue not a US issue.
No one is worried about what happens inside Russia after they lose an imperial war.
Losing imperialist wars brings about change, so does winning them. If the premise is that Russian will follow suit aka Nazi Germany by winning Ukraine then the Europeans better get busy. The Euros have done everything possible to attempt to distance themselves from the USA in the past 40 years, I say they should continue to keep their distance and solve their own issues.
I’m fine helping to support Ukraine some, what I don’t understand is why Democrats won’t do the same for Israel who’s a much better ally to US than Ukraine has ever been. Make it make sense…
But is it possible for Ukraine to win without truly intervening in a way that puts the US in danger? Dude has more nukes than anyone, and if backed into a corner, that's not a place I personally want to put my family.
Because there are a shitload of democrats who are closet anti-semites. And a lot of them who are explicitly pro-Palestine. You are absolutely correct though.
He in fact says exactly this later in the video - pointing out the fallacy of Westerners actively trying to get Russia to become more like the European powers.
It doesn't work like that.
On the other hand, there's been a tension within Russia re: "joining the west" ever since Peter the Great's attempts to modernize the nation. He died in 1725.
I'm sorry, but WTF are either of you talking about? There was an aid package for both Israel and Ukraine ready to go in October of last year that was blocked by MAGA republicans who didn't support the aid to Ukraine. The bill that finally passed in April when Speaker Johnson and others finally got on board and it was not substantively different from the original bill from October.
That is 100% on the MAGA wing of the GOP.
Also, here is a list of everything else the Biden administration did to support Israel. AI warning:
In the last 12 months, the United States has significantly increased its military support for Israel, particularly in response to the Israel-Hamas war that began on October 7, 2023. Here are the key aspects of this support:
- Immediate Response: Hours after the Hamas attack on October 7, the US began deploying warships and military aircraft to the region, ready to provide Israel with whatever it needed.
- Naval Deployments: The US sent multiple naval assets, including:
- Carrier Strike Group 12, led by the USS Gerald R. Ford
- A second aircraft carrier to the eastern Mediterranean
- Three additional naval warships
- Air Force Support: The US Air Force increased its presence in the region by:
- Sending additional F-16, A-10, and F-15E squadrons to the Persian Gulf
- Deploying over 100 attack planes when combined with carrier-based F/A-18 jets
- Special Operations: A small team of US Special Operations personnel was sent to Israel to assist with intelligence gathering and potential hostage rescue operations.
- Military Aid Package: In April 2024, the US enacted legislation providing at least $12.5 billion in military aid to Israel, which includes:
- $3.8 billion from a bill in March 2024 (in line with the current Memorandum of Understanding)
- $8.7 billion from a supplemental appropriations act in April 2024
- Ongoing Support: The US continues to provide Israel with advanced military equipment, including:
- F-35 Joint Strike Fighters
- Iron Dome interceptor missiles
- Support for the "David's Sling" missile defense system
- Intelligence Cooperation: The US has been sharing intelligence and cooperating with Israeli military planning.
- Diplomatic Support: The US has consistently supported Israel's right to self-defense in international forums, though it has also expressed concerns about civilian casualties in Gaza.
With all due respect to the AI response and the catch-all border/israel/ukraine bill, you know damn well that the Palestine / Israel issue is a dividing issue on the left. Not the right. For all the rhetoric of "ironclad" support, the polls and the campus demonstration were taking their toll, and the administration clearly tacked left away from Israel.
I would best describe it as technical policy support, while holding their noses politically and with rhetoric. Meanwhile, the Ukraine support from the left comes both with technical policy ($$$$) and universal enthusiastic rhetoric. I think that is the point that krow is making.
Biden also called for regime change in Israel during the height of the hostilities.
Because the Hamas wing of the Dem Party controls them and they hate Jews.
It’s not MAGA people that are burining American flags in the capital and waving Palestinian flags. Kamala Harris didn’t even attend when Israel’s PM came the other day and gave his speech. That’s what I’m referring to, again I’m fine supporting both efforts against two nations in Iran and Russia that want to see us all dead but I don’t understand why the young people especially are so Anti-Semetic against Israel. There are left leaning entities that are pushing against Josh Shapiro to be Kamala’s VP simply because he is Jewish and made pro Israel comments. That’s what I’m not understanding.
Meanwhile , back here in reality, you literally had Tlaib hold up a sign insulting Netahyahu last week in DC, completely embarrassing herself and our Government. You have Palestinian Jew Hating protests tearing down US flags and putting up Palestinian flags in the middle of Washington DC and NOT ONE ARREST. They spray painted graffiti all over statues as well, and the Democratic run government literally does nothing. Are these MAGA people? Not one of them are MAGA.
Edit- I got off point - I think the problem with supporting Ukraine is that its impossible to defeat Russia without US boots on the ground, and there is zero appetite for that , so Ukraine has been destroyed and nothing will change.
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They have handcuffed the IDF with unreasonable requests.
They have funded Hamas at the same time.
So all that AI list is meaning less. The only thing Biden has done is limit Israel while pushing for a regime change. He has limited what they could do so that the Israeli people might push Netanyahu out. That is what matters most to this administration along with keeping the squad somewhat appeased.
In the House, 37 out of 250 Dems voted against the aid bill to Israel. 21 republicans also voted against it.
In the Senate, 15 of the 18 who voted against the aid package were Republicans.
The messaging from the Biden administration, while critical of Netanyahu (who only has about 27% support in Israel), has been very consistent regarding support for Israel overall.
Harris strongly denounced the pro-Hammas protestors, and the administration clearly gave the green light for the successful Beirut/Tehran operations this week.
No AI needed.
Rhetoric also matters. Yes Biden has continued to give weapons etc to Israel. But the WH house be constantly calling out Israel and giving Israel PUBLIC ultimatums and warnings. Kamala just did it too after meeting w Bibi last week. "We support Israel's right to defend itself, but we don't support Israel's right to defend itself" has been the message. The first time Biden spoke he was giving warning on what Israel can and cannot do to defend itself after 10/7.
Kamala just told the violent antisemitic rioters last week "I hear you." She added to the false narrative that Israel is responsible for the death of innocent people and children in Gaza.
That rhetoric fuels the violence and antisemitism in this country. It is also counterproductive to real negotiations to help bring home the hostages, which includes 8 American hostages.
Why no arrests ?
Will, you know if these were Conservatives tearing down flags and destroying property , Biden would call in the National Guard.
I think what bothers a lot of people is the mixed messaging from Biden/Harris.
They agreed because we are nearing the election. They have limited their options for quite sometime. Biden has done nothing to get the American citizens back that are being held as hostages.
ok. Painfully obvious which side universally supports Israel and which side is divided and holding their nose, notwithstanding the policy support. But whatever.
Y'all are moving the goalposts here. As a reminder, this is the initial post I responded to.
We are providing both very significant material and diplomatic support to Israel, including almost certainly approving the two very notable and provocative assassinations of the last twenty-four hours. If you now want to acknowledge this support but argue that it isn't enough, that's an entirely different and more complex discussion and one that I don't have time to engage in right now, given in previous Chat discussions I was told that anything other than total and unqualified support for everything Netanyahu was doing made me antisemitic, which I am most certainly not.
This war exists because Obama and Biden decided to replace the Elected President with someone they felt was more on their side, 2ndly we made a pact to not move NATO into Ukraine. We don't like Russia in Cuba how would we feel if they were in Mexico or Canada. US involvement in Ukraine
It's not the majority of the Democrats neither that are burning flags. If fact, VP Harris sent out a very strong rebuttal to those actions. She condoned it very strongly.
People view the killing of unarmed citizens and women and kids as an issue. Don't know how to solve it, but it's an issue.
As far as the VP not attending the speech last week. I am sure some if it was political, but some of it was simply due to VP Harris needing and wanting the grassroots level organization that members of the Divine 9 (historically black greeks) are willing to do for her. Not attending the Zeta Phi Beta's event would have sent the wrong message, as well to the very ones she needs the help from.
VP Harris and President Biden did meet with the Prime Minister the very next day.
We are giving some support to Israel. We have been also giving support to Hamas.
We are limiting and have been limiting their ability to take out the enemy. They have been restricted in so many ways it is utterly ridiculous that we would treat an ally this way.
The reason this has been done is purely political and this adminsitration is appeasing their own ally Hamas/the squad.
The only reason we have seen anything change is because we nearing the election and polling says they need to adjust to find favor with independent and undecided voters.
The US has withheld shipments of 2000 pound bombs due to concerns about their use in highly populated Gaza. 500 pound bombs continue to be delivered.
How else have we restricted their efforts?
And how exactly has the US supported Hamas?
To your last question, by policy that has allowed cash to flow to Iran, and the weakness of leadership that emboldened them. They do not fear the Biden admin. They know exactly how to play them. Of course we would never explicitly support Hamas, but we have made Israel's job harder by weakening their negotiating leverage - making statements that Hamas then uses to further propaganda, etc.
it isn't just netanyahu. There are a lot of jews, many in the US, that feel abandoned by the Biden admin. It is possible to generally support them from a money, policy, and selling them weapons standpoint. But still undercut them politically. That is what has clearly happened. The Biden that gave a great speech the day after Oct 7 did a complete 180 once all the protests began. Most manipulatable (if that's a word) admin in history.
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You seem to be suggesting that any evolution of Biden admin policy is due to US protestors and as such is unrelated to the way that Netanyahu has chosen to prosecute the war and the tens of thousands of civilian casualties that have resulted.
You can disagree with policy, but you are being flippant about what factors have influenced the policy.
To be clear, the thousands of civilian deaths are a direct result of the terrorists and their policies to use human shields. Not Israel. I guess you can say Israel should do nothing and let the terrorists continue to destroy and murder innocent Israeli's, but other than that, Israeli is only going after terrorist targets. They just happen to hide behind civilians.
Fair point I guess, but how the hell are you supposed to fight terrorists who intentionally hide under hospitals and civilian areas? The United States track record in this area is actually worse in terms of data in fighting enemies with collateral damage. You honestly think that if the polling told them otherwise, they wouldn't be straddling the Israel / Palestine issue?
Ok- lets move to the other view (side) and look at it from this angle. President Biden is the President to ALL. This includes our Palestinian-American citizens who see Israel as using a "heavy hand" in its response to HAMAS (Fucc Hamas btw) and it's goal to indicate the terrorist organization.
Many innocent citizens. Women. Children. All have been killed and for the most part, the US has stood by Israel and it's right to defend itself.
I think the protests have started mainly due to no end game for the citizens that are suffering and the international world is loosing patience for an endless war that has taken many innocent lives.
I think the President is trying to balance the United States unwavering support of Isreal with the need to reduce the senseless killings and its causing problems on both sides.
I am not sure how to respond. Not sure if you are serious or not.
They have severely limited Israel response by limiting the scope and timing of operations.
Never before has these types of requests ever been made when a country is responding to an attack and trying to recover hostages and bodies of the deceased. We have tried to encourage a diplomatic solution to no avail. The Hamas terrorists do not care for a diplomatic solution and they have stated their position openly and often. Yet this administration caters to both sides and does nothing to help end the conflict. This has been a purely political response catering to people within the Democratic Party and pandering for support and votes. They have played both sides of the aisle when it benefited them.
The are about 9 million Israelis in Israel. There are over 500 million Muslims in nearby surrounding countries. Yes Israel and the US are the primary providers of aid to the Palestinian people. Why is that?
The vast majority of that aid is taken by the Palestinian authority and Hamas and never reaches the people in need.
We have given roughly a billion dollars to aid the Palestinians which has not gone to the people in need. You can go back and look at many articles and videos showing where the aid goes.
Yeah, he's also the POTUS of rapist, murderers and gang members. At some point, you have to make a decision about right and wrong. So, if you have a motorcycle gang that meets at a house in your neighborhood and terrorizes the residents, after about 100 attacks on innocent neighbors and their children, you want the cops to eliminate the threat even if it means a bunch of biker kids will be placed in foster care.
The bottom line is if the people of Gaza want to live in peace and take advantage of the generosity of the world and build neighborhoods instead of terror tunnels and bombs, all they have to do is stop attacking their neighbor. At that point, you can start with moral equivalence but as long as they conduct unprovoked offensive attacks universal condemnation is warranted.
You have lost your way.!!! Lol. I really actually feel sorry for you. You cut and past left wing propaganda and claim it as your own, thinking it makes you look smart. NOT
Well said. If Hamas put their weapons down, this would be over. If Israel puts their weapons down, there will be no jews left in the middle east. The best way to illustrate the fallacy that is trying to balance the two sides.
No talking to will. AI and other left wing media have corrupted his thought processes.
