I try to never forget we all part of Dawgnation.You are much more patient than I am.
Ukraine
- Thread starter willdup
- Start date
Maybe they know there is zero chance peace happens if Z doesn’t accept admittedly tough realities in terms of his chances to win….and what Putin is willing to give to end the War.
In the meantime, a thousand 18-35 year olds die every week. What happened to the party of peace?
All of this is 100% on Zelensky.
He went off script and tried to embarrass the US into doing more when he was there to sign the already negotiated deal. That was a signing ceremony, not a negotiation.
He still hasn't figured out it's not his choice, that's the problem. He went to breakfast with Democrats. They blew a bunch of hot air in his ear. He went in there with an inflated sense of bargaining power, thinking he was gonna tell Trump that he’s gonna give him security and money by acting like an entitled child.
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I stand by my assertion that it was an orchestrated ambush.
The first comment Trump makes to the press upon Zelensky’s arrival is the snide remark, “Oh, look, he’s all dressed up today”. That’s setting the table.
Then Brian Glenn, One America’s Voice correspondent and rumored MTG paramour, asks what is by any measure a rude and disrespectfully communicated question using a tone that I’ve never heard from a WH reporter. He was chiding and lecturing a head of state. How did that happen?
Of course, not only was Elon not wearing a suit or tie during the recent press event at the WH, he was wearing a baseball cap and a tee shirt. Also, his child was running around interrupting the event while directing comments to the president and no one on the right said a word about it.
Everything blew up at the very end of the photo op. It was Zelensky's behavior that Vance was responding to. How the heck is that an "ambush"? Nobody forced Zelensky to act like a petulant child and try to re-negotiate a deal he had already agreed to, in front of the press, instead of behind closed-doors.
That's on him. Ambush? It was self-immolation.
So, a sarcastic aside is evidence of some grand conspiracy of a set-up? An "ambush" is exactly what Trump wouldn't want....a diplomatic end to the war is a WIN for him. Your argument makes no sense.
Was that an official, diplomatic event with the gravitas of potentially ending a war? Of course not. What a silly attempt at drawing a parallel. But, you referenced Harry Sisson of all people. Come on man.
Also, a real picture:
To think Putin runs Trump is just stupid talk…When you have a leader like Putin w/the nukes he has at hand, it’s idiotic to think Ukraine or whoever could stop Russia in this case. Until the USA can stop his nukes there’s no way in hell we should or would all out fight Russia…that is vice versa. We both along with China are pretty much kings of the planet. Russia at this point is not going to be defeated. Z should have negotiated a way to keep what he could of Ukraine, but without the USA/ Europe there is zero chance Z can defeat or stop Russia aggression. Putin will only lose so much until he takes the war to another level. Throwing $billions more into their fight is only a waste of time, $, and lives. Once Russia acquired the nukes they have decades ago they only go down if everybody goes down. That’s why we don’t go to war with Russia and or China. MO
OMG, Trump is Joffrey. It’s so clear now!
www.instagram.com
Jon Gridge on Instagram: "Especially after the “long live the king” crap. 🤦🏻♂️👻🤷🏻♂️#jonnyg"
928K likes, 5,096 comments - _jonnyg1 on February 20, 2025: "Especially after the “long live the king” crap. 🤦🏻♂️👻🤷🏻♂️#jonnyg".
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The Cold War was cold because both sides had nukes, just like now. No one, least of all Ukraine, is suggesting that they are going to conquer Russia. That’s not the end game.
They want as much of their territory back as they can get and they want real security guarantees for the West that will stop Russia from rolling in to Ukraine again the next time they feel sufficiently threatened by a former satellite state now functioning as a democracy.
I want them both to lose. I hate them both. But, do you know the reason why Putin invaded? Putin is a POS, to be sure, but Zelenskyy was being provocative. Doesn’t justify war, of course, but don't act like Ukraine is lily-white.
A thousand times, this. We already all agree with you, libs, Putin is, indeed, a big mean stinky poo-poo head.
However, to suggest that Trump is just doing Putin’s bidding here is just asinine tin-foil hat TDS stuff.
Because, and here’s the fun part, Putin has demonstrated by this point in this war that no amount of sacrifice of soldiers and resources is too great to achieve the ends that he wants to achieve. He is absolutely not going to stop unless a peace deal is achieved.
So this all ends in one of three fashions. Ukraine isn’t winning this war, so there’s no option 4:
1) a peace deal is made, Russia gains some territory, and the U.S. establishes some skin in the game on the rare-earth mineral deal, thereby establishing some skin in the game, recouping some of the money we’ve spent, all without committing troops and escalating things.
2) Putin, Zelenskyy, or both simply refuse to make any peace deal, and the senseless slaughter continues until Putin takes all of Ukraine, and any shot at democracy in the region, which you guys all really really seem to want to see, happen, as do we, vanishes.
3) Trump and NATO go all cowboy, gotta defend Democracy at any cost, and World War III is on.
Since Putin doesn’t appear that he’s willing to voluntarily just withdraw his troops from Ukraine, and seems willing to do whatever is necessary to take the entire country, how exactly is trying to broker a deal here, and preserve some semblance of democracy in the region, doing Putin’s bidding?
Patience, Grasshopper. It’ll turn out to be the exact opposite of that.
Sorry, I know that GOP politicians are afraid of y’all’s bullying, grandstanding, and cancel culture, but Putin just isn’t a guy where we can put our hands on our collective hips and shake our heads at him disapprovingly, and he’s suddenly going to do our bidding.
There will either be the democracy y’all claim to cherish so much in the region, or there will not be.
It’s exponentially more likely to be the case if a peace deal gets done now. It will certainly not be the case if the deal does not get done.
Russia has long wanted that deep water port in the Crimea. They’re willing to ride the light brigade into the valley of death to achieve that. Over and over and over and over until it happens. They now have it. Trump is trying to provide an off ramp here that works for everyone. Putin, the big mean stinky poo poo head, get some of what he wants, but not all of it. The Ukrainian people get to stop experiencing this horror. The United States gets to quit pissing money down a hole. The United States taxpayers get to recoup some of their money. The Ukrainian people will benefit some from that deal as well.
Y’all TDS is going to get us into freaking World War III.
Claim I have BDS if you want.
The Big Guy was far too busy trying to manage his and his crackhead kid’s money laundering scheme in Ukraine to try to find a peaceful solution to this conflict that has been burgeoning for quite some time.
Putin: “Ve vant to ship all our resources out of the deep water port in the Crimea., all duty free”
Biden: “Son of a bitch. Let’s hold a democracy (love that democracy!!!) my Democrat brethren (and sisters) hostage until they fire the prosecutor investigating Burisma and my son,
Thank God we have a President who has his head on a swivel, so to speak.
Thank God the ethically and intellectually challenged JRB is no longer the leader of the free world.
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but Elon wasn’t there with his hand out begging for help. Also, I’ve seen Elon in a suit plenty of times. Zelensky, never.
You lost the plot there.
Yes Ukraine is fighting on the front lines against an authoritarian aggressor but they have never been a critical American ally. Russia took Crimea from them in 2014 under Obama without anything other than some umbrage and a few sanctions.
Most thought Putin was going to walk in and take the rest of the country three years ago and then were surprised at how ineffective and poorly planned their special operation was so the west started shipping them weapons and upped the sanctions hoping Putin/Russia would crumble under their weight. It didn't happen and now we're getting to the end game.
It's taken three years but Putin created a war economy and using superior numbers to take territory in exchange for Russian lives in a war of attrition. Nobody should be surprised at the tactic or the Russian political leadership's inclination to sacrifice lives to achieve a military goal. Ukraine will run out of men before they run out of weapons unless there is some change in the equation that puts western forces directly in the conflict.
US boots in Ukraine is not happening and opens the door to WW III. Anybody should understand we can't be supporting direct operations against Russia against targets inside Russian territory. Even Biden put restrictions on using the offensive capabilities of our weapons. This isn't some proxy Viet Nam or Middle East conflict. This will seen as an invasion by US lead NATO and an existential attack on the Russian motherland. We could get into battlefield nuclear strikes that escalate in the worst case. The Russian people will rally around Putin and they will throw everything they have at our troops. It will be bloody.
It's a sad situation for Ukraine but they aren't NATO members and they are not vital to our national interest and never have been. They're a pawn that we've been using to punish and weaken Putin. Putin is a ruthless dictator but he's not trying to spread world communism and overrun Western Europe like the USSR back in the cold war. The weaponry and risk calculus that could lead to strikes on our soil have changed drastically. Those oceans don't protect us like they did during WWII. If we have to fight Putin at some point, which is only speculation, then the Ukraine is not the hill we need to be dying on. If the EU takes their own defense seriously, they've got way plenty people and resources to build their own deterrent threat instead of dragging us into a regional conflict on the Russian border. Over three decades since the wall came down, it's high time they took over their own defense or at least became a really serous challenge to attack without us.
Hypothetically speaking, what do you think we'd be doing if Russia suddenly sent troops to Mexico? That would be inviting trouble. We look poorly on them poking around Venezuela and almost went to war over Cuba.
People need to understand the reality of the situation on the ground there. Ukraine wants us to put boots on the ground there to save them because the rest of EU doesn't have the capabilities. They are not vital enough to our national interest to risk a global conflict. Their best hope is a brokered ceasefire because that at least gives them a chance to fight another day. The mineral deal is a unseemly but there's some logic in the idea that at least we'd have some interest in being there and the Russians might be reticent to shoot at our operations. With some guarantees that Ukraine wouldn't join NATO or maybe the EU then maybe that keeps them around to see what happens to Putin and Russia over the next 20 years.
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Unlike most of the drivel on this board, you actually bring up some good points. It’s a nuanced conversation however, which many on this board and in the oval office fail to grasp.
Why would Putin accept a ceasefire that put western troops on his border? He will take the whole country by attrition given time. It's not money or missiles. It's manpower. Ukraine is just going to run out at some point and I would suspect when it starts to happen it will be a dam break and end pretty quickly. At the end of the day, what do we gain from our investment? Nothing other than bleeding Putin down manpower while he's built an economy based on war and potentially made him more dangerous? You don't really turn those things off without some kind of offramp that lets them reintegrate in the world economy in a peaceful manner.
I don't see any scenario where putting US troops in armed conflict on the Russian border ends well. We'd have to target Russian sites to defend our troops and that is basically us invading their territory. That's insanity with a country armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons that thinks their under existential threat by a foreign power.
I have never cared at all for Trump but a ceasefire that at least gives Ukraine some time to breath and still exist, and the EU to figure out how to stand on their own two feet may be as good as it gets. No guarantee that he doesn't attack again in a few years but if he is really planning to do that, then he's likely not going to agree to anything that makes his job harder by allowing western forces to patrol a ceasefire line. Honestly I don't know why he would even agree to a ceasefire at all given his willingness to let every soldier in Russia die to achieve his goals.
I think the real carrot for Putin would be an agreement with the US for a path away from the sanctions they're under. That's dangerous in it's own right and he'd have to be watched like a hawk. Rewarding bad behavior is unseemly but the pariah thing may make them more dangerous if building weapons is the only way their economy continues to function.
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A couple of very good posts brother. Really good. I couldn’t agree more. This isn’t going to happen by any conventional way. This is way more about Russia-USA relations than Ukraine.
I worry about Putin pushing the envelope because of the way people perceive his and trump’s relationship. I could see him trying to use this to his advantage. Don’t trust any of them.
I'm fully aware that there is a large sect that won't believe this: But, Trump is far more self-aware than most give him credit for. He's literally mocked himself for decades, for exactly what he's accused of being. You don't do SNL, for example, w/o being aware of how you're perceived. He's not dumb or insulated.
Putin is every bit an egotistical asshole that Trump is (and more). The difference? Trump has native naysayers. Putin is surrounded by sycophants that never challenge him, for fear of death (literally). Perhaps Trump understands exactly who Putin is?
I think everybody is far-too focused on Trump and not (for example) Zelynskyy and the smoke that surrounded his contacts prior to the WH meeting and/or the clear shenanigans that surrounded his obvious plan to submarine something he had already agreed to.
I'd provide links, but those that should read them, ignore them and/or pretend they don't exist. I'd love to be challenged on this. I'm begging, actually.
Haha. I know. Saying it gets the same responses. Trump is a Putin puppet. Trump can do no wrong etc. Would be very hard to debate you on this topic. The other day’s circus did lead to Trump telling zelensky he is only aligned with one country’s interests. Which I appreciated hearing him say it.
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Thanks, it's because I don't post something w/o providing evidence or knowing where to find it, if challenged. I've never claimed to be a smart guy, but I know how to support an argument. My biggest frustration here is that when I provide what is clearly (imo) irrefutable data or logic...it's usually ignored w/ no attempt to debate or engage.
...and the same flawed argument will be posted again, even after I've already addressed it. I hate repeating myself.
So, any comments on this?
Ukraine is a Democracy, right? Exactly what we are there to defend? Or do we only listen to Zelensky?
Why should the will of the Ukrainian people not be heard? Or is Zelensky the only "voice" that's allowed?
Again, I'll wait for someone to disagree with this, using your own rules.
Ukraine is a Democracy, right? Exactly what we are there to defend? Or do we only listen to Zelensky?
Why should the will of the Ukrainian people not be heard? Or is Zelensky the only "voice" that's allowed?
Again, I'll wait for someone to disagree with this, using your own rules.
So, any comments on this?
Ukraine is a Democracy, right? Exactly what we are there to defend? Or do we only listen to Zelensky?
Why should the will of the Ukrainian people not be heard? Or is Zelensky the only "voice" that's allowed?
Again, I'll wait for someone to disagree with this, using your own rules.
So, any comments on this?
Ukraine is a Democracy, right? Exactly what we are there to defend? Or do we only listen to Zelensky?
Why should the will of the Ukrainian people not be heard? Or is Zelensky the only "voice" that's allowed?
Again, I'll wait for someone to disagree with this, using your own rules.
Full text:
The events of the past hours - the public humiliation of Zelensky at the White House, Trump’s acknowledgment of Zelensky's diplomatic failure, and Ukraine’s loss of unconditional U.S. support - have marked the final act of the regime's collapse.
But Zelensky has not only failed in foreign policy - he has driven the country into a state where anyone who disagrees with his course faces repression.
I was thrown into prison not for a crime, but for speaking the truth. The very truth that Trump has now stated: Zelensky has lost. He has no cards left to play, he is running out of soldiers, and the country has reached a dead end due to his stubbornness.
I demand the immediate convening of an emergency session of the Parliament, where Parliament must initiate impeachment proceedings against Zelensky for:
- the failure of foreign policy, which has led to Ukraine's international isolation and the loss of allied support.
- a lost war, which is the result of incompetent leadership and catastrophic decisions.
- violations of citizens' rights and the usurpation of power, manifested in the suppression of the opposition, persecution of dissenters, and authoritarian rule.
I appeal to all Members of the Ukrainian Parliament: stop wasting time, stop waiting! Zelensky is bankrupt. Zelensky is not Ukraine! It is time to put him on trial. If he cannot offer a real way out of the crisis, then it is up to us to make fateful decisions.
Zelensky thought he could rule Ukraine through force. Now he has lost.
Ukraine must decide - will it continue its freefall into the abyss, or will it begin the fight for true independence?
Alexander Dubinsky
Member of the Ukrainian Parliament
The entire bot farm at Mrs. Ivanova's Charm School lives on this board.
Diplomacy is a dance of the spoken and implied. Even Trump knows this.
Trump spent the weeks prior to this meeting absolutely trashing Zelensky. Not reasonable criticism, but lies about support at home, lies about US funding (that continue), accusations of being a dictator, and most importantly that Zelensky and Ukraine were responsible for the war and thus responsible for ending it.
The first statement out of the President's mouth upon Zelensky's arrival that could be heard by the press was an insult regarding Zelensky's attire. This is the exact same attire that Zelensky has been wearing to every international meeting since the war began, chosen to show solidarity with his troops and people back home.
Churchill made the exact same choice for the exact same reasons on multiple occasions.
If you think that little bitch of a right-wing troll masquerading as a reporter just spontaneously attacked Zelensky in such a disrespectful way on his own accord you are deluded. That was all part of building the narrative of disrespect and lack of appreciation as a contributor to withdrawing aid and support.
Let's see how Trump characterizes Zelensky and Ukraine tonight. I'd be willing to wager a tidy sum that the manufactured theme of disrespect is going to be a focus to help justify Trump's abandonment of Ukraine.
So, as the photo op is literally wrapping up, Zelensky decides to debate ending the war "diplomatically", as had already been agreed upon...instead of discussing his issues behind closed doors (like 99% of diplomatic negotiations)? If you're going to accuse a "little bitch of a right-wing troll masquerading as a reporter" for being part of some set-up, then you'd be deluded not to note Zelensky's meal with Democrats immediately before his meeting with Trump.
Zelensky clearly lacked diplomatic tact at a critical time. He misjudged the room (or acted that way on purpose) and the Democrats can't keep their stories straight:
Also, any "abandonment" is clearly a choice that Zelensky makes. He has a way to end the War and is choosing not to do so. He does not have any right for further, unending support from the US.
74% of Americans are ready for this war to end as is. I think most of us are reasy to be done w Ukraine.
VANCE: "Zelenskyy, he goes to Europe and a lot of our European friends puff him up. They say you know, you're a freedom fighter. You need to keep fighting forever."
“Fighting forever with what? With whose money? With whose ammunition, and with whose lives? The president is actually taking a much more realistic perspective and saying, this can't go on forever."
"We can't fund this thing forever. The Ukrainians can't fight forever. So let's bring this thing to a peaceful settlement."
"The whole charade has always been about power and profit, not principles. Europe applauds from the sidelines, the defense industry cashes in, and Americans go broke funding a war with no strategy and no endpoint. Meanwhile, Zelensky plays the brave hero while canceling elections and running a glorified money laundering operation."
“Fighting forever with what? With whose money? With whose ammunition, and with whose lives? The president is actually taking a much more realistic perspective and saying, this can't go on forever."
"We can't fund this thing forever. The Ukrainians can't fight forever. So let's bring this thing to a peaceful settlement."
"The whole charade has always been about power and profit, not principles. Europe applauds from the sidelines, the defense industry cashes in, and Americans go broke funding a war with no strategy and no endpoint. Meanwhile, Zelensky plays the brave hero while canceling elections and running a glorified money laundering operation."
