I try to never forget we all part of Dawgnation.You are much more patient than I am.![]()
I try to never forget we all part of Dawgnation.You are much more patient than I am.![]()
You’re really 66?Wow. You're repeating Putin speak. I'm afraid the Nazis lost WWII. Putin calls Ukraine Nazis because they got rid of his puppet government in 2014. Euro maidan. Check it out. Someone explain to me why Trump is still carrying Putin's water.
Maybe they know there is zero chance peace happens if Z doesn’t accept admittedly tough realities in terms of his chances to win….and what Putin is willing to give to end the War.You completely ignore the very intentional and provocative language that Trump and his administration have directed toward Zelenskyy and Ukraine since taking office. It’s entirely unprecedented and, as I’m sure you know, diplomacy and international relations are involve direct and indirect messaging.
All of the Trump administration messaging sends a very clear picture regarding a realignment with Russia. Trump’s rhetoric, Vance’s Munich speech, multiple statements from Hegseth, the U.N. vote and yesterday’s debacle. The diplomatic messaging is clear.
So it’s not like Zelensky came to the WH with a great feeling about the relationship. He determined that he needed to reply to what has been an endless stream of negative messaging and signals. That’s not an unreasonable position on his part.
All of this is 100% on Zelensky.Maybe they know there is zero chance peace happens if Z doesn’t accept admittedly tough realities in terms of his chances to win….and what Putin is willing to give to end the War.
In the meantime, a thousand 18-35 year olds die every week. What happened to the party of peace?
I stand by my assertion that it was an orchestrated ambush.Vance was lecturing to reporters, not Zelensky.
Trump's antagonism of Ukraine is because of frustrations dealing with them up to today. Again, you can hate that - fine. But to use that to suggest this was planned subterfuge is preferring your own narrative to trying to understand what has gone on.
There was a full deal on the table today. One Trump wanted. One Ukraine agreed to. And it was blown up because Zelensky couldn't hold his tongue.
Yes, because the "reporter" doesn't like Zelensky.
Because the aggressor is the one with the leverage.
One bad meeting doesn't mean the deal is dead. The question is whether Zelensky can dig himself out of the hole he made. His Fox interview today wasn't a good start.
Maybe Zelensky has some sense talked into him and he comes back the table. Would love to see it. But we haven't seen that from Zelensky so far.
If Zelensky doesn't rebuild his position with Trump, you have two options: Ukraine become increasingly dependent on Europe - and them willing to make up declining American support, which will further divide the EU and DC, or you will have political change in Ukraine. Simple as that.
I stand by my assertion that it was an orchestrated ambush.
The first comment Trump makes to the press upon Zelensky’s arrival is the snide remark, “Oh, look, he’s all dressed up today”. That’s setting the table.
Of course, not only was Elon not wearing a suit or tie during the recent press event at the WH, he was wearing a baseball cap and a tee shirt. Also, his child was running around interrupting the event while directing comments to the president and no one on the right said a word about it.
To think Putin runs Trump is just stupid talk…When you have a leader like Putin w/the nukes he has at hand, it’s idiotic to think Ukraine or whoever could stop Russia in this case. Until the USA can stop his nukes there’s no way in hell we should or would all out fight Russia…that is vice versa. We both along with China are pretty much kings of the planet. Russia at this point is not going to be defeated. Z should have negotiated a way to keep what he could of Ukraine, but without the USA/ Europe there is zero chance Z can defeat or stop Russia aggression. Putin will only lose so much until he takes the war to another level. Throwing $billions more into their fight is only a waste of time, $, and lives. Once Russia acquired the nukes they have decades ago they only go down if everybody goes down. That’s why we don’t go to war with Russia and or China. MOTrump and Vance ambushed Zelensky today and I suspect Trump is going to use the fake outrage caused by a leader trying to defend the existence of his country to end all aid to Ukraine.
This has been the plan all along. The UN vote with Russia, the lies about who started the war and Zelensky's lack of support at home, the lies claiming nearly double the spend in aid compared to what we have actually spent. Even the stupid comments about Zelensky's attire (look at what Churchill wore to visit the WH during wartime). All with not a single word about Russia or Putin.
This was all set up for today. I'll wager that we will end all aid, and it will lead to what will likely be an end to the NATO alliance within two years. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.
Could Putin have written this script any better?
and his $billions most likelyIsn't Assad hiding in Russia these days.
The Cold War was cold because both sides had nukes, just like now. No one, least of all Ukraine, is suggesting that they are going to conquer Russia. That’s not the end game.To think Putin runs Trump is just stupid talk…When you have a leader like Putin w/the nukes he has at hand, it’s idiotic to think Ukraine or whoever could stop Russia in this case. Until the USA can stop his nukes there’s no way in hell we should or would all out fight Russia…that is vice versa. We both along with China are pretty much kings of the planet. Russia at this point is not going to be defeated. Z should have negotiated a way to keep what he could of Ukraine, but without the USA/ Europe there is zero chance Z can defeat or stop Russia aggression. Putin will only lose so much until he takes the war to another level. Throwing $billions more into their fight is only a waste of time, $, and lives. Once Russia acquired the nukes they have decades ago they only go down if everybody goes down. That’s why we don’t go to war with Russia and or China. MO
I want them both to lose. I hate them both. But, do you know the reason why Putin invaded? Putin is a POS, to be sure, but Zelenskyy was being provocative. Doesn’t justify war, of course, but don't act like Ukraine is lily-white.The Cold War was cold because both sides had nukes, just like now. No one, least of all Ukraine, is suggesting that they are going to conquer Russia. That’s not the end game.
They want as much of their territory back as they can get and they want real security guarantees for the West that will stop Russia from rolling in to Ukraine again the next time they feel sufficiently threatened by a former satellite state now functioning as a democracy.
A thousand times, this. We already all agree with you, libs, Putin is, indeed, a big mean stinky poo-poo head.To think Putin runs Trump is just stupid talk…When you have a leader like Putin w/the nukes he has at hand, it’s idiotic to think Ukraine or whoever could stop Russia in this case. Until the USA can stop his nukes there’s no way in hell we should or would all out fight Russia…that is vice versa. We both along with China are pretty much kings of the planet. Russia at this point is not going to be defeated. Z should have negotiated a way to keep what he could of Ukraine, but without the USA/ Europe there is zero chance Z can defeat or stop Russia aggression. Putin will only lose so much until he takes the war to another level. Throwing $billions more into their fight is only a waste of time, $, and lives. Once Russia acquired the nukes they have decades ago they only go down if everybody goes down. That’s why we don’t go to war with Russia and or China. MO
Correct me if I’m wrong, but Elon wasn’t there with his hand out begging for help. Also, I’ve seen Elon in a suit plenty of times. Zelensky, never.I stand by my assertion that it was an orchestrated ambush.
The first comment Trump makes to the press upon Zelensky’s arrival is the snide remark, “Oh, look, he’s all dressed up today”. That’s setting the table.
Then Brian Glenn, One America’s Voice correspondent and rumored MTG paramour, asks what is by any measure a rude and disrespectfully communicated question using a tone that I’ve never heard from a WH reporter. He was chiding and lecturing a head of state. How did that happen?
Of course, not only was Elon not wearing a suit or tie during the recent press event at the WH, he was wearing a baseball cap and a tee shirt. Also, his child was running around interrupting the event while directing comments to the president and no one on the right said a word about it.
You lost the plot there.Ukraine is a critical American ally, fighting on the front lines against an authoritarian aggressor.
Unlike most of the drivel on this board, you actually bring up some good points. It’s a nuanced conversation however, which many on this board and in the oval office fail to grasp.You lost the plot there.
Yes Ukraine is fighting on the front lines against an authoritarian aggressor but they have never been a critical American ally. Russia took Crimea from them in 2014 under Obama without anything other than some umbrage and a few sanctions.
Most thought Putin was going to walk in and take the rest of the country three years ago and then were surprised at how ineffective and poorly planned their special operation was so the west started shipping them weapons and upped the sanctions hoping Putin/Russia would crumble under their weight. It didn't happen and now we're getting to the end game.
It's taken three years but Putin created a war economy and using superior numbers to take territory in exchange for Russian lives in a war of attrition. Nobody should be surprised at the tactic or the Russian political leadership's inclination to sacrifice lives to achieve a military goal. Ukraine will run out of men before they run out of weapons unless there is some change in the equation that puts western forces directly in the conflict.
US boots in Ukraine is not happening and opens the door to WW III. Anybody should understand we can't be supporting direct operations against Russia against targets inside Russian territory. Even Biden put restrictions on using the offensive capabilities of our weapons. This isn't some proxy Viet Nam or Middle East conflict. This will seen as an invasion by US lead NATO and an existential attack on the Russian motherland. We could get into battlefield nuclear strikes that escalate in the worst case. The Russian people will rally around Putin and they will throw everything they have at our troops. It will be bloody.
It's a sad situation for Ukraine but they aren't NATO members and they are not vital to our national interest and never have been. They're a pawn that we've been using to punish and weaken Putin. Putin is a ruthless dictator but he's not trying to spread world communism and overrun Western Europe like the USSR back in the cold war. The weaponry and risk calculus that could lead to strikes on our soil have changed drastically. Those oceans don't protect us like they did during WWII. If we have to fight Putin at some point, which is only speculation, then the Ukraine is not the hill we need to dying on. If the EU takes their own defense seriously, they've got way plenty people and resources to build their own deterrent threat instead of dragging us into a regional conflict on the Russian border. Over three decades since the wall came down, it's high time they took over their own defense or at least became a really serous challenge to attack without us.
Hypothetically speaking, what do you think we'd be doing if Russia suddenly sent troops to Mexico? That would be inviting trouble. We look poorly on them poking around Venezuela and almost went to war over Cuba.
People need to understand the reality of the situation on the ground there. Ukraine wants us to put boots on the ground there to save them because the rest of EU doesn't have the capabilities. They are not vital enough to our national interest to risk a global conflict. Their best hope is a brokered ceasefire because that at least gives them a chance to fight another day. The mineral deal is a unseemly but there's some logic in the idea that at least we'd have some interest in being there and the Russians might be reticent to shoot at our operations. With some guarantees that Ukraine wouldn't join NATO or maybe the EU then maybe that keeps them around to see what happens to Putin and Russia over the next 20 years.
Why would Putin accept a ceasefire that put western troops on his border? He will take the whole country by attrition given time. It's not money or missiles. It's manpower. Ukraine is just going to run out at some point and I would suspect when it starts to happen it will be a dam break and end pretty quickly. At the end of the day, what do we gain from our investment? Nothing other than bleeding Putin down manpower while he's built an economy based on war and potentially made him more dangerous? You don't really turn those things off without some kind of offramp that lets them reintegrate in the world economy in a peaceful manner.The Cold War was cold because both sides had nukes, just like now. No one, least of all Ukraine, is suggesting that they are going to conquer Russia. That’s not the end game.
They want as much of their territory back as they can get and they want real security guarantees for the West that will stop Russia from rolling in to Ukraine again the next time they feel sufficiently threatened by a former satellite state now functioning as a democracy.
A couple of very good posts brother. Really good. I couldn’t agree more. This isn’t going to happen by any conventional way. This is way more about Russia-USA relations than Ukraine.Why would Putin accept a ceasefire that put western troops on his border? He will take the whole country by attrition given time. It's not money or missies. It's manpower. Ukraine is just going to run out at some point and I would suspect when it starts to happen it will be a dam break and end pretty quickly. At the end of the day, what do we gain from our investment? Nothing other than bleeding Putin down manpower while he's built an economy based on war and potentially made him more dangerous? You don't really turn those things off without some kind of offramp that lets them reintegrate in the world economy in a peaceful manner.
I don't see any scenario where putting US troops in armed conflict on the Russian border ends well. We'd have to target Russian sites to defend our troops and that is basically us invading their territory. That's insanity with a country armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons that thinks their under existential threat by a foreign power.
I have never cared at all for Trump but a ceasefire that at least gives Ukraine some time to breath and still exist, and the EU to figure out how to stand on their own two feet may be as good as it gets. No guarantee that he doesn't attack again in a few years but if he is really planning to do that, then he's likely not going to agree to anything that makes his job harder by allowing western forces to patrol a ceasefire line. Honestly I don't know why he would even agree to a ceasefire at all given his willingness to let every soldier in Russia die to achieve his goals.
I think the real carrot for Putin would be an agreement with the US for a path away from the sanctions they're under. That's dangerous in it's own right and he'd have to be watched like a hawk. Rewarding bad behavior is unseemly but the pariah thing may make them more dangerous if building weapons is the only way their economy continues to function.
I worry about Putin pushing the envelope because of the way people perceive his and trump’s relationship. I could see him trying to use this to his advantage...
Haha. I know. Saying it gets the same responses. Trump is a Putin puppet. Trump can do no wrong etc. Would be very hard to debate you on this topic. The other day’s circus did lead to Trump telling zelensky he is only aligned with one country’s interests. Which I appreciated hearing him say it.I'm fully aware that there is a large sect that won't believe this: But, Trump is far more self-aware than most give him credit for. He's literally mocked himself for decades, for exactly what he's accused of being. You don't do SNL, for example, w/o being aware of how you're perceived. He's not dumb or insulated.
Putin is every bit an egotistical asshole that Trump is (and more). The difference? Trump has native naysayers. Putin is surrounded by sycophants that never challenge him, for fear of death (literally). Perhaps Trump understands exactly who Putin is?
I think everybody is far-too focused on Trump and not (for example) Zelynskyy and the smoke that surrounded his contacts prior to the WH meeting and/or the clear shenanigans that surrounded his obvious plan to submarine something he had already agreed to.
I'd provide links, but those that should read them, ignore them and/or pretend they don't exist. I'd love to be challenged on this. I'm begging, actually.
Would be very hard to debate you on this topic.
I'm fully aware that there is a large sect that won't believe this: But, Trump is far more self-aware than most give him credit for. He's literally mocked himself for decades, for exactly what he's accused of being. You don't do SNL, for example, w/o being aware of how you're perceived. He's not dumb or insulated.
Putin is every bit an egotistical asshole that Trump is (and more). The difference? Trump has native naysayers. Putin is surrounded by sycophants that never challenge him, for fear of death (literally). Perhaps Trump understands exactly who Putin is?
I think everybody is far-too focused on Trump and not (for example) Zelynskyy and the smoke that surrounded his contacts prior to the WH meeting and/or the clear shenanigans that surrounded his obvious plan to submarine something he had already agreed to.
I'd provide links, but those that should read them, ignore them and/or pretend they don't exist. I'd love to be challenged on this. I'm begging, actually.
Wait, that was a meeting between the leaders of two countries?
I thought I was watching LARP of Beavis and Butthead,
Zelenskyy came over, ostensibly, to sign off on a deal he made.
Smile, sign your deal you made, all while dressed like Sen. Fetterman (D-PA), then fly back home to Ukraine while there’s still an Ukraine.
Remember, back when Ukraine had a puncher’s chance in this war, Poland wanted to send them fighter jets.
Who objected?
C’mon, man
Ukraine apparently has a whole buncha rare earth minerals. We need those so we can make batteries for y’all’s electric hippie cars.
We could wait for Baron Trump to become a crackhead and a whoremonger and to secure us rights to a Congolese cobalt mine, as the former First Son did for China, but we’ve sunk a lot of money into Ukraine, and if we don’t get a deal done and get that cookie, Putin is gonna conquer Ukraine and do it.
Russia gets money for its war machine when they can exploit the value in natural resources. Like when c’mon man green lights their oil pipeline the second he gets in office.
Trump is the Russian puppet, though. Because bad orange man.
Let’s all take time to criticize our President over lying about whether it is $150 billion or $350 billion.
Either is a whole shit-ton of money.. Both are more than the reported hundred billion dollars given to Ukraine that was reported as “we dont know where the **** that money went and we can’t account for it.”
Please, let’s all piss more money down that well as we bitch about bad orange man.
Either sum was put on our children’s’ credit card. All of us. Let’s all think on that as we drive our electric hippie cars to work tomorrow.
Trump and Vance ambushed Zelensky today and I suspect Trump is going to use the fake outrage caused by a leader trying to defend the existence of his country to end all aid to Ukraine.
This has been the plan all along. The UN vote with Russia, the lies about who started the war and Zelensky's lack of support at home, the lies claiming nearly double the spend in aid compared to what we have actually spent. Even the stupid comments about Zelensky's attire (look at what Churchill wore to visit the WH during wartime). All with not a single word about Russia or Putin.
This was all set up for today. I'll wager that we will end all aid, and it will lead to what will likely be an end to the NATO alliance within two years. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.
Could Putin have written this script any better?
and btw, Z is corrupt…so there’s thatTo think Putin runs Trump is just stupid talk…When you have a leader like Putin w/the nukes he has at hand, it’s idiotic to think Ukraine or whoever could stop Russia in this case. Until the USA can stop his nukes there’s no way in hell we should or would all out fight Russia…that is vice versa. We both along with China are pretty much kings of the planet. Russia at this point is not going to be defeated. Z should have negotiated a way to keep what he could of Ukraine, but without the USA/ Europe there is zero chance Z can defeat or stop Russia aggression. Putin will only lose so much until he takes the war to another level. Throwing $billions more into their fight is only a waste of time, $, and lives. Once Russia acquired the nukes they have decades ago they only go down if everybody goes down. That’s why we don’t go to war with Russia and or China. MO
I'm fully aware that there is a large sect that won't believe this: But, Trump is far more self-aware than most give him credit for. He's literally mocked himself for decades, for exactly what he's accused of being. You don't do SNL, for example, w/o being aware of how you're perceived. He's not dumb or insulated.
Putin is every bit an egotistical asshole that Trump is (and more). The difference? Trump has native naysayers. Putin is surrounded by sycophants that never challenge him, for fear of death (literally). Perhaps Trump understands exactly who Putin is?
I think everybody is far-too focused on Trump and not (for example) Zelynskyy and the smoke that surrounded his contacts prior to the WH meeting and/or the clear shenanigans that surrounded his obvious plan to submarine something he had already agreed to.
I'd provide links, but those that should read them, ignore them and/or pretend they don't exist. I'd love to be challenged on this. I'm begging, actually.
So much of this is intuitive. And Trump has that in SpadesI'm fully aware that there is a large sect that won't believe this: But, Trump is far more self-aware than most give him credit for. He's literally mocked himself for decades, for exactly what he's accused of being. You don't do SNL, for example, w/o being aware of how you're perceived. He's not dumb or insulated.
Putin is every bit an egotistical asshole that Trump is (and more). The difference? Trump has native naysayers. Putin is surrounded by sycophants that never challenge him, for fear of death (literally). Perhaps Trump understands exactly who Putin is?
I think everybody is far-too focused on Trump and not (for example) Zelynskyy and the smoke that surrounded his contacts prior to the WH meeting and/or the clear shenanigans that surrounded his obvious plan to submarine something he had already agreed to.
I'd provide links, but those that should read them, ignore them and/or pretend they don't exist. I'd love to be challenged on this. I'm begging, actually.
So, any comments on this?
Ukraine is a Democracy, right? Exactly what we are there to defend? Or do we only listen to Zelensky?
Why should the will of the Ukrainian people not be heard? Or is Zelensky the only "voice" that's allowed?
Again, I'll wait for someone to disagree with this, using your own rules.
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So, any comments on this?
Ukraine is a Democracy, right? Exactly what we are there to defend? Or do we only listen to Zelensky?
Why should the will of the Ukrainian people not be heard? Or is Zelensky the only "voice" that's allowed?
Again, I'll wait for someone to disagree with this, using your own rules.
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The entire bot farm at Mrs. Ivanova's Charm School lives on this board.How many Russian trolls are on this board?
Dems trying to blame fashion. Cute.I stand by my assertion that it was an orchestrated ambush.
The first comment Trump makes to the press upon Zelensky’s arrival is the snide remark, “Oh, look, he’s all dressed up today”. That’s setting the table.
Then Brian Glenn, One America’s Voice correspondent and rumored MTG paramour, asks what is by any measure a rude and disrespectfully communicated question using a tone that I’ve never heard from a WH reporter. He was chiding and lecturing a head of state. How did that happen?
Of course, not only was Elon not wearing a suit or tie during the recent press event at the WH, he was wearing a baseball cap and a tee shirt. Also, his child was running around interrupting the event while directing comments to the president and no one on the right said a word about it.
Diplomacy is a dance of the spoken and implied. Even Trump knows this.Dems trying to blame fashion. Cute.
Diplomacy is a dance of the spoken and implied. Even Trump knows this.
Trump spent the weeks prior to this meeting absolutely trashing Zelensky. Not reasonable criticism, but lies about support at home, lies about US funding (that continue), accusations of being a dictator, and most importantly that Zelensky and Ukraine were responsible for the war and thus responsible for ending it.
The first statement out of the President's mouth upon Zelensky's arrival that could be heard by the press was an insult regarding Zelensky's attire. This is the exact same attire that Zelensky has been wearing to every international meeting since the war began, chosen to show solidarity with his troops and people back home.
Churchill made the exact same choice for the exact same reasons on multiple occasions.
If you think that little bitch of a right-wing troll masquerading as a reporter just spontaneously attacked Zelensky in such a disrespectful way on his own accord you are deluded. That was all part of building the narrative of disrespect and lack of appreciation as a contributor to withdrawing aid and support.
Let's see how Trump characterizes Zelensky and Ukraine tonight. I'd be willing to wager a tidy sum that the manufactured theme of disrespect is going to be a focus to help justify Trump's abandonment of Ukraine.
...to help justify Trump's abandonment of Ukraine.
Diplomacy is a dance of the spoken and implied. Even Trump knows this.
Trump spent the weeks prior to this meeting absolutely trashing Zelensky. Not reasonable criticism, but lies about support at home, lies about US funding (that continue), accusations of being a dictator, and most importantly that Zelensky and Ukraine were responsible for the war and thus responsible for ending it.
The first statement out of the President's mouth upon Zelensky's arrival that could be heard by the press was an insult regarding Zelensky's attire. This is the exact same attire that Zelensky has been wearing to every international meeting since the war began, chosen to show solidarity with his troops and people back home.
Churchill made the exact same choice for the exact same reasons on multiple occasions.
If you think that little bitch of a right-wing troll masquerading as a reporter just spontaneously attacked Zelensky in such a disrespectful way on his own accord you are deluded. That was all part of building the narrative of disrespect and lack of appreciation as a contributor to withdrawing aid and support.
Let's see how Trump characterizes Zelensky and Ukraine tonight. I'd be willing to wager a tidy sum that the manufactured theme of disrespect is going to be a focus to help justify Trump's abandonment of Ukraine.
74% of Americans are ready for this war to end as is. I think most of us are reasy to be done w Ukraine.Diplomacy is a dance of the spoken and implied. Even Trump knows this.
Trump spent the weeks prior to this meeting absolutely trashing Zelensky. Not reasonable criticism, but lies about support at home, lies about US funding (that continue), accusations of being a dictator, and most importantly that Zelensky and Ukraine were responsible for the war and thus responsible for ending it.
The first statement out of the President's mouth upon Zelensky's arrival that could be heard by the press was an insult regarding Zelensky's attire. This is the exact same attire that Zelensky has been wearing to every international meeting since the war began, chosen to show solidarity with his troops and people back home.
Churchill made the exact same choice for the exact same reasons on multiple occasions.
If you think that little bitch of a right-wing troll masquerading as a reporter just spontaneously attacked Zelensky in such a disrespectful way on his own accord you are deluded. That was all part of building the narrative of disrespect and lack of appreciation as a contributor to withdrawing aid and support.
Let's see how Trump characterizes Zelensky and Ukraine tonight. I'd be willing to wager a tidy sum that the manufactured theme of disrespect is going to be a focus to help justify Trump's abandonment of Ukraine.
TRUMP WAS MEAN TO THE LITTLE GREEN MAN!