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Amazed at the NH voter analysis, on Trump

Trump had Meadows load up the trunk of his car with highly classified documents the last night before leaving the Whitehouse, transported those and other highly classified documents (337 to be exact) to his club in FL, lied multiple times about having returned them all and was then finally raided because the FBI gave him two more chances than they would have given anyone else to return the damn papers and he didn't. Trump was still lying about having them and was storing them in a bathroom and on a stage in the basement. If they had raided Mar A Lago and found nothing, you'd kind of have an argument. Instead, they found 102 classified documents that Trump refused to return, some of which were highly sensitive.

As I've said more than once re: this, Trump had at least a legal argument for all of those items. Maybe not a good one...but, that was for a court to decide. There is no criminal statute to violate when NARA disputes what is a Presidential Record...it's resolved by a court, as has been done with past Presidents.

The FBI had no reason to get involved. If Trump believed he had a reason to keep them, that's what the arbitration is for. All other "crimes" you listed were the result of FBI intervention. If he's truly guilty of something...fine. But, they wouldn't exist without unprecedented FBI actions in what was a normal POTUS dispute w/ NARA.

Even if the documents were classified, Trump has the right to access them and NARA could have worked with the former president to set up a secure location for his presidential papers, which is precisely what NARA did with Obama.

The only difference between the storage of the Obama presidential records that began in 2016 and the Mar-a-Lago storage of Trump’s presidential records was that the documents were technically within the possession of NARA. But even though the documents were legally the property of NARA, Obama still had the right to access the records, including the classified documents.

But, if NARA had legitimate concerns about the security of Mar-a-Lago (which would be weird, given that the Secret Service guards it) they should have arranged for the documents to be preserved under NARA control in a location chosen by Trump, just as it had done with Obama.

What happened is that the current administration launched a grand jury criminal investigation into Trump based on a referral from a clearly partisan archivist (based on his own words). There is a clear difference in how similar disputes were treated differently between Clinton, Obama, and Trump.

Biden and his team found the documents, informed the government immediately and cooperated with the investigation. Yet somehow that's worse.

After his lawyers discovered docs he had no legal justification to have (yes, that is worse. I could literally go to jail for the same), after Trump had been raided for arguably legal posession AND after his lawyers were given full freedom to search his home & University archive. True "equality under the law" would have resulted in a similar FBI raid.
 
As I've said more than once re: this, Trump had at least a legal argument for all of those items. Maybe not a good one...but, that was for a court to decide. There is no criminal statute to violate when NARA disputes what is a Presidential Record...it's resolved by a court, as has been done with past Presidents.

The FBI had no reason to get involved. If Trump believed he had a reason to keep them, that's what the arbitration is for. All other "crimes" you listed were the result of FBI intervention. If he's truly guilty of something...fine. But, they wouldn't exist without unprecedented FBI actions in what was a normal POTUS dispute w/ NARA.

Even if the documents were classified, Trump has the right to access them and NARA could have worked with the former president to set up a secure location for his presidential papers, which is precisely what NARA did with Obama.

The only difference between the storage of the Obama presidential records that began in 2016 and the Mar-a-Lago storage of Trump’s presidential records was that the documents were technically within the possession of NARA. But even though the documents were legally the property of NARA, Obama still had the right to access the records, including the classified documents.

But, if NARA had legitimate concerns about the security of Mar-a-Lago (which would be weird, given that the Secret Service guards it) they should have arranged for the documents to be preserved under NARA control in a location chosen by Trump, just as it had done with Obama.

What happened is that the current administration launched a grand jury criminal investigation into Trump based on a referral from a clearly partisan archivist (based on his own words). There is a clear difference in how similar disputes were treated differently between Clinton, Obama, and Trump.



After his lawyers discovered docs he had no legal justification to have (yes, that is worse. I could literally go to jail for the same), after Trump had been raided for arguably legal posession AND after his lawyers were given full freedom to search his home & University archive. True "equality under the law" would have resulted in a similar FBI raid.
Trump didn’t bother to make an argument in court. He knowingly lied that he had returned all of the documents, including having one of his lawyers sign an affidavit attesting to such.

Your entire line of defense was only raised after he was busted for lying about returning the documents, right? He not only lied, apparently Jack Smith has video evidence and testimony that Trump had the documents relocated within Mar A Lago in an effort to avoid detection by the FBI.

Regarding the Obama situation, your acknowledgment that they were technically under possession of NARA is important. NARA had catalogued exactly what documents were included in these papers and as such knew their location. That’s not at all what happened with Trump.

I also haven’t seen anyone suggest that a number of the documents Trump had in his possession were in any way related to his presidential papers. They still don’t know exactly what he took when he left and last I heard are not confident that they have everything back.
 
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Trump didn’t bother to make an argument in court. He knowingly lied that he had returned all of the documents, including having one of his lawyers sign an affidavit attesting to such.

He never got a chance to. The FBI raided him.

Your entire line of defense was only raised after he was busted for lying about returning the documents, right? He not only lied, apparently Jack Smith has video evidence and testimony that Trump had the documents relocated within Mar A Lago in an effort to avoid detection by the FBI.

I'm not defending him. I'm arguing the process is bunk. Any crimes due to lying are only because the FBI got involved. I'm not sure we have the full story on any of this. It's all leaks and one-sided legal briefs.
Regarding the Obama situation, your acknowledgment that they were technically under possession of NARA is important. NARA had catalogued exactly what documents were included in these papers and as such knew their location. That’s not at all what happened with Trump.

Possession and ownership are two different things. A POTUS can have legal possession and not "own" it.
I also haven’t seen anyone suggest that a number of the documents Trump had in his possession were in any way related to his presidential papers. They still don’t know exactly what he took when he left and last I heard are not confident that they have everything back.
That's why it's arbitrated in Court. If anything was a copy vs original the law gets murky and tilts much more to a POTUS, who is given great latitude in making those determinations.
 
He never got a chance to. The FBI raided him.



I'm not defending him. I'm arguing the process is bunk. Any crimes due to lying are only because the FBI got involved. I'm not sure we have the full story on any of this. It's all leaks and one-sided legal briefs.


Possession and ownership are two different things. A POTUS can have legal possession and not "own" it.

That's why it's arbitrated in Court. If anything was a copy vs original the law gets murky and tilts much more to a POTUS, who is given great latitude in making those determinations.
Are you saying that they didn’t formally request the return of all government documents multiple times? He could have taken his case to court after the first request on May 6th, 2021. The National Archives didn’t refer the matter to the DOJ until February, 2022 and the FBI didn’t open the investigation until the following month. At no time during the timeframe between the first request and when the raid was finally conducted in August, 2022 did Trump attempt to make the legal case that you outlined.

Timeline below.

On or about May 6, 2021: Realizing that some documents from Trump’s presidency may be missing, the National Archives asks that he turn over any presidential records he may have kept upon leaving the White House. The agency makes subsequent, repeated demands.

June 2021: The National Archives warns Trump through his representatives that it will refer the matter to the Justice Department if he does not comply.

June 24, 2021: Boxes are moved to the storage room. More than 80 boxes are kept there.

November 2021: Trump directs his executive assistant and “body man” Walt Nauta and another employee to start moving boxes from a storage room to his residence for him to review. Nauta is charged in the indictment as Trump’s co-conspirator.

Dec. 7, 2021: Nauta finds that several of Trump’s boxes have fallen, spilling papers onto the storage room floor, the indictment says. Among them is a document with a “SECRET” intelligence marking. According to the indictment, Nauta texts another Trump employee, “I opened the door and found this,” to which the other employee replies, “Oh no oh no.”

Late December 2021: The National Archives continues to demand that Trump turn over missing records from his presidency. In late December 2021, a Trump representative tells the agency that 12 boxes of records have been found and are ready to be retrieved.

January 17, 2022: Trump turns over 15 boxes to the National Archives. According to the indictment, Nauta and another Trump employee load them into Nauta’s car and take them to a commercial truck for delivery to the agency.

The boxes are found to contain 197 documents with classified markings, including 69 marked confidential, 98 secret and 30 top secret. Some documents have markings suggesting they include information from highly sensitive human sources or the collection of electronic “signals” authorized by a court under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

Feb. 9, 2022: The National Archives refers the matter to the Justice Department after a preliminary review finds the boxes contain numerous classified documents. The special agent in charge of the agency’s Office of the Inspector General writes, “Of most significant concern was that highly classified records were unfoldered, intermixed with other records” and otherwise improperly identified.

Feb. 10, 2022: Trump’s Save America PAC releases a statement insisting the return of the documents had been “routine” and “no big deal.” Trump insists the “papers were given easily and without conflict and on a very friendly basis,” and adds, “It was a great honor to work with” the National Archives “to help formally preserve the Trump Legacy.”

Feb. 18, 2022: In a letter to a congressional oversight committee, the National Archives reveals the boxes contained classified information and confirms the Justice Department referral. Trump’s Save America PAC releases another statement insisting, “The National Archives did not ‘find’ anything,” but “were given, upon request, Presidential Records in an ordinary and routine process to ensure the preservation of my legacy and in accordance with the Presidential Records Act.”

March 30, 2022: The FBI opens its investigation.

April 12, 2022: The National Archives informs Trump that, at the Justice Department’s request, it intends to provide the FBI with the 15 boxes he turned over on Jan. 17, 2022. Trump’s representative asks for an extension until April 29.

April 26, 2022: The grand jury investigation begins.

April 29, 2022: The Justice Department asks Trump’s lawyers for immediate access to the 15 boxes, citing national security interests and the need for “an assessment of the potential damage resulting from the apparent manner in which these materials were stored and transported.” Trump’s lawyers again ask for an extension, saying they need to review the material to “ascertain whether any specific document is subject to privilege.”

May 10, 2022: The National Archives informs Trump’s lawyers that it will provide the FBI access to the boxes as soon as May 12.

May 11, 2022: A grand jury issues a subpoena to Trump and his office requiring that they turn over all classified materials in their possession.

May 23, 2022: Trump’s lawyers advise him to comply with the subpoena, but Trump balks, telling them, “I don’t want anybody looking through my boxes.” Prosecutors, citing notes from one of the lawyers, say Trump wondered aloud about dodging the subpoena, asking his counsel, “Wouldn’t it be better if we just told them we don’t have anything here?” and ”isn’t it better if there are no documents?”

June 2, 2022: One of Trump’s lawyers returns to Mar-a-Lago to search boxes in the storage room and finds 38 additional classified documents — five documents marked confidential, 16 marked secret and 17 marked top secret. After the search, prosecutors say, Trump asks: “Did you find anything? ... Is it bad? Good?” and makes a plucking motion that the lawyer takes to mean that he should take out anything “really bad” before turning over the papers.

Prior to the search, prosecutors say, Trump had Nauta move 64 boxes from the storage room to his residence. Of those, 30 were moved back to the storage room, leaving 34 boxes in Trump’s residence and out of the lawyer’s sight.

June 3, 2022: FBI agents and a Justice Department lawyer visit Mar-a-Lago to collect the 38 classified documents from Trump’s lawyer. They are in a single accordion folder, double-wrapped in tape. While there, investigators are allowed to go to the storage room, but are “explicitly prohibited” from looking inside boxes, “giving no opportunity” for them “to confirm that no documents with classification markings remained,” according to a court filing.

Trump tells investigations he’s “an open book,” according to the indictment. Another Trump lawyer, acting as his custodian of records, provides investigators a sworn certification that prosecutors say falsely claimed they had conducted a “diligent search” of boxes moved from the White House and “any and all responsive documents” were turned over.

Earlier in the day, prosecutors say, some boxes were loaded onto a plane so Trump could take them to Bedminster for the summer.

June 8, 2022: The Justice Department sends Trump’s lawyer a letter asking that the storage room be secured, and that “all of the boxes that were moved from the White House to Mar-a-Lago (along with any other items in that room) be preserved in that room in their current condition until farther notice.”

July 2022: The grand jury is shown surveillance video of boxes being moved at Mar-a-Lago.

Aug. 5, 2022: The Justice Department applies for a warrant to search Mar-a-Lago, citing “probable cause” that additional presidential records and classified documents were being stored there. U.S. Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart approves the application the same day.

Aug. 8 2022: The FBI searches searches Mar-a-Lago, seizing 102 classified documents — 75 in the storage room and 27 in Trump’s office, including three found in office desks.

The Justice Department says in a subsequent court filing that the results call “into serious question” earlier representations by Trump’s legal team that they had conducted a “diligent search” and that no classified documents remained.
 
Are you saying that they didn’t formally request the return of all government documents multiple times? He could have taken his case to court after the first request on May 6th, 2021. The National Archives didn’t refer the matter to the DOJ until February, 2022 and the FBI didn’t open the investigation until the following month. At no time during the timeframe between the first request and when the raid was finally conducted in August, 2022 did Trump attempt to make the legal case that you outlined.

Timeline below.

On or about May 6, 2021: Realizing that some documents from Trump’s presidency may be missing, the National Archives asks that he turn over any presidential records he may have kept upon leaving the White House. The agency makes subsequent, repeated demands.

June 2021: The National Archives warns Trump through his representatives that it will refer the matter to the Justice Department if he does not comply.

June 24, 2021: Boxes are moved to the storage room. More than 80 boxes are kept there.

November 2021: Trump directs his executive assistant and “body man” Walt Nauta and another employee to start moving boxes from a storage room to his residence for him to review. Nauta is charged in the indictment as Trump’s co-conspirator.

Dec. 7, 2021: Nauta finds that several of Trump’s boxes have fallen, spilling papers onto the storage room floor, the indictment says. Among them is a document with a “SECRET” intelligence marking. According to the indictment, Nauta texts another Trump employee, “I opened the door and found this,” to which the other employee replies, “Oh no oh no.”

Late December 2021: The National Archives continues to demand that Trump turn over missing records from his presidency. In late December 2021, a Trump representative tells the agency that 12 boxes of records have been found and are ready to be retrieved.

January 17, 2022: Trump turns over 15 boxes to the National Archives. According to the indictment, Nauta and another Trump employee load them into Nauta’s car and take them to a commercial truck for delivery to the agency.

The boxes are found to contain 197 documents with classified markings, including 69 marked confidential, 98 secret and 30 top secret. Some documents have markings suggesting they include information from highly sensitive human sources or the collection of electronic “signals” authorized by a court under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

Feb. 9, 2022: The National Archives refers the matter to the Justice Department after a preliminary review finds the boxes contain numerous classified documents. The special agent in charge of the agency’s Office of the Inspector General writes, “Of most significant concern was that highly classified records were unfoldered, intermixed with other records” and otherwise improperly identified.

Feb. 10, 2022: Trump’s Save America PAC releases a statement insisting the return of the documents had been “routine” and “no big deal.” Trump insists the “papers were given easily and without conflict and on a very friendly basis,” and adds, “It was a great honor to work with” the National Archives “to help formally preserve the Trump Legacy.”

Feb. 18, 2022: In a letter to a congressional oversight committee, the National Archives reveals the boxes contained classified information and confirms the Justice Department referral. Trump’s Save America PAC releases another statement insisting, “The National Archives did not ‘find’ anything,” but “were given, upon request, Presidential Records in an ordinary and routine process to ensure the preservation of my legacy and in accordance with the Presidential Records Act.”

March 30, 2022: The FBI opens its investigation.

April 12, 2022: The National Archives informs Trump that, at the Justice Department’s request, it intends to provide the FBI with the 15 boxes he turned over on Jan. 17, 2022. Trump’s representative asks for an extension until April 29.

April 26, 2022: The grand jury investigation begins.

April 29, 2022: The Justice Department asks Trump’s lawyers for immediate access to the 15 boxes, citing national security interests and the need for “an assessment of the potential damage resulting from the apparent manner in which these materials were stored and transported.” Trump’s lawyers again ask for an extension, saying they need to review the material to “ascertain whether any specific document is subject to privilege.”

May 10, 2022: The National Archives informs Trump’s lawyers that it will provide the FBI access to the boxes as soon as May 12.

May 11, 2022: A grand jury issues a subpoena to Trump and his office requiring that they turn over all classified materials in their possession.

May 23, 2022: Trump’s lawyers advise him to comply with the subpoena, but Trump balks, telling them, “I don’t want anybody looking through my boxes.” Prosecutors, citing notes from one of the lawyers, say Trump wondered aloud about dodging the subpoena, asking his counsel, “Wouldn’t it be better if we just told them we don’t have anything here?” and ”isn’t it better if there are no documents?”

June 2, 2022: One of Trump’s lawyers returns to Mar-a-Lago to search boxes in the storage room and finds 38 additional classified documents — five documents marked confidential, 16 marked secret and 17 marked top secret. After the search, prosecutors say, Trump asks: “Did you find anything? ... Is it bad? Good?” and makes a plucking motion that the lawyer takes to mean that he should take out anything “really bad” before turning over the papers.

Prior to the search, prosecutors say, Trump had Nauta move 64 boxes from the storage room to his residence. Of those, 30 were moved back to the storage room, leaving 34 boxes in Trump’s residence and out of the lawyer’s sight.

June 3, 2022: FBI agents and a Justice Department lawyer visit Mar-a-Lago to collect the 38 classified documents from Trump’s lawyer. They are in a single accordion folder, double-wrapped in tape. While there, investigators are allowed to go to the storage room, but are “explicitly prohibited” from looking inside boxes, “giving no opportunity” for them “to confirm that no documents with classification markings remained,” according to a court filing.

Trump tells investigations he’s “an open book,” according to the indictment. Another Trump lawyer, acting as his custodian of records, provides investigators a sworn certification that prosecutors say falsely claimed they had conducted a “diligent search” of boxes moved from the White House and “any and all responsive documents” were turned over.

Earlier in the day, prosecutors say, some boxes were loaded onto a plane so Trump could take them to Bedminster for the summer.

June 8, 2022: The Justice Department sends Trump’s lawyer a letter asking that the storage room be secured, and that “all of the boxes that were moved from the White House to Mar-a-Lago (along with any other items in that room) be preserved in that room in their current condition until farther notice.”

July 2022: The grand jury is shown surveillance video of boxes being moved at Mar-a-Lago.

Aug. 5, 2022: The Justice Department applies for a warrant to search Mar-a-Lago, citing “probable cause” that additional presidential records and classified documents were being stored there. U.S. Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart approves the application the same day.

Aug. 8 2022: The FBI searches searches Mar-a-Lago, seizing 102 classified documents — 75 in the storage room and 27 in Trump’s office, including three found in office desks.

The Justice Department says in a subsequent court filing that the results call “into serious question” earlier representations by Trump’s legal team that they had conducted a “diligent search” and that no classified documents remained.
He didn't have to take his case to court, that's a NARA function to try and retrieve documents they believe belong in the archive. Trump was never a "plaintiff". Why would he go to court? Again, there were no criminal statutes at play.

Instead, NARA handled it completely differently than any past precedent.
 
Are you saying that they didn’t formally request the return of all government documents multiple times? He could have taken his case to court after the first request on May 6th, 2021. The National Archives didn’t refer the matter to the DOJ until February, 2022 and the FBI didn’t open the investigation until the following month. At no time during the timeframe between the first request and when the raid was finally conducted in August, 2022 did Trump attempt to make the legal case that you outlined.

Timeline below.

On or about May 6, 2021: Realizing that some documents from Trump’s presidency may be missing, the National Archives asks that he turn over any presidential records he may have kept upon leaving the White House. The agency makes subsequent, repeated demands.

June 2021: The National Archives warns Trump through his representatives that it will refer the matter to the Justice Department if he does not comply.

June 24, 2021: Boxes are moved to the storage room. More than 80 boxes are kept there.

November 2021: Trump directs his executive assistant and “body man” Walt Nauta and another employee to start moving boxes from a storage room to his residence for him to review. Nauta is charged in the indictment as Trump’s co-conspirator.

Dec. 7, 2021: Nauta finds that several of Trump’s boxes have fallen, spilling papers onto the storage room floor, the indictment says. Among them is a document with a “SECRET” intelligence marking. According to the indictment, Nauta texts another Trump employee, “I opened the door and found this,” to which the other employee replies, “Oh no oh no.”

Late December 2021: The National Archives continues to demand that Trump turn over missing records from his presidency. In late December 2021, a Trump representative tells the agency that 12 boxes of records have been found and are ready to be retrieved.

January 17, 2022: Trump turns over 15 boxes to the National Archives. According to the indictment, Nauta and another Trump employee load them into Nauta’s car and take them to a commercial truck for delivery to the agency.

The boxes are found to contain 197 documents with classified markings, including 69 marked confidential, 98 secret and 30 top secret. Some documents have markings suggesting they include information from highly sensitive human sources or the collection of electronic “signals” authorized by a court under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

Feb. 9, 2022: The National Archives refers the matter to the Justice Department after a preliminary review finds the boxes contain numerous classified documents. The special agent in charge of the agency’s Office of the Inspector General writes, “Of most significant concern was that highly classified records were unfoldered, intermixed with other records” and otherwise improperly identified.

Feb. 10, 2022: Trump’s Save America PAC releases a statement insisting the return of the documents had been “routine” and “no big deal.” Trump insists the “papers were given easily and without conflict and on a very friendly basis,” and adds, “It was a great honor to work with” the National Archives “to help formally preserve the Trump Legacy.”

Feb. 18, 2022: In a letter to a congressional oversight committee, the National Archives reveals the boxes contained classified information and confirms the Justice Department referral. Trump’s Save America PAC releases another statement insisting, “The National Archives did not ‘find’ anything,” but “were given, upon request, Presidential Records in an ordinary and routine process to ensure the preservation of my legacy and in accordance with the Presidential Records Act.”

March 30, 2022: The FBI opens its investigation.

April 12, 2022: The National Archives informs Trump that, at the Justice Department’s request, it intends to provide the FBI with the 15 boxes he turned over on Jan. 17, 2022. Trump’s representative asks for an extension until April 29.

April 26, 2022: The grand jury investigation begins.

April 29, 2022: The Justice Department asks Trump’s lawyers for immediate access to the 15 boxes, citing national security interests and the need for “an assessment of the potential damage resulting from the apparent manner in which these materials were stored and transported.” Trump’s lawyers again ask for an extension, saying they need to review the material to “ascertain whether any specific document is subject to privilege.”

May 10, 2022: The National Archives informs Trump’s lawyers that it will provide the FBI access to the boxes as soon as May 12.

May 11, 2022: A grand jury issues a subpoena to Trump and his office requiring that they turn over all classified materials in their possession.

May 23, 2022: Trump’s lawyers advise him to comply with the subpoena, but Trump balks, telling them, “I don’t want anybody looking through my boxes.” Prosecutors, citing notes from one of the lawyers, say Trump wondered aloud about dodging the subpoena, asking his counsel, “Wouldn’t it be better if we just told them we don’t have anything here?” and ”isn’t it better if there are no documents?”

June 2, 2022: One of Trump’s lawyers returns to Mar-a-Lago to search boxes in the storage room and finds 38 additional classified documents — five documents marked confidential, 16 marked secret and 17 marked top secret. After the search, prosecutors say, Trump asks: “Did you find anything? ... Is it bad? Good?” and makes a plucking motion that the lawyer takes to mean that he should take out anything “really bad” before turning over the papers.

Prior to the search, prosecutors say, Trump had Nauta move 64 boxes from the storage room to his residence. Of those, 30 were moved back to the storage room, leaving 34 boxes in Trump’s residence and out of the lawyer’s sight.

June 3, 2022: FBI agents and a Justice Department lawyer visit Mar-a-Lago to collect the 38 classified documents from Trump’s lawyer. They are in a single accordion folder, double-wrapped in tape. While there, investigators are allowed to go to the storage room, but are “explicitly prohibited” from looking inside boxes, “giving no opportunity” for them “to confirm that no documents with classification markings remained,” according to a court filing.

Trump tells investigations he’s “an open book,” according to the indictment. Another Trump lawyer, acting as his custodian of records, provides investigators a sworn certification that prosecutors say falsely claimed they had conducted a “diligent search” of boxes moved from the White House and “any and all responsive documents” were turned over.

Earlier in the day, prosecutors say, some boxes were loaded onto a plane so Trump could take them to Bedminster for the summer.

June 8, 2022: The Justice Department sends Trump’s lawyer a letter asking that the storage room be secured, and that “all of the boxes that were moved from the White House to Mar-a-Lago (along with any other items in that room) be preserved in that room in their current condition until farther notice.”

July 2022: The grand jury is shown surveillance video of boxes being moved at Mar-a-Lago.

Aug. 5, 2022: The Justice Department applies for a warrant to search Mar-a-Lago, citing “probable cause” that additional presidential records and classified documents were being stored there. U.S. Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart approves the application the same day.

Aug. 8 2022: The FBI searches searches Mar-a-Lago, seizing 102 classified documents — 75 in the storage room and 27 in Trump’s office, including three found in office desks.

The Justice Department says in a subsequent court filing that the results call “into serious question” earlier representations by Trump’s legal team that they had conducted a “diligent search” and that no classified documents remained.
Here's my issue: I don't like Trump. But, I really don't like the tools of the Federal Gov being wielded to pursue political opponents. That's not healthy and will absolutely reap bad things in the future....and not just against politicians. The likely consequences read like an Orwellian novel.

How many of the current cases against him are (in part or in total) using new/unprecedented interpretations of statutes, in an attempt to make something stick? *hint: all of them* All are trying to speed run through the system, in an attempt to have an impact prior to election day.

That should bother you.
 
He didn't have to take his case to court, that's a NARA function to try and retrieve documents they believe belong in the archive. Trump was never a "plaintiff". Why would he go to court? Again, there were no criminal statutes at play.

Instead, NARA handled it completely differently than any past precedent.
I guess the courts will decide whether NARA handled the case unfairly or were simply responding to Trump’s lies and obstruction regarding what by all accounts were some highly classified and potentially damaging documents.

I understand the comment about novel legal mechanisms, but we’ve never in our entire history had a president attempt to stop the peaceful transfer of power as Trump is being accused of. Weve never had a president take and then lie about highly classified documents. We’ve never had a president lie about election fraud. We’ve never had a president call and ask someone to find just enough votes to win. We’ve never had a president sit on their hands for three hours while a mob, proudly waving the flags of said president, was attacking the Capitol in an effort to stop certification.

There are a lot of firsts here. Of course we don’t have a standard procedure for dealing with them, given they’ve never happened before.
 
I guess the courts will decide whether NARA handled the case unfairly or were simply responding to Trump’s lies and obstruction regarding what by all accounts were some highly classified and potentially damaging documents.

I understand the comment about novel legal mechanisms, but we’ve never in our entire history had a president attempt to stop the peaceful transfer of power as Trump is being accused of. Weve never had a president take and then lie about highly classified documents. We’ve never had a president lie about election fraud. We’ve never had a president call and ask someone to find just enough votes to win. We’ve never had a president sit on their hands for three hours while a mob, proudly waving the flags of said president, was attacking the Capitol in an effort to stop certification.

There are a lot of firsts here. Of course we don’t have a standard procedure for dealing with them, given they’ve never happened before.
Here's my issue w/ your post above:

There are legitimate disagreements with your framing of the issues/situations. The problem is that it's the same justification being used by those in power to employ new/novel legal mechanisms against someone that just so happens to threaten their political power. Again, this isn't a defense of Trump, but an admonition to look at this from an angle of "this is a bad threshold to cross."

I will also additionally point out that none of your justification above explains New York's case that has no victim, where all $ was repaid, the bank says it had no issues with what happened, that real estate big wigs state is commonplace/expected in their industry, and that politicians campaigned on to seek office. It's ridiculous abuse of power.
 
It's a BS false narrative fake news is continuiously spreading.

Just like the BS story that Trump will become a dictator on Day 1, seeking out his enemies, piling on BS charges and draging them into court and sending them to prison................................kinda like the DIMS are doing to him right now? 🤣

DIMS are a cancer.

You keep saying anyone voting for Biden should be embarrassed, but it appears this will be the only alternative.

When someone tells us over and over again who he is and what his plans are, we should believe him.

He says he is above the law and now shares in detail how he’s going to purge the government via a personal/ideological loyalty test. Sound familiar?

He’s not going to capture the independent voters and a lot of Republicans will tolerate another four years of Biden over this.

Please note I’m not insulting you or any of his other supporters. Y’all believe what you believe. I’m simply saying that this guy is not going to be handed the reins of government again, and for very good reasons.

He is declaring war on the swamp and the beaurocrats that are running this country without any accountability too the people. It would be a great thing if he can pull it off. Also like the idea of term limits.
 
... Trump’s lies and obstruction ...

One last thing: You're inadvertently making an argument for Biden impeachment proceedings, who's lies re: his knowledge/involvement of Hunter's potentially illegal activities (and potentially Joe's own) have already been proven as goal posts shift about what Joe knew, how he was involved, in a potentially future criminal case. You're being inconsistent here, imo.
 
One last thing: You're inadvertently making an argument for Biden impeachment proceedings, who's lies re: his knowledge/involvement of Hunter's potentially illegal activities (and potentially Joe's own) have already been proven as goal posts shift about what Joe knew, how he was involved, in a potentially future criminal case. You're being inconsistent here, imo.
Not really. I’ve been saying for months that I would welcome the republicans initiating formal impeachment proceedings against Joe. They keep insisting they have the goods, they should do their duty, make their case before the people and attempt to remove him.

Personally, I beleive that they don’t have what they keep saying they have and a formal impeachment would be a political loser for them, but I welcome their efforts to prove me wrong.
 
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Not really. I’ve been saying for months that I would welcome the republicans initiating formal impeachment proceedings against Joe. They keep insisting they have the goods, they should do their duty, make their case before the people and attempt to remove him.

Personally, I beleive that they don’t have what they keep saying they have and a formal impeachment would be a political loser for them, but I welcome their efforts to prove me wrong.

Apologies then, I mis-remembered your stance. I think the 'goods' they have implore more investigation. But, any impeachment is an inherently political action, regardless of who it is against. So, whether it is a loser or winner will be part of the calculus, regardless of what they "have".
 
What bothers me the most about the Classified Docs case is the total lack of concern, on the part of Trump's defenders, about the damage done to the United States and its defenders.

Will's timeline above dates from May 2021 to August 2022. That's not a "speed run," that's 15 months of bending-over-backwards attempts from my government to secure information that's vitally important to US intelligence, military, and therefore every US citizen. Does anybody think the FBI would've waited 15 months to act, if this was you or me trying to break the law this way?

And why does no one seem concerned about the number of people who might've had access to these documents in the meantime? Secret and top secret docs were scattered all around Mar-A-Lago; the indictment alleges that Trump moved some of the docs to Bedminster; there, they were shown to a writer and a representative of Trump's PAC. Trump had no right to do this, not when he was President and certainly not after he'd left the WH.

Damage has intentionally been done to the US, by its former President, in many different ways, and he needs to be held accountable for his illegal actions.
 
What bothers me the most about the Classified Docs case is the total lack of concern, on the part of Trump's defenders, about the damage done to the United States and its defenders.

Will's timeline above dates from May 2021 to August 2022. That's not a "speed run," that's 15 months of bending-over-backwards attempts from my government to secure information that's vitally important to US intelligence, military, and therefore every US citizen. Does anybody think the FBI would've waited 15 months to act, if this was you or me trying to break the law this way?

And why does no one seem concerned about the number of people who might've had access to these documents in the meantime? Secret and top secret docs were scattered all around Mar-A-Lago; the indictment alleges that Trump moved some of the docs to Bedminster; there, they were shown to a writer and a representative of Trump's PAC. Trump had no right to do this, not when he was President and certainly not after he'd left the WH.

Damage has intentionally been done to the US, by its former President, in many different ways, and he needs to be held accountable for his illegal actions.

What "damage"? We've had zero details on what those classified documents detail (beyond the "Nuclear" leak which still doesn't tell us anything). For example: A memo that detailed his travel itinerary to South Korea during his Presidency to meet w/ North Korea would still be "Secret" based on current declassification timelines. It would be difficult to argue that any revelations in that would "damage" anything. I could literally list another 100 examples of harmless documents that would remain classified for decades.

1. If he had something he had no business having & current classified spillage was done that legit hurt US interests if found, throw the proverbial book at him. If he had a copy of something he had POTUS-right to keep (and subsequently protected)...there is no crime. As has been said repeatedly...possessing classified material is a right that former POTUS's have & in every previous example NARA has worked through disagreements to provide access & protect that docs.

2. If this was a case of something being technically classified & leaking it was strategic to further political aims, color me unimpressed.

I've seen literally thousands of classified documents in my career. I need more details before I even begin to be "concerned", based on what we already know.
 
Not really. I’ve been saying for months that I would welcome the republicans initiating formal impeachment proceedings against Joe. They keep insisting they have the goods, they should do their duty, make their case before the people and attempt to remove him.

Personally, I beleive that they don’t have what they keep saying they have and a formal impeachment would be a political loser for them, but I welcome their efforts to prove me wrong.
The Pubs are a little more level headed than you Dems. The Dems made fools out of themselves by falsely impeaching Trump twice.
 
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I am shocked to hear the number of Republican voters, who say, if Trump is the nominee, they will vote for Biden.

I can't wrap my brain around that.

I get not liking Trump. But I don't get going so far, as to vote for Joe Biden.
Trump said today for the Reps to say "no" on the potential border deal unless they get EVERYTHING they want.
Said he didn't want to give Biden any momentum.
America first....
 
What "damage"? We've had zero details on what those classified documents detail (beyond the "Nuclear" leak which still doesn't tell us anything). For example: A memo that detailed his travel itinerary to South Korea during his Presidency to meet w/ North Korea would still be "Secret" based on current declassification timelines. It would be difficult to argue that any revelations in that would "damage" anything. I could literally list another 100 examples of harmless documents that would remain classified for decades.

1. If he had something he had no business having & current classified spillage was done that legit hurt US interests if found, throw the proverbial book at him. If he had a copy of something he had POTUS-right to keep (and subsequently protected)...there is no crime. As has been said repeatedly...possessing classified material is a right that former POTUS's have & in every previous example NARA has worked through disagreements to provide access & protect that docs.

2. If this was a case of something being technically classified & leaking it was strategic to further political aims, color me unimpressed.

I've seen literally thousands of classified documents in my career. I need more details before I even begin to be "concerned", based on what we already know.
Good post, I’m under the impression if FBI / judicial department found top secret stuff that REALLY put Americans at risk it would have leaked by now. I figure they leaked what they thought 💭 was a big deal early, can’t imagine them not leaking other stuff to The NY Times if they had more incriminating stuff . We shall see.
 
Trump said today for the Reps to say "no" on the potential border deal unless they get EVERYTHING they want.
Said he didn't want to give Biden any momentum.
America first....
I don’t think I would bend at this point either. We had 3 years of no border and in the 9th hour because he is in a pickle he is willing to make some concessions as he is getting heat from blue states. Go all in or walk out, that would be my negotiation tactic and I am not a trump guy. Biden made this mess, own it.
 
Trump said today for the Reps to say "no" on the potential border deal unless they get EVERYTHING they want.
Said he didn't want to give Biden any momentum.
America first....
I am going to put this in its own thread. It deserves it. But you said this. So I figured it applies here. You can’t make this shit up.

 
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What bothers me the most about the Classified Docs case is the total lack of concern, on the part of Trump's defenders, about the damage done to the United States and its defenders.

Will's timeline above dates from May 2021 to August 2022. That's not a "speed run," that's 15 months of bending-over-backwards attempts from my government to secure information that's vitally important to US intelligence, military, and therefore every US citizen. Does anybody think the FBI would've waited 15 months to act, if this was you or me trying to break the law this way?

And why does no one seem concerned about the number of people who might've had access to these documents in the meantime? Secret and top secret docs were scattered all around Mar-A-Lago; the indictment alleges that Trump moved some of the docs to Bedminster; there, they were shown to a writer and a representative of Trump's PAC. Trump had no right to do this, not when he was President and certainly not after he'd left the WH.

Damage has intentionally been done to the US, by its former President, in many different ways, and he needs to be held accountable for his illegal actions.
No pubs have said it is a good thing either. At the same token. Haven’t heard you say one thing about Biden having them at his home. When he had no right or power to have them. For forty years. He had them. And worse he didn’t even know it. Literally indefensible. And all based on facts.

We don’t even know the facts of the trump doc case. When we do. Throw the book at him. We know what it is on Biden. Already. Yet nothing.
 
No pubs have said it is a good thing either. At the same token. Haven’t heard you say one thing about Biden having them at his home. When he had no right or power to have them. For forty years. He had them. And worse he didn’t even know it. Literally indefensible. And all based on facts.

We don’t even know the facts of the trump doc case. When we do. Throw the book at him. We know what it is on Biden. Already. Yet nothing.
I would spend decades in jail for what Biden has already proven to have done. Decades. There is zero reason to remove TS material from a SCIF w/o explicit permission, reason, and special actions taken to protect it, all for a limited amount of time...and even less reason to lose track of it for years. It's horseshit and any member of Congress that violates this deserves the full force of the law.
 
I would spend decades in jail for what Biden has already proven to have done. Decades. There is zero reason to remove TS material from a SCIF w/o explicit permission, reason, and special actions taken to protect it, all for a limited amount of time...and even less reason to lose track of it for years. It's horseshit and any member of Congress that violates this deserves the full force of the law.
He just has the correct letter besides his name. There is literally video of him pinching a 8 year old’s nipple. And she came out and said it happened. He dodged that. How is that even possible
 
I am shocked to hear the number of Republican voters, who say, if Trump is the nominee, they will vote for Biden.

I can't wrap my brain around that.

I get not liking Trump. But I don't get going so far, as to vote for Joe Biden.
They are morons. No other logical explanation.
 
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Yeah, you missed it.

At the beginning of his 2024 campaign, Donald Trump promised to avenge his enemies during a second term, telling a gathering of conservative activists: “I am your retribution.”

But he didn't quote him. So you must not have understood what you read. But I'm quoting him here. He definitely used retribution.
Can you blame him? Your Dems made up lies and pushed it for years, wasted millions of my tax dollars pushing their BS and blocked him every step of the way. Despite that he got our country and economy doing the best it had in years until Covid hit. Now the same shit with these court cases that are BS. Biden is the one who has screwed our country to line his pockets. He should spend the rest of his sorry life in jail along with several of his family. I’d be pissed too after going through the garbage they have thrown at Trump. We must clean house and get rid of many in the alphabet agencies and clean out the garbage in Washington. If not then our country will not survive.
 
Trump had Meadows load up the trunk of his car with highly classified documents the last night before leaving the Whitehouse, transported those and other highly classified documents (337 to be exact) to his club in FL, lied multiple times about having returned them all and was then finally raided because the FBI gave him two more chances than they would have given anyone else to return the damn papers and he didn't. Trump was still lying about having them and was storing them in a bathroom and on a stage in the basement. If they had raided Mar A Lago and found nothing, you'd kind of have an argument. Instead, they found 102 classified documents that Trump refused to return, some of which were highly sensitive.

Biden and his team found the documents, informed the government immediately and cooperated with the investigation. Yet somehow that's worse.

There isn't much point is debating with you. You feel Trump is unfairly maligned, he hasn't done anything that other presidents aren't also guilty of, if reelected, he wouldn't really behave as if he is above the law, even though his lawyers are making that case in court right now, and on and on and on.

My point is, don't be surprised when independents and reasonable republicans view Trump and his behavior in a less charitable light, which was the original topic of this thread. He's going to end up screwing the GOP again just as he did in 2018, 2020 and 2022.
There is truly no hope for you. Absolutely none. Go smoke your weed in a corner somewhere.
 
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Can you blame him? Your Dems made up lies and pushed it for years, wasted millions of my tax dollars pushing their BS and blocked him every step of the way. Despite that he got our country and economy doing the best it had in years until Covid hit. Now the same shit with these court cases that are BS. Biden is the one who has screwed our country to line his pockets. He should spend the rest of his sorry life in jail along with several of his family. I’d be pissed too after going through the garbage they have thrown at Trump. We must clean house and get rid of many in the alphabet agencies and clean out the garbage in Washington. If not then our country will not survive.
Not my Dems anymore than someone in Alaska is your patient. Someone claimed Trump didn't say something and wanted a quote. I gave it. Read, learn, listen before reacting.
 
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Are you saying that they didn’t formally request the return of all government documents multiple times? He could have taken his case to court after the first request on May 6th, 2021. The National Archives didn’t refer the matter to the DOJ until February, 2022 and the FBI didn’t open the investigation until the following month. At no time during the timeframe between the first request and when the raid was finally conducted in August, 2022 did Trump attempt to make the legal case that you outlined.

Timeline below.

On or about May 6, 2021: Realizing that some documents from Trump’s presidency may be missing, the National Archives asks that he turn over any presidential records he may have kept upon leaving the White House. The agency makes subsequent, repeated demands.

June 2021: The National Archives warns Trump through his representatives that it will refer the matter to the Justice Department if he does not comply.

June 24, 2021: Boxes are moved to the storage room. More than 80 boxes are kept there.

November 2021: Trump directs his executive assistant and “body man” Walt Nauta and another employee to start moving boxes from a storage room to his residence for him to review. Nauta is charged in the indictment as Trump’s co-conspirator.

Dec. 7, 2021: Nauta finds that several of Trump’s boxes have fallen, spilling papers onto the storage room floor, the indictment says. Among them is a document with a “SECRET” intelligence marking. According to the indictment, Nauta texts another Trump employee, “I opened the door and found this,” to which the other employee replies, “Oh no oh no.”

Late December 2021: The National Archives continues to demand that Trump turn over missing records from his presidency. In late December 2021, a Trump representative tells the agency that 12 boxes of records have been found and are ready to be retrieved.

January 17, 2022: Trump turns over 15 boxes to the National Archives. According to the indictment, Nauta and another Trump employee load them into Nauta’s car and take them to a commercial truck for delivery to the agency.

The boxes are found to contain 197 documents with classified markings, including 69 marked confidential, 98 secret and 30 top secret. Some documents have markings suggesting they include information from highly sensitive human sources or the collection of electronic “signals” authorized by a court under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

Feb. 9, 2022: The National Archives refers the matter to the Justice Department after a preliminary review finds the boxes contain numerous classified documents. The special agent in charge of the agency’s Office of the Inspector General writes, “Of most significant concern was that highly classified records were unfoldered, intermixed with other records” and otherwise improperly identified.

Feb. 10, 2022: Trump’s Save America PAC releases a statement insisting the return of the documents had been “routine” and “no big deal.” Trump insists the “papers were given easily and without conflict and on a very friendly basis,” and adds, “It was a great honor to work with” the National Archives “to help formally preserve the Trump Legacy.”

Feb. 18, 2022: In a letter to a congressional oversight committee, the National Archives reveals the boxes contained classified information and confirms the Justice Department referral. Trump’s Save America PAC releases another statement insisting, “The National Archives did not ‘find’ anything,” but “were given, upon request, Presidential Records in an ordinary and routine process to ensure the preservation of my legacy and in accordance with the Presidential Records Act.”

March 30, 2022: The FBI opens its investigation.

April 12, 2022: The National Archives informs Trump that, at the Justice Department’s request, it intends to provide the FBI with the 15 boxes he turned over on Jan. 17, 2022. Trump’s representative asks for an extension until April 29.

April 26, 2022: The grand jury investigation begins.

April 29, 2022: The Justice Department asks Trump’s lawyers for immediate access to the 15 boxes, citing national security interests and the need for “an assessment of the potential damage resulting from the apparent manner in which these materials were stored and transported.” Trump’s lawyers again ask for an extension, saying they need to review the material to “ascertain whether any specific document is subject to privilege.”

May 10, 2022: The National Archives informs Trump’s lawyers that it will provide the FBI access to the boxes as soon as May 12.

May 11, 2022: A grand jury issues a subpoena to Trump and his office requiring that they turn over all classified materials in their possession.

May 23, 2022: Trump’s lawyers advise him to comply with the subpoena, but Trump balks, telling them, “I don’t want anybody looking through my boxes.” Prosecutors, citing notes from one of the lawyers, say Trump wondered aloud about dodging the subpoena, asking his counsel, “Wouldn’t it be better if we just told them we don’t have anything here?” and ”isn’t it better if there are no documents?”

June 2, 2022: One of Trump’s lawyers returns to Mar-a-Lago to search boxes in the storage room and finds 38 additional classified documents — five documents marked confidential, 16 marked secret and 17 marked top secret. After the search, prosecutors say, Trump asks: “Did you find anything? ... Is it bad? Good?” and makes a plucking motion that the lawyer takes to mean that he should take out anything “really bad” before turning over the papers.

Prior to the search, prosecutors say, Trump had Nauta move 64 boxes from the storage room to his residence. Of those, 30 were moved back to the storage room, leaving 34 boxes in Trump’s residence and out of the lawyer’s sight.

June 3, 2022: FBI agents and a Justice Department lawyer visit Mar-a-Lago to collect the 38 classified documents from Trump’s lawyer. They are in a single accordion folder, double-wrapped in tape. While there, investigators are allowed to go to the storage room, but are “explicitly prohibited” from looking inside boxes, “giving no opportunity” for them “to confirm that no documents with classification markings remained,” according to a court filing.

Trump tells investigations he’s “an open book,” according to the indictment. Another Trump lawyer, acting as his custodian of records, provides investigators a sworn certification that prosecutors say falsely claimed they had conducted a “diligent search” of boxes moved from the White House and “any and all responsive documents” were turned over.

Earlier in the day, prosecutors say, some boxes were loaded onto a plane so Trump could take them to Bedminster for the summer.

June 8, 2022: The Justice Department sends Trump’s lawyer a letter asking that the storage room be secured, and that “all of the boxes that were moved from the White House to Mar-a-Lago (along with any other items in that room) be preserved in that room in their current condition until farther notice.”

July 2022: The grand jury is shown surveillance video of boxes being moved at Mar-a-Lago.

Aug. 5, 2022: The Justice Department applies for a warrant to search Mar-a-Lago, citing “probable cause” that additional presidential records and classified documents were being stored there. U.S. Magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart approves the application the same day.

Aug. 8 2022: The FBI searches searches Mar-a-Lago, seizing 102 classified documents — 75 in the storage room and 27 in Trump’s office, including three found in office desks.

The Justice Department says in a subsequent court filing that the results call “into serious question” earlier representations by Trump’s legal team that they had conducted a “diligent search” and that no classified documents remained.
You need to get a life and move to Moscow.
 
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The polls have been very clear on which of the Republican candidates can do that, and at this time, Trump is not one of them. Win the war, not the battle.
you might be right. but polls the last 2 weeks beg to differ.
 
That site makes msnbc look conservative. Wtf are you reading out there brother. Help is available. Please seek it immediately. 🤦‍♂️
Well, RT is practically an arm of Russian state media, and they carried the story.


What’s so difficult to believe? Putin materially supported Trump in 2016 and 2020 and will certainly support him again in 2024. Republicans are the ones pushing back on further support for Ukraine.

It is an absolute fact that Putin is more aligned with US conservatives over liberals, which was the point of my response to @ugadoc. Her geopolitical understanding seems to be frozen some time between the ‘60s and the ‘80s.
 
Well, RT is practically an arm of Russian state media, and they carried the story.


What’s so difficult to believe? Putin materially supported Trump in 2016 and 2020 and will certainly support him again in 2024. Republicans are the ones pushing back on further support for Ukraine.

It is an absolute fact that Putin is more aligned with US conservatives over liberals, which was the point of my response to @ugadoc. Her geopolitical understanding seems to be frozen some time between the ‘60s and the ‘80s.
Certainly their prior relationship had something to do with that. Ironically Putin was on his best behavior when trump was in office. Weak, vege, slow joe gets in there and everyone starts attacking everyone. And your favorite son Iran is now attacking us with our own money.

Pubs don’t want Putin to win. Or even root for him. No one is moving to Russia. Seriously. Media creation.
 
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THIS is a potentially interesting development. I suggest reading the article (it provides links)

It's short, there's more there, but a brief summary of what the author said:

1. In 2014, President Obama created, via executive action (it wasn't public knowledge), the Presidential Information Technology Committee (PITC),

2. Under PITC, if the president accessed data, it was presumptively his.

3. What Obama established has implications for the use of the federal witness tampering statute against Trump

4. "Under a Supreme Court doctrine known as Brady, these secrets about how the Obama White House — and purportedly Trump’s White House — stored and accessed its data, to the extent relevant to the facts underlying Trump’s various indictments, must be disclosed to Trump. If records at Mar-a-Lago originated from the PITC system, then Trump not only was authorized to have them but lacked the intent required to allegedly commit criminal removal of those records."

5. Department of Justice had a legal obligation to determine which, if any, records subject to its investigation originated from the PITC system and then disclose those facts to the Trump defense team. That clearly did not happen.
 
Trump said today for the Reps to say "no" on the potential border deal unless they get EVERYTHING they want.
Said he didn't want to give Biden any momentum.
America first..
“You heard from the president, I think on the, just a moment ago, that certainly he feels that there are things that are within his power, but there are also things that are not within his power that he is looking for a congressional authority to do in order to step up border security," said White House Deputy Press Secretary Olivia Dalton. “We’re in the middle of negotiating a good faith across the aisle with Democrats and Republicans in the Senate to try and get this proposal done."

The White House DPS admits there are things Biden can do now to reduce the flow and we know he has sued Texas over barriers and razor wire. We know he scrapped remain in Mexico and has done nothing to this point to secure the border. Why do Pubs need to try to negotiate in good faith with a POTUS that has shown he will not act in good faith.
 
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